Question

[Origami]

Because you seem to be tying fish symptoms to water changes, I'm concerned with your storage container (hyper tough you called it). I'm unfamiliar with that particular trash can, but if it's leaching plasticizers into your change water, you might see something similar to what you're experiencing.

In the past, many of us limited our mixing and storage containers to the gray-colored Rubbermaid Brutes. Some other trash cans were known to be problems and were to be avoided.

Today, I mix and store in 75-gallon food-grade HDPE containers, so I've not kept up on the trashcan scene.

Perhaps somebody else can comment on this hyper tough can.

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[cpeguero]

Another question is which salt mix are you using? As already stated, since the fish seem to be reacting badly to water changes, it seems to be something associated with those. Things it could be include:

Water container leaching something into the water

Source water (RODI). Do you have a carbon block stage to remove chlorine/chloramine from your city water (or are you on a well?)

Salt mix - there have been anecdotal (at least) cases of bad batches of salt mixes from some suppliers.

Equipment in your saltwater mixing setup

Something environmental. You mentioned you have this in your boiler room. If your boiler exhaust somehow was not working properly, perhaps some contaminant is getting into the water, and there could be other serious risks to your own health from this.

The previously mentioned salinity of new water.

Also, it’s most helpful to list actual numbers for any parameters. Stating “my salinity is fine” is not good, because there’s plenty of incomplete information out there. So what one person may have labeled as “fine” may actually be bad when combined with other factors. There’s tons to learn about this hobby and it can be complex. We’ve got an awesome community here that can help get you through this.


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[Mbheat77]

On 2/22/2023 at 2:20 PM, JMsAquarium said:

And also get a bottle of calibration liquid. It's only a few $$. I calibrate mine once a month and miner adjustments are almost always needed. A refractometer and calibration fluid is one of the cheapest and safest investments that you will ever make in this hobby. Always test your tank water AND your new saltwater mix to ensure that they are at the same salinity levels before you do a water change.

 

This is the refractometer that I have

 https://www.amazon.com/Refractometer-Fishkeeping-Automatic-Temperature-Compensation/dp/B018LRO1SU/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=1ZE3OQY9D4QJ5&keywords=refractometer+for+saltwater+aquarium&qid=1677093486&sprefix=refractometer+for+saltwater+aquarium%2Caps%2C502&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyVDdMMEhUQTZLU05UJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzcyMjg4MlQ1NVVROFdTV0VaSCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMjc3NzY3QjY5TkMzREJQRFFIJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==#:~:text=Submit-,Salinity Refractometer for Seawater and Marine Fishkeeping Aquarium 0-100 PPT with Automatic Temperature Compensation,-Visit the Agriculture

 

And the calibration fluid 

https://www.amazon.com/AccuBrate-Refractometer-Salinity-Calibration-Fluid/dp/B07HQSY9QG/ref=sr_1_5?crid=1ZE3OQY9D4QJ5&keywords=refractometer+for+saltwater+aquarium&qid=1677093617&sprefix=refractometer+for+saltwater+aquarium%2Caps%2C502&sr=8-5#:~:text=VIDEO-,AccuBrate Refractometer Salinity Calibration Fluid – 60 ml Solution to Accurately Calibrate Refractometer for Testing Natural Saltwater or Synthetic Sea Water - Made in the USA (60 ml),-Visit the Aquatic

Thanks I will check it out

[Mbheat77]

On 2/22/2023 at 5:11 PM, Origami said:

Because you seem to be tying fish symptoms to water changes, I'm concerned with your storage container (hyper tough you called it). I'm unfamiliar with that particular trash can, but if it's leaching plasticizers into your change water, you might see something similar to what you're experiencing.

In the past, many of us limited our mixing and storage containers to the gray-colored Rubbermaid Brutes. Some other trash cans were known to be problems and were to be avoided.

Today, I mix and store in 75-gallon food-grade HDPE containers, so I've not kept up on the trashcan scene.

Perhaps somebody else can comment on this hyper tough can.

