Plumbing Advice, Please

[howaboutme]

Planning my next build but first w/ plumbing to a sump from scratch. I have a lot of time to think about this (tank is floating somewhere on the vast ocean) so I'd like to ask the WAMAS experts for advice, suggestions, etc on my initial setup.

 

Please see image:

 

Some initial questions.....

 

- Am i on the right track? Anything obviously wrong?