Treat or not? Opinions

[dbartco]

My long struggle with parasites in my FOWLR is still ongoing. Long story....

 

My remaining fish have been in copper for 15 days (initially thought velvet). No signs or symtoms of the "dusting" since I put them in copper. But, 7 days into treatment, a fish scraping done at BRK inder microscope and sent to CA confirmed Brooklynella. Copper supposedly no worky. Fish all eating fine, look fine, no apparent signs of stress right now. Yes, the one that brought the disease is still alive....

 

Do I dip with the formalin now and stress the remaining fish more or not? I am taking out of the copper tonight, and curious what dips I should do, or just remove the cooper. How stressful REALLY are formalin dips. Many are cautioning me not to mess with that stuff as does more harm than good.

 

(All in dips etc... done in qt tanks, and main system going fallow for 8-10 weeks)

[Black Mammoth]

I don't really know too much about the fish diseases...I usually have F&F help me out. With that said, is it possible that you can treat them by lowering your salinity? I've found that hypo and copper helps me, but I know that you said that the copper doesn't do you much good with this disease. I'm not sure if hypo will help.

[dbartco]

It is not that it doesnt seem to have done no good, it is just that Brooknella supposedly is not affected by copper. Fomalin is about the only treatment, but it is hard on fishies.

 

Both Sean and Bryron have been extremely helpful in diagnosing/identifying/treating. They are part of the crew cautioning me about the severity of the Fomalin. Just getting other opinions of anyone that may have used.

[flowerseller]

Have you considered malachite green and hypo?

[90OcReef]

Doug, I look at it this way....

 

If you are going to lose the fish anyway, which in the case of brooklynella it is almost a certainty! I'd treat with the formalin. It is nasty stuff, and i have only ever used it once more recently when our fish had a very nasty undertermined disease. But, when the fish is going to die regardless, it can only potentially help them. I would suck it up and try it. It's better than sitting back and watching them slowly suffer. With brooklynella, it moves so fast that you're just waisting time trying other methods like hypo and such. Good Luck!! and these are just my opinions. I hope they pull through for you!

 

-Jess

Edited May 1, 2007 by 90OcReef

[dbartco]

My debate is really that they are not in the downward spiral. I don't see any effects right now. Seem fine. I guess if they are "just fine", they should be strong enough to go through the treatment.

 

They went through freshwater dips and hypo (had about .013) at the beginning and slowly been coming up throughout (evaporation). Now about 1.02

 

 

Thanks guys, any other $.02

[rsaavedra]

Thanks guys, any other $.02

 

My .02

[traveller7]

It is a rare committed clown keeper that has not dealt with brook and formalin. There are a few breeding pairs of clowns in WAMAS that would have been dead without formalin baths.

 

Tricks with formalin: Heavy aeration, pH monitoring during the dip/bath, proper dosage, and fresh medicine.

 

I have not found formalin in the QT to be successful. Bath/Dip is the only path I take any longer. I did have one tang go into shock within minutes of a FW+Formalin bath. I have not experienced another loss I can remotely contribute to formalin.

 

If I understand the current situation correctly: Someone diagnosed Brook via scraping and there was no treatment for it. Without knowing the whole procedure as performed, I can't tell if you are safe from ich, amyloo, or brook, but those fish would not go into my display without a 5min formalin dip.

 

Best case they are fine already, worst case if performed properly you introduce shock. Likely case, you are helping to prevent unknowns from entering a fallow system.

Edited May 1, 2007 by traveller7

[90OcReef]

From what I understand, If and When you see Brooklynella, it would likely be too late to even help a fish. George had a Blue Ring Angel come in with brooklynella about a year and a half ago, he put it in his 280 and all the fish were beating him up. He removed it from the display and within the next day or so there were signs of Brooklynella, after that, the fish was dead within 24hrs, along with a Golden Angel, Possom Wrasse, and a few other oddities....

 

-Jess

[dbartco]

I have not found formalin in the QT to be successful. Bath/Dip is the only path I take any longer.

At recommended dosage? With freshwater or qt saltwater?

 

If I understand the current situation correctly: Someone diagnosed Brook via scraping and there was no treatment for it.

 

I left the day I found out the id for a business trip. Did not want to treat and leave the wife with dead fish. Again, they were eating and showed no distress at the time. BRK would have had to order so I got the formalin elsewhere. Diagnosed fish was a chromis that must have taken the scraping process hard, and died at BRK.

 

Thanks Scott

 

 

 

From what I understand, If and When you see Brooklynella, it would likely be too late to even help a fish. George had a Blue Ring Angel come in with brooklynella about a year and a half ago, he put it in his 280 and all the fish were beating him up. He removed it from the display and within the next day or so there were signs of Brooklynella, after that, the fish was dead within 24hrs, along with a Golden Angel, Possom Wrasse, and a few other oddities....

 

-Jess

 

 

Oh, I lost a ton immediately as well. 4 out of the 10 or so survive. If I didn't have the positive ID, I probably would have thought velvet the whole time as the copper qt seems like it helped.

[traveller7]

At recommended dosage? With freshwater or qt saltwater?

I try to stick to the treatment guidelines here as much as possible, adding the pH drop concern into the mix:

 

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-j...ooklynella.html

 

If you have formalin on hand, what is the percentage?

[dbartco]

typical 37%.

 

also I read "fresh medication". ? Shelf life of formalin?

[traveller7]

typical 37%.

 

also I read "fresh medication". ? Shelf life of formalin?

I have hit some bad cases with late starts as high as 20drops in 1/2gallon, but I don't recommend that high a dosage.