Sent from my Note 10+5g using Tapatalk
 

 

On 2/22/2023 at 5:40 PM, cpeguero said:

Another question is which salt mix are you using? As already stated, since the fish seem to be reacting badly to water changes, it seems to be something associated with those. Things it could be include:

Water container leaching something into the water

Source water (RODI). Do you have a carbon block stage to remove chlorine/chloramine from your city water (or are you on a well?)

Salt mix - there have been anecdotal (at least) cases of bad batches of salt mixes from some suppliers.

Equipment in your saltwater mixing setup

Something environmental. You mentioned you have this in your boiler room. If your boiler exhaust somehow was not working properly, perhaps some contaminant is getting into the water, and there could be other serious risks to your own health from this.

The previously mentioned salinity of new water.

Also, it’s most helpful to list actual numbers for any parameters. Stating “my salinity is fine” is not good, because there’s plenty of incomplete information out there. So what one person may have labeled as “fine” may actually be bad when combined with other factors. There’s tons to learn about this hobby and it can be complex. We’ve got an awesome community here that can help get you through this.


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Thanks for the info. But I don't think that it's any of the equipment or salt I have. Because I am maintaining my mom's 30gal with the same equipment and she is having no problems. I have had my tank for about 2yrs now and I have had hers running for about a year would be. But her not understanding the importance of saltwater tanks she accidentally topped it of with some greasy throw away water 🤦🏾‍♂️ but I restarted it and it's been running good now for about 6monts no issues. I have been turning her sand also and her fish are loving life. She has 2 clowns a royal gramma and a cardinal. So I think my equipment is good. The salt I'm using is reef crystals the orange box, and my rodi has a carbon chamber. It has the 3 big cups and the tube across the top.  I will get u my salinity number in a bit than once I get the refractometer I will test again and send those results. Thanks again

[Origami]

Let's see what the results are. You should also send in a sample of your mom's tank water to note any differences that might be playing into this.

 

It's odd to have two tanks, both being run the same way using the same water and stuff and to have one losing its residents, most notably, right after a water change.

 

Reef Crystals is a good product. Most all RO/DI have carbon chambers. It's there to reduce membrane-damaging clorine. If you're using the same water for your mom's tank and yours, then I can't see how your RO/DI would have anything to do with it. Or your salt mix. Salinity shouldn't be an issue either as long as the same topoff approach is being used in both - that is, topping off with fresh (not salt) water.

 

If your equipment isn't the problem and your water's the same, then it's a bit of a mystery.

 

ICP-OES analysis will not tell you, however, if you have organic toxins, pollutants, etc. in your water because the process will break molecules up into their component elements and ions. 

 

 

[p3rmafrost]

On 2/25/2023 at 8:25 AM, Mbheat77 said:

But her not understanding the importance of saltwater tanks she accidentally topped it of with some greasy throw away water 🤦🏾‍♂️

@Origami brings up a great point. If the equipment is good, and the salt mix is good, and the other tank is good, then your situation is pretty odd. Reading back through your posts I saw the quote about the "greasy throw away water". What are the chances that something foreign was introduced to your tank? You could be doing everything correctly and still have loss of livestock if someone dumped something into the water. Have you had discussions with your family members and friends and asked them if they added anything to the tank? That's a challenging conversation, but getting an accurate, truthful answer with help you rule out potential causes.

[Mbheat77]

On 2/27/2023 at 10:45 AM, p3rmafrost said:

@Origami brings up a great point. If the equipment is good, and the salt mix is good, and the other tank is good, then your situation is pretty odd. Reading back through your posts I saw the quote about the "greasy throw away water". What are the chances that something foreign was introduced to your tank? You could be doing everything correctly and still have loss of livestock if someone dumped something into the water. Have you had discussions with your family members and friends and asked them if they added anything to the tank? That's a challenging conversation, but getting an accurate, truthful answer with help you rule out potential causes.

