Low Alkalinity

[Caribbean Jake]

I been testing my systems and found that alkalinity is low on both of my tanks.  Before going into explaining what steps I have taken let me present my parameters.  This will facilitate a quick response from any observer willing to assist on this issue.  I also read some few posts from May 2004 and Sep 2003 but do not clearly define what results were obtained by using over the counter additives.  I use Oceanic salt and make 10% water changes every two weeks. Also use a RO/DI unit and add PH buffer to raise PH to 8.3 before adding the salt.  Perhaps I should look into this first (clue - may be a problem adding PH buffer before adding salt.)  Anyway.

 

SPG = 1.0245,  NH3/NH4 = 0,  N3 = 0, NO2 = 0, Temp = 76 F, Alk = low, Ca = 420, Phosphate almost 0.  Using 3 x 250W MH lights and 2 x 110 VHO.  125G Tank 72x18x24.  Medium bioload, several SPS, few LPS, few softies.  150 pounds of LR.  Several inverts (shrimps, snails, crabs, stars)

 

I found alkalinity to be low as per Red Sea testing equipment.  The test was conducted 1 hour after the MH lights went off while the VHO's are still on.  Added recommended amount of Red Sea Buffer and re-tested 15 minutes later but results were the same, Alk = low.  I been dosing Kent Ca every day for the last two weeks using recommended dose per Kent Marine products.  Also dose Strontium & Magnesium twice a week together with Iron, Iodine, and Supplemental Elements per manufacturer specifications.  I have Tech CB A & B but never used before.  What shall be use to raise alkalinity.  

1.  Baking Soda?

2. Tech CB  A & B?

3.  Pickling lime with vinegar?

4. any other recommendations?

 

Your assistance and support is greatly appreciated.

Jacob

[GaryL]

im having the same problem the test kits say my ca is 650 my pH is 8.6 and my alk is low. as i have been talking to others i have started using baking soda as a buffer, and dripping kalk. after using the baking soda my alk seem to go up as it wasnt as yellow as it was the day before. i will pick up other test kits to make sure mine are reading correctly. when i built my kalk reactor i stopped using vinegar to mix the kalk. but may restart mixing it before i add it to the reactor. i think it keeps it from prcipitating out.

Jacob after reading this i hope your not as confused as i am  ]]]ugly_tocktock HTH, Gary

[miller]

are you using a calcium reactor ? when youy say your alk is "low" how low is it

[flowerseller]

If you are using a kalk reactor you don't need the vinegar and it doesn't help keep it from parcipitaing out. It just allows more (not a huge amount more but more) to stay in solution a little longer. I don't play buffer roulette. If you replace evaporated water with the kalk reactor water it will balance itself out and the PH will rise. Regular water exchanges also. If you are adding a liquid calcium product (calcium chloride) will get into the buffer, chorlide balance it may never get it even. Stop the liquid 9chloride) for 1 week and just add calcium hydroxide, kalkwasser from the reactor for all your evap. That will even it out.

BTW, if you mix your SW up a few days ahead, don't add buffer, the mix has it in it and with a few days stiring, it will come up to a usable PH with out adding more buffer. If you have a sand bed, the buffer/liquid mix can lock it together.

I am sleep deprived so if this doesn't make sense, call me on Sunday after xmas and I should be back together then.

Happy Holidays to you all.

HTH - Chip

[Caribbean Jake]

I do not have a CA or Kalk reactor.  I dose liquid CA and will consider going back to pickling lime and vinegar if I can not achive a stable Alk.  So using baking soda should stabilize Alk, but then what?  Keep using baking soda for the rest of my life or use some other dosing possion?

Jacob

[Guest HVF21221]

I like to use Kent Super dKH to raise alk. You can use this nice calculator sent to me by Randy Holmes Farley. It helps you raise either calcium or alkalinity.

 

Reef Chemistry Calculator

 

Howard

[michaelg]

A couple comments here.  

The kalk should keep the levels where they are, as it is balanced.  You are off balance right now, so you do need to correct it.  First off, your problem comes from 2 sources- the oceanic salt is a little low on alk, and high on magnesium.  The second comes from adding the calcium solution, without adding an equal amount of carbonates to the system to keep the alk up.  I suggested to Gary to use sodium bicarbonate to raise it up.  You can use the carbonate portion of the kent CB if you want, but then you will have extra calcium at the end, so I would probably just use bicarbonate for now to get it evened out.

After adding, you will want to wait overnight to test the water again.  15 minutes isn't long enough to see it change.  With alk, time of day doesn't have an effect like pH does, just try to measure it around the same time for consistency.  Switch over to the kent CB now, and don't use the calcium.  You need to keep the calcium where it is at, but raise up the alk.  So adding equal amounts of CB will give some of both, and the extra bicarb will raise the alk.  

 

It is unfortunate that they even sell the buffers and calcium solutions seperately.  Unfortunately they don't even state on the bottles how much equals how much of the other- you have to extrapolate from what is on there to figure it out- and do a lot of testing along the way.

[Caribbean Jake]

I used bicarbonate to stabilize the Alk.  I do not have a Kalk reactor (whish I could have made it to the building party but work kept me out f town).  The CA test came out at 550 ppm this morning and Alk at 70 ppm.  I do have a brand new bottle of Kent buffer dHK that I might consider using.  Is that a good idea?  Or should I go to Tech CB directly?