 

This article seems to strike the balance and still be effective at 20drops per gallon, a good read regardless:

http://216.168.47.67/cis-fishnet/seascope/99SS1601.htm

 

If I remember correctly, ATJ's site, Noga, etc., use 12 drops per gallon...but you'd want to calculate that to be sure.

 

I keep mine around less then 6 months, protect it from direct sunlight, protect it from heat and cold, and toss it sooner if there are any crystals in the bottle.

 

Keep in mind, I am by no means the "expert" in this area, just one unlucky to dabble in fish which are brook magnets :(

 

Good luck.

Edited May 1, 2007 by traveller7

[traveller7]

Since we are talking brook: Oama has had to deal with it before:

 

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.p...formalin+dosage

 

Most of the dialogue on the treatment pages linked are really geared to treating an active event.

 

Not sure if it is really applicable to your situation Doug.

[dbartco]

thanks for all the linkies. Will do my reading.

[traveller7]

thanks for all the linkies. Will do my reading.

Brook linkies I gots, good advice, well....linkies I gots

[Grav]

To share from experiance.

 

I have had only 1 run in witht this condition in 8 years. Knoce wood.

 

I had a clown that was fighting brook while in QT.

 

I ran hypo at 1.010 I dosed Rally in the QT as directed.

 

I did a tap water FW dip with formalin in a "large dip cup" (I think about a quart of water) 1 to 2 times a day. after a 5 min FW / medicated dip I would give the fish a 20 min SW / med bath.

 

I started with 3 drops. I would areate by hand. I kept increasing the dose as the fish kept getting better but never seemed to fully shake the condition. After a week I dipped once at 8 drops... the fish died that night. Since, as it relates to the brook he was better toward the end than he looked at the start of QT, I assume it was an over dose that was the final straw.

[flowerseller]

Have you considered malachite green and hypo?

[traveller7]

Have you considered malachite green and hypo?

If brook remains, and I am not convinced it does, malachite green and hypo are ineffective.

[flowerseller]

If brook remains, and I am not convinced it does, malachite green and hypo are ineffective.

 

So if the primary infection was bacterial and is not destroyed, then an anti-fungal treatment like malachite green would not be successful in this treatment?

It too needs good aeration but is not nearly as toxic as formalin can be.

They are often used in conjunction but I still like malachite green because it can have the tendancy to pentrate deeper into the fishes tissue and does have anti bacterial properties and is less likely to harm a biological filter. You still need to watch ammonia and nitrite and keep up on aeration, but have found it to be alot more helpful and less risk of OD than guestimating what a fish can handle with just formalin.

 

JMO/E

[traveller7]

That is a different target Chip

 

If we accept Brook as at least 1 confirmed bug, there has been no treatment performed to outright kill it.

 

I have had fish recover, build "immunity/tolerance", and had Brook apparently cycle itself from small populations; but it is a known risk of returning as soon as new fish are added to the existing population.

 

If we do not accept the Brook diagnosis, skip formalin. I can't think of any reason to have Formalin in my house other then Brook.

 

The larger question you bring up, if we have fish in QT, suspect residual bacterial/fungal agents, would malachite green be the first choice? IMHO, no. There are more fish friendly and broad spectrum treatments available for such maladies.

[flowerseller]

Well if showcasing them in formaldehyde is the next possibility,

I believe you're discounting malachite green and it's potential way to early.

[traveller7]

Well if showcasing them in formaldehyde is the next possibility,

I believe you're discounting malachite green and it's potential way to early.

I am not discounting malachite green, Noga, Levy, etc., are discounting malachite green as an effective treatment for Brook. My experience simply supports their conclusions.

[flowerseller]

Agreed, Other than the lab results from CA that I believed you all had discounted, I thought we were on to the secondary issue?

 

Imagine 5-6 years ago you wake up, pour yourself a cup of coffee and settle in to read the forums.

Low and behold there was a post about using heartworm medicine as treatment for red bug.

How many people honestly would have known what red bug was, let alone believed some guy was experimenting/using inceptor from a Vet, to treat?

 

 

I must have been using the formalin in a non ventelated area.

I don't even have anymore since my experiences were less than stellar and may have been OD.

I do use malachite for my pond fish if needed and may not be able to get that soon..

That will be ashame.

[traveller7]

Agreed, Other than the lab results from CA that I believed you all had discounted, I thought we were on to the secondary issue?

I discount the results from the lab based on the apparent impact of the described treatment. The possibility remains open, that brook and another killer were involved, the weak died, the tolerant fish remain. It would be a risk to rule out the diagnosis completely even though the treatments performed are documented as less then effective against brook.

 

IMHO, perform a known effective brook treatment prior to returning fish to the display tank.

 

Imagine 5-6 years ago you wake up, pour yourself a cup of coffee and settle in to read the forums.

Low and behold there was a post about using heartworm medicine as treatment for red bug.

How many people honestly would have known what red bug was, let alone believed some guy was experimenting/using inceptor from a Vet, to treat?

Lets grab a cup of coffee and talk about treating discuss, altums, reptiles, etc., with chocolately flavored erliworm dog wormer a few days back O.o

 

I must have been using the formalin in a non ventelated area.

I don't even have anymore since my experiences were less than stellar and may have been OD.

I do use malachite for my pond fish if needed and may not be able to get that soon..

That will be ashame.

I hear that loud and clear. I am a fan of Malachite use in freshwater. As time goes on, we are going to lose a few more tools in the tool box :(

 

While I really don't want to bring sick fish into my house, I am going to run the hydrogen peroxide gamut against the next bout of water borne bugs. Figure I better get it down to science before we lose all the tools.