No thos was at a totaly diff house. My mom did that with her tank. My tank is at my house and I'm the only one that does anything with it. Wife and kids just look at it and pick fish out when I add them. So no I know it wasn't anything added to the water. Thanks for the input. I think just over the last 2 yrs me not cleaning bed has caused an issue. Not to mention the guy I bought it from had gave up on it and only had a prickly starfish and a cucumber in the tank with mushrooms and some duncans in it. So I think it was just user error and not maintaining like I should have been. 

[Origami]

I'm in trouble. I haven't made a deliberate attempt to clean my sandbed in the 12 years that this tank has been set up.

I just adopted a rather large engineer goby from a friend who is moving. He's been busy turning over the sanded at one end of the tank. No issues from his efforts, either. Though I now have nice white mounds of sand that he's cleared from the tunnels he's excavated.

There are certainly issues with some deep sandbeds accumulating detritus or, worse, pockets of hydrogen sulfide. But I wouldn't be too quick to come to that conclusion.

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[Mbheat77]

On 3/2/2023 at 5:11 PM, Origami said:

I'm in trouble. I haven't made a deliberate attempt to clean my sandbed in the 12 years that this tank has been set up.

I just adopted a rather large engineer goby from a friend who is moving. He's been busy turning over the sanded at one end of the tank. No issues from his efforts, either. Though I now have nice white mounds of sand that he's cleared from the tunnels he's excavated.

There are certainly issues with some deep sandbeds accumulating detritus or, worse, pockets of hydrogen sulfide. But I wouldn't be too quick to come to that conclusion.

Sent from my Note 10+5g using Tapatalk
 

Smh. I don't know then. I will just start over and see how things go from there. I'm going to see if I can sift the sand and take some out then go from there. If that doesn't look any better I will get new sand. 

[howaboutme]

7 hours ago, Mbheat77 said:

Smh. I don't know then. I will just start over and see how things go from there. I'm going to see if I can sift the sand and take some out then go from there. If that doesn't look any better I will get new sand. 

 

Maybe save a cup to jump start cycle but get new sand. Take away as much of the variables as possible. This is the risk of getting turnkey tanks as opposed to starting fresh.

[Mbheat77]

2 hours ago, howaboutme said:

 

Maybe save a cup to jump start cycle but get new sand. Take away as much of the variables as possible. This is the risk of getting turnkey tanks as opposed to starting fresh.

Yeah I should have just bought tank and started from scratch. But then again I don't know cause at 1 point my tank was doing great. So I think it's user error. 

[Mbheat77]

https://lab.atiaquaristik.com/publicAnalysis/219671

 

https://lab.atiaquaristik.com/timeline/73113

 

 

Here are my water results. I hope this will help get me back to the good days. 

[Mbheat77]

On 3/2/2023 at 5:11 PM, Origami said:

I'm in trouble. I haven't made a deliberate attempt to clean my sandbed in the 12 years that this tank has been set up.

I just adopted a rather large engineer goby from a friend who is moving. He's been busy turning over the sanded at one end of the tank. No issues from his efforts, either. Though I now have nice white mounds of sand that he's cleared from the tunnels he's excavated.

There are certainly issues with some deep sandbeds accumulating detritus or, worse, pockets of hydrogen sulfide. But I wouldn't be too quick to come to that conclusion.

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Or

 

Just now, Mbheat77 said:

https://lab.atiaquaristik.com/publicAnalysis/219671

 

https://lab.atiaquaristik.com/timeline/73113

 

 

Here are my water results. I hope this will help get me back to the good days. 

@Origami, @p3rmafrost, @cpeguero

[cpeguero]

From a quick glance, salinity is low, kH is quite high, phosphate lots a bit high.

Is the first link RO water?

Others likely have more questions, but to start with:

How are you topping off evaporated water on the main tank?

Have you gotten a refractometer to measure salinity? Should check your mixed water for water changes as well as your display tank and post those results


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[Origami]

Your salinity is a touch low (1.024 sg), but not horrible. Most of us like to keep it a little higher (35 ppt or 1.0264 sg). 

 

You've got some metals in your water, too: Tin and Aluminum are notable. Manganese, too. They're also present in your fresh water sample. Silicon is also very high and appears to be coming from your fresh water.  Where are you getting your fresh water that you're using to mix your saltwater? It seems to be the source of a lot (but not all) of the out-of-whack numbers in your tank water. 

