Return Pump too Powerfull (noise and micro-bubble

[elm66]

Good day,

 

I am new to the hobby and bought a complete 120 gallons tank from a local person that decided to exit the hobby after loosing most of his corals. The 120gallons as a sump/filter (bioballs/ceramics) in the stand below. Today the return sump pump stopped functionning. I tried to find the specs without much success. It was a pond pump purchased at Lowes and not sold anymore, anywhere.

I called a LFS and was told that a MAG-12 would be adequate for my tank size. I connected it and got two problems:

* the spashing noise is extremely high

* a lot of microbubbles across the tank.

 

I, therefore, have 2 questions:

1. Is this pump too powerfull for the tank

2. Is there a way to reduce the noise and the amount of bubbles generated. Syphon proof is a requirement.

 

I would appreciate any help on thta matter.

 

Thank you

 

Eric

[F&Fmgr]

Good day,

eric-

 

is the pump submerged in the sump, or externally mounted

 

Sean

 

I am new to the hobby and bought a complete 120 gallons tank from a local person that decided to exit the hobby after loosing most of his corals. The 120gallons as a sump/filter (bioballs/ceramics) in the stand below. Today the return sump pump stopped functionning. I tried to find the specs without much success. It was a pond pump purchased at Lowes and not sold anymore, anywhere.

I called a LFS and was told that a MAG-12 would be adequate for my tank size. I connected it and got two problems:

* the spashing noise is extremely high

* a lot of microbubbles across the tank.

 

I, therefore, have 2 questions:

1. Is this pump too powerfull for the tank

2. Is there a way to reduce the noise and the amount of bubbles generated. Syphon proof is a requirement.

 

I would appreciate any help on thta matter.

 

Thank you

 

Eric

[funnyguy911]

do you have a ball valve on the return you can turn down the flow, if you have one..

[emissary]

I am new to the hobby and bought a complete 120 gallons tank from a local person that decided to exit the hobby after loosing most of his corals. The 120gallons as a sump/filter (bioballs/ceramics) in the stand below. Today the return sump pump stopped functionning. I tried to find the specs without much success. It was a pond pump purchased at Lowes and not sold anymore, anywhere.

What's in your aquarium? If you've got live rock and/or a deep sand bed then the bioballs and ceramics aren't necessary. I'd remove them from your sump gradually over the course of a few weeks.

 

I called a LFS and was told that a MAG-12 would be adequate for my tank size. I connected it and got two problems:

* the spashing noise is extremely high

You mean when it gets into the sump? Well, when/if you remove the bioballs you can have just a watery area there and plumb the drain line under the water line. Then there won't be splashing. Otherwise, you could place some filter floss where the water is hitting the bio-balls to reduce the noise significantly. Make sure to replace this filter floss on a regular basis (every couple weeks).

 

* a lot of microbubbles across the tank.

So typically a sump has a "return" area where you place the pump. You have bubbles in your return area that are getting sucked into the MAG 12 and chopped up into smaller bubbles it sounds like. You can reduce this, depending on what your sump is like by:

* Installing baffles to force water through an up/down path giving the bubbles time to dissapate.

* Installing a plastic "box" around your mag12 that only lets water to the pump from behind. I'll use a ">" to denote the pump intake.

______________

|

| >pump

|______________

 

* Avoid putting filter floss around the intake of the pump or anything like that. You'll end up with a clog.

 

With a MAG12 on a 120 I would also recommend a SCWD to help the current oscillate a bit.

[elm66]

Impressive,

 

got away from my computer for an hour and already several feedbacks.

 

Sean:

the pump is submerged in the sump

 

Funnyguy911:

I don not have one ... and do not know what is a ball valve. Could you point me to a website which sell them? Thanks

 

Emissary:

Well the tank has a pretty decent sand bed and a lot of live rock. It also contains a very few corals and 10 fishes: 3 blue tang, a sohal, 2 maroon clown fishes, 3 chromis and Mandarin.. and forgot 3 cleaner shrimps, turbo snails and hermit crabs.

The splashing noise is occuring in the tank itself. There is also some ver y moderate splashing in the sump and will do as you mention by getting an underwater exhaust line.

 

In the return section of the sump, where the pump is located, there seem to be no bubbles. The pump outlet get into a 3/4" tube and the flow is split in 2 outlets for each of the 2 overflows that I have. The split is done by a T junction (flow arriving at teh base of the T).

 

The bubbles seem to be generated in the return lines from the pump.

You also mentioned a SCWD. What is it?

 

Thanks all of you for the quick feedback.

 

Eric

 

 

 

 

What's in your aquarium? If you've got live rock and/or a deep sand bed then the bioballs and ceramics aren't necessary. I'd remove them from your sump gradually over the course of a few weeks.

You mean when it gets into the sump? Well, when/if you remove the bioballs you can have just a watery area there and plumb the drain line under the water line. Then there won't be splashing. Otherwise, you could place some filter floss where the water is hitting the bio-balls to reduce the noise significantly. Make sure to replace this filter floss on a regular basis (every couple weeks).