 

By the way I posted the following question to three LFS (Marine, Reef, Super).  

 

Should I use Baking Soda to raise Alk in my tank?

And all responded the same way.  NO.  Now I am really confused cause Bowmans writes on page 347 of his Coral book that you could use it, and we have posts that say some had without problems.

[GaryL]

IMO sodium bicarbonate = $0.99 name brand buffers = more $ not sure if this is the thought process but they all sell name brand kalk too, and pickling lime or the kalk that was ordered cheap (inexspensivley) in a group order, they dont carry that.

even if you search RC and other places there are recipes that use baking soda that are used by scientist: randy holmes-farley in which michaelg posted in DIY buffers. so i trust those guys over the store guys, even though i really like them. and they do give good advice, and as this hobby goes, most people say there is no wrong way, everyone has a different idea to acheive the same goal. I am learning as i go, so........i just hope i do the right thing, and with the advice from WAMAS i have no doubt i will

[michaelg]

Sodium bicarbonate is the main ingredient in commercial buffers.  Perhaps the stores are not aware of this and think that reef buffers are something magical, to be honest I don't know.  There is a small amount of sodium carbonate and some borate in there as well, but for routine use and some water changes, these are not critical.

I have been making my own buffers for years now when I'm not too lazy, and never had any problems from using arm and hamor baking soda.  As a rule of thumb for myself, if it is considered "food safe" grade, whether it is a chemical or plasticware, I consider it safe for my tank.  Going this route is not for everyone and if you are uncomfortable with it, then by all means use a commercial product.

 

Jake, as you have the bottle of buffer, I would go ahead and use that.  After you have the alk level up, then switch over to using equal amounts of the 2 part solutions.

[Lee Stearns]

Raising Calcium via any form of Calcium chloride- be it name brands or the DIY pure DOW Ice flakes that Randy Holmes-Farley reccomends will eat into your buffer and lowers Alkalinity.

 

To raise alkalinity- you add a buffer either comercial or the again DIY Randy Holmes-Farlety approved arm and hammer washing soda or Baking soda- but go very easy as you can spike alkalinity easily.

 

To avoid being out of balance with your calcium or Alkalinity while trying to maintain a stable PH (8.1-8.3) balance. Most drip in Kalk because PH will drop over time.(there is a natural day night PH cycle associated with photosynthesis of corals and algeas) There is a steady small drop in PH as each day passes. The inverse arrangement between Alk and Calcium(addung one lowers the other) is why so many preach adding only balanced additives. Here is where a pH monitor is so important when dripping this Kalk.

 

Kalkwasser, or any form of balanced two part additives (Bionic being one) usually raises PH balancing Calcium input with alkalinity so that neither are off- the main thing is that you can raise PH too high by adding too much- The standard DIY balanced additive is Pickling lime (Balls being one) bought in the summer at several food chains. Many in the club picked up a lifetime supply last year getting mississippi lime. Some automate the Kalk(pickling lime) by setting up a "Kalk reactor" or Neilson reactor which just automates the stiring of the Kalk and adds a water top off function so that as water evaporates in the sump it is replaced with fresh RO/DI water and kalk. This maintaines not only the salinity level, but the Ph at near constant levels. There are several easily set up drip systems that can handle this fuction easily without any real expense.

 

The only reason to add Calcium Chloride or any of the various Calcium additives which bumps up the calcium levels in a tank- is because SPS, LPS, and coraline algeas can use more calcium than the balanced Kalk can drip into your system- And most strive for accelerated growth  of these items. You can do this with the DIY calcium chloride additives, or name brand Kent ca, super ca, ect. but you will lower the alkalinity. Some add a bit of vinegar to their Kalk (pikling lime) to get a higher calcium yeild whichis fairly safe and more than most tanks would need.

 

To avoid these lowering calcium levels some automate thier systems with a calcium reactor (not to be confused with the above relatively simple Kalk reactors(Neilson) These Calcium reactors are relatively complex with CO2 bubling at a set rate through a medium to add calcium to the tank- My first reaction is that you would have to have a very SPS heavy calcium growth load to need one- I personally will continue to bump calcium with Calcium clhloride and measure Alk. Now if ther was only a simple realtivey cheap electronic Alk and Ca monitor life would be sweet!

Jake hope this puts into terms what you are stuggling with. See you next month when we make our DIY auto-top off devices.

Regards

[Caribbean Jake]

Lee, Michael, and everyone.  

Thank you so much for your support.  I can not wait to get the top off building party on the way and go ahead get a Kalk reactor afterwars to automate this proess and just concentrate on minor meassurements.

 

Recap:  Low Alkalinity.  Use Baking Soda (arm & Hammer) to stabilize your system once.  Based on Bowman Coral book the rate is 25mg per each 50 gal of water or equal to a teaspoon of baking soda per every 50 gal of water.   Once Alk is stable use tech CB to keep PH, Alk and CA at constant levels if not using a Kalk reactor and/or CA reactor.  If using a Kal or CA reactor then keep monitorinig Alk levels and adjust dose as neede.

 

Hope my experience and documentation of such event can be used by other members facing similar situations.

 

Jacob