 

How do you process and store your fresh water before using it? And, how do you move it from your fresh water vessel to your saltwater mixing vessel?

 

If you're using an RO/DI setup, it seems that your cation resin is depleted as it's letting all these metal ions thru. 

 

 

[Mbheat77]

20 hours ago, Origami said:

Your salinity is a touch low (1.024 sg), but not horrible. Most of us like to keep it a little higher (35 ppt or 1.0264 sg). 

 

You've got some metals in your water, too: Tin and Aluminum are notable. Manganese, too. They're also present in your fresh water sample. Silicon is also very high and appears to be coming from your fresh water.  Where are you getting your fresh water that you're using to mix your saltwater? It seems to be the source of a lot (but not all) of the out-of-whack numbers in your tank water. 

 

How do you process and store your fresh water before using it? And, how do you move it from your fresh water vessel to your saltwater mixing vessel?

 

If you're using an RO/DI setup, it seems that your cation resin is depleted as it's letting all these metal ions thru. 

 

 

I am using my rodi machine to fill 5gal buckets then putting it in my 30gal trashcan. I mix the salt in the 30gal and let it mix for at least 24hrs. When I am doing my water change I use a pump to fill my DT. That's pretty much how I do it. Now I do have well water and had not changed my whole house filter. I recently have changed that and bought all new filters for my rodi. I just got a new salinity reader and my refractometer is on its way. So once I get all my stuff in I will change the water and send another test off. Hopefully I'm in the clear then. I got a new skimmer and a gfo reactor also. So i hope my new toys make life easier. I will also get new food grade buckets to fill with my rodi water. 

[Mbheat77]

On 3/4/2023 at 2:38 PM, cpeguero said:

From a quick glance, salinity is low, kH is quite high, phosphate lots a bit high.

Is the first link RO water?

Others likely have more questions, but to start with:

How are you topping off evaporated water on the main tank?

Have you gotten a refractometer to measure salinity? Should check your mixed water for water changes as well as your display tank and post those results


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I have an automatic topoff machine that I keep a 5gal of fresh rodi water in. 

[Origami]

12 hours ago, Mbheat77 said:

I am using my rodi machine to fill 5gal buckets then putting it in my 30gal trashcan. I mix the salt in the 30gal and let it mix for at least 24hrs. When I am doing my water change I use a pump to fill my DT. That's pretty much how I do it. Now I do have well water and had not changed my whole house filter. I recently have changed that and bought all new filters for my rodi. I just got a new salinity reader and my refractometer is on its way. So once I get all my stuff in I will change the water and send another test off. Hopefully I'm in the clear then. I got a new skimmer and a gfo reactor also. So i hope my new toys make life easier. I will also get new food grade buckets to fill with my rodi water. 

So, when you submitted your freshwater sample for the ATI test, did you take the water from the 30 gallon trash can or directly from the RO/DI? Do you have a TDS (total dissolved solids) meter? (One normally comes with the RO/DI if bought new.) If so, have you tested the TDS output of the water coming directly from the RO/DI unit? To do this:

• Start RO/DI water production and let it run for several (>4) minutes.
• Take a sample into a really clean, dry cup (glass, for example)
• Measure TDS

You're on a well. So am I. (My whole house water filtering consists of particulate filtering - mostly clay solids - and a water softener.) High CO2 is pretty common in well water and will deplete your anion resin (the part of the DI stage that removes negatively charged ions like dissolved CO2 (which becomes HCO3- and CO3--)) very quickly. Sometimes in as little as 100 gallons of water production overall can deplete all of your anion resin - just from the amount of (otherwise harmless) dissolved CO2 in the water. But dissolved metal ions are positively charged and removed by your cation resin. So those leaking through would indicate that your anion resin is exhausted. This would be the case if the water coming directly out of your RO/DI were contaminated with metals. I would not be surprised if this were the case in Cheasapeake Beach - the high levels of silicon and aluminum probably matches the sand/sediments of your region, so finding it dissolved in your water might be logical. The other possible source of the metals would be the 30 gallon trashcan that you're using for mixing. (While I don't have all the metals that you do, I have low levels of nickel in my ground water - also discovered on an ATI test - that I deal with using a separate cation resin stage on my RO/DI.)