So typically a sump has a "return" area where you place the pump. You have bubbles in your return area that are getting sucked into the MAG 12 and chopped up into smaller bubbles it sounds like. You can reduce this, depending on what your sump is like by:

* Installing baffles to force water through an up/down path giving the bubbles time to dissapate.

* Installing a plastic "box" around your mag12 that only lets water to the pump from behind. I'll use a ">" to denote the pump intake.

______________

|

| >pump

|______________

 

* Avoid putting filter floss around the intake of the pump or anything like that. You'll end up with a clog.

 

With a MAG12 on a 120 I would also recommend a SCWD to help the current oscillate a bit.

Edited November 13, 2006 by elm66

[funnyguy911]

scwd (squid) is a wave maker you hook up to the return pipes and it Tee's off and alternates the path of water sending the water to the right for a few seconds and than to the left for another few seconds depending on the flow of the pump. blueribbonkoi.com near manassas has plenty of plumbing parts and ball valve and unions, ball valve is what I have on my return line and just about everyone else does too. You can adjust the flow from your mag and turn it down if it is too much oh yeah home depot sells them too in the plumbing section. Hope that helps....

[Rascal]

Impressive,

 

got away from my computer for an hour and already several feedbacks.

Yes, we are obsessed.

 

The splashing noise is occuring in the tank itself.

 

Do you mean in the overflows? If so, you are in need of a standpipe. See here for starters: http://home.nc.rr.com/stockmanreef/interest.htm.

 

The bubbles seem to be generated in the return lines from the pump.

 

If this is true, you most likely have a small leak somewhere in the return plumbing. In this case the leak is drawing in air, rather than letting out water. Check all of your connections. If you are using tubing and hose-barb connectors, I have found that it helps to smear a little silicone on the hose-barb before sliding it into the tubing. Make sure you use either silicone or teflon tape on any threaded connections.

Edited November 13, 2006 by Rascal

[elm66]

scwd (squid) is a wave maker you hook up to the return pipes and it Tee's off and alternates the path of water sending the water to the right for a few seconds and than to the left for another few seconds depending on the flow of the pump. blueribbonkoi.com near manassas has plenty of plumbing parts and ball valve and unions, ball valve is what I have on my return line and just about everyone else does too. You can adjust the flow from your mag and turn it down if it is too much oh yeah home depot sells them too in the plumbing section. Hope that helps....

 

FunnyGuy,

 

Thanks for the explanation. I went to Marine depot and saw the "Squid". Interesting device. I check at Home depot and Lowes Website and only found metallic ball valves. I assume that I need to buy a plastic version, do I? One question about the regulatin using the ball valve is : does regulating the amount of flow using the ball valve damage the pump as it is not able to get the optimal output flow?

 

Rascal,

In fact there is 2 splashing noises: the first one is a gurgling which is originating from inside the overflow, as if some air was injected along with the water. It is annoying because note happening at regular interval but not that noisy (at least compared to the second noise. The large portion of the noise is when the return water is hitting the surface of the tank water. It already come preloaded with bubbles and the shear speed of the water exhausting is generating the noise. Regarding a leak and therefore introduction of air, I found one, which I will patch with Silicon. Is any silicon ok or do I have to take a special type?

 

Thanks both of you,

 

Eric

[ErikS]

One question about the regulatin using the ball valve is : does regulating the amount of flow using the ball valve damage the pump as it is not able to get the optimal output flow?

Shouldn't damage the pump............though another option is to add a T to the return line and return some of the flow directly back to the sump. Use the valve to regulate the amount going to the sump & to the tank = no stress on the pump.

 

Using the valve just makes the pump think it's pumping the water higher (head pressure) & shouldn't really hurt it.

 

You can find the plastic ball valves in the PVC section - Lowes generally has a bit better selection.

[BeltwayBandit]

Adding on to what Eric said:

 

No it doesn't hurt the pump because it is a centrifugal pump. Like Eric said it just puts more head pressure on the pump. You could even go so far as to close the valve all the way without damaging the pump. The only downside to that is you can overheat a centrifugal pump running it like that. You can't do that with a positive displacement pump, fortunately to my knowlege there are no positive displacement pumps offered in the aquarium, pond or pool hobbies.

 

 

Now on to your questions: put the return below the water level in the tank. Add a siphon break (a small hole drilled just below the waterline) on your return. Do a google search for Durso Standpipe overflow box.

 

Several people here have built Dursos (myself included) and we can help you work through the construction. It really is very simple.

 

BB

[Rascal]

Erik's advice is solid (of course) re: using a balve valve and/or diverting some back to your sump. IMO, however, I wouldn't do either of these. To answer your original question, I don't think your pump is too powerful for a 120. As long as you have the drain capacity (and you do, if it hasn't overflowed yet) there is no reason to reduce the flow. In fact, if you do end up going with a SCWD, you may end up wanting to increase the size of your pump, or at least get one better able to handle the pressure . . . but that's another story.