 

I have no idea where the heavy metals are coming into your freshwater but apparently it's there. It's either coming up from the groundwater (lithium, for example, is common here in the States) or it's coming from something in your water handling/processing chain. I also don't know if that's a source of the problem you're seeing - I kind of doubt it. But, it may be something that you want to look into simply because it could be in your drinking water at home.

[Mbheat77]

4 hours ago, Origami said:

So, when you submitted your freshwater sample for the ATI test, did you take the water from the 30 gallon trash can or directly from the RO/DI? Do you have a TDS (total dissolved solids) meter? (One normally comes with the RO/DI if bought new.) If so, have you tested the TDS output of the water coming directly from the RO/DI unit? To do this:

• Start RO/DI water production and let it run for several (>4) minutes.
• Take a sample into a really clean, dry cup (glass, for example)
• Measure TDS

You're on a well. So am I. (My whole house water filtering consists of particulate filtering - mostly clay solids - and a water softener.) High CO2 is pretty common in well water and will deplete your anion resin (the part of the DI stage that removes negatively charged ions like dissolved CO2 (which becomes HCO3- and CO3--)) very quickly. Sometimes in as little as 100 gallons of water production overall can deplete all of your anion resin - just from the amount of (otherwise harmless) dissolved CO2 in the water. But dissolved metal ions are positively charged and removed by your cation resin. So those leaking through would indicate that your anion resin is exhausted. This would be the case if the water coming directly out of your RO/DI were contaminated with metals. I would not be surprised if this were the case in Cheasapeake Beach - the high levels of silicon and aluminum probably matches the sand/sediments of your region, so finding it dissolved in your water might be logical. The other possible source of the metals would be the 30 gallon trashcan that you're using for mixing. (While I don't have all the metals that you do, I have low levels of nickel in my ground water - also discovered on an ATI test - that I deal with using a separate cation resin stage on my RO/DI.)

 

I have no idea where the heavy metals are coming into your freshwater but apparently it's there. It's either coming up from the groundwater (lithium, for example, is common here in the States) or it's coming from something in your water handling/processing chain. I also don't know if that's a source of the problem you're seeing - I kind of doubt it. But, it may be something that you want to look into simply because it could be in your drinking water at home.

🤯 alot of that just went over my pay grade. Lol but I just got my salinity tester and it does read tds. When I sent the test of it, it was out of the bucket I use only for the fresh rodi water that I use. I will test a fresh sample and send pics of the tester. Now the facet Im Using is a sink that's in my laundry room. It is after the whole house filter so it's the same as any water anywhere else in the house. It is a sink that just fills up with water from my washing machine but the water never gets any where near the faucet. I will also send a pic of that. It will be tomorrow when I'm able to test it and send the pics. Now as for the water that I made in the 30gal trash can I didn't get that tested. When my new filters for my rodi comes in I will send off a new test with the rodi and freshly made saltwater. 

[Origami]

Put up a picture of your RO/DI setup, too.

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[Mbheat77]

On 3/6/2023 at 6:20 PM, Origami said:

Put up a picture of your RO/DI setup, too.

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[Mbheat77]

On 3/6/2023 at 6:20 PM, Origami said:

Put up a picture of your RO/DI setup, too.

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[epleeds]

Do you need a refractometer?  I have a bunch.  Your more then welcome to have one for free. 

[JMsAquarium]

1 hour ago, Mbheat77 said:

 

are you testing the TDS in your aquarium? Usually you should test TDS of the RODI water

 

[Mbheat77]

2 hours ago, epleeds said:

Do you need a refractometer?  I have a bunch.  Your more then welcome to have one for free. 

Thanks alot I just got mine in. I wish I would have have know earlier. But it was only $16 so it wasn't that bad.