 

You will get an immediate, very gratifying reduction in noise and bubbles if you follow BeltwayBandit's suggestions. (1) submerge your returns below the water level (with a small -- 1/8 in -- siphon break drilled JUST below the water level in each one) and (2) put in a standpipe -- either Durso or Stockman, depending on what will fit in your overflows. There are lots of designs out there, just keep in mind the "what if" factor when deciding which one to use. As in, "what if this hole gets clogged with algae, snail, etc. . . ." Once set up they do require some tweaking before you get it the way you want it, but the final result will be well worth it.

 

Good luck.

[elm66]

Erik's advice is solid (of course) re: using a balve valve and/or diverting some back to your sump. IMO, however, I wouldn't do either of these. To answer your original question, I don't think your pump is too powerful for a 120. As long as you have the drain capacity (and you do, if it hasn't overflowed yet) there is no reason to reduce the flow. In fact, if you do end up going with a SCWD, you may end up wanting to increase the size of your pump, or at least get one better able to handle the pressure . . . but that's another story.

 

You will get an immediate, very gratifying reduction in noise and bubbles if you follow BeltwayBandit's suggestions. (1) submerge your returns below the water level (with a small -- 1/8 in -- siphon break drilled JUST below the water level in each one) and (2) put in a standpipe -- either Durso or Stockman, depending on what will fit in your overflows. There are lots of designs out there, just keep in mind the "what if" factor when deciding which one to use. As in, "what if this hole gets clogged with algae, snail, etc. . . ." Once set up they do require some tweaking before you get it the way you want it, but the final result will be well worth it.

 

Good luck.

 

Erik, Rascal & Beltwaybandit,

 

Thanks for your advices. I have looked at various designs related to a Durso standpipe. It does not seem very difficult to build. I will try to find the required PVC materials at home depot (f they have it). Last time I went there I was also looking for a bulkhead connection for my tank without much success. Where do you usually buy your plumbing plastic gears in the region? or do you buy it online. Of course cheaper is better.

 

Related to the squid, it is mentioned that it handles a 1400GPH max, which is very close to the maximum the MAG Delivers. I have not seen any tables of GPH for this pump according to the size of the column of water but I assume that 4feet will reduce the flow to about 500GPH (have not tested). With that flow, he squid switching duration is about 5s. Isn't it too short? If I purchase the squid, as I have 3/4" pipes, the only thing I would need are clamps, am I right?

 

Return question. You mentioned drilling a hole under the water line to avoid syphoning but would a hole be clogged by Algaes? I understand that this is an exhaust but nevertheless calcium buildup and algaes can be a problem. I currently have a loc-line system (old one encrusted) coming out and was thinking of replacing it with a T junction splitter and some of the flat diffusers that exist in the loc-line series of accessories. Is it a bad idea?

 

Hoops forgot to ask if somebody knows the size of the drilled holes for the drain and return on an all-glass 120 gallons tank with 2 megaflows (overflows are not in the corner). I forgot to measure, when I installed the old piping system and do not want to dismantle the overflow to check as it is a running aquarium. I also checked the all-glass website without much success.

 

Thanks

 

Eric

Edited November 14, 2006 by elm66

[jason the filter freak]

some one once mentioned something along the lines there is no such thing as too much flow, try to redirect the flow, also as stated before a valve would come in handy

[Rascal]

I think they are 1 inch drains and 3/4 inch returns, but I am not 100 % sure on that. What is connected to the bulkheads at the bottom of the overflows? Is it clear tubing or PVC? In either case the size may be marked on there (measured by it's interior diameter, or ID). If not marked an easy way to size it is to just take a piece of whatever size tubing/pvc you think it is and hold it up to what is there to compare.

 

You can figure out the flow of your pump against head loss by using this calculator: http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php

 

Re: the anti-siphon hole. Yes, if not cleaned regularly it will get clogged and cease to work. Solution is simple: every time you do (pick a task), stick a tooth pick in the hole. If your return is Tee'd to 2 outlets, I would put a hole in each one. Also, you just want to submerge the return lines enough to get rid of that splashing sound and avoid any vortexes, there is no need to stick them half way down your tank.

 

HD and/or Lowes will have all you need for a standpipe, but not every store carries the same stuff so you may have to shop around. I think the guy or guys who invented them are now selling them already made, so you might consider this as well. As far as bulkheads and other reef-related plumbing stuff, your best bet is either online or a good LFS like BRK.

[elm66]

Rascal & Jason,

 

Thanks for the info. The bulkheads are standard PVC but I can not read any inscriptions on them. Well I was also assuming 3/4 and 1" and will have to flush the overflow to make sure.

 

I will visit lowes and Home Depot this week-end to buy the parts I need to build the stand pipe... The bulkheads and ball valves have been ordered.

 

Thanks again

 

Eric

Edited November 16, 2006 by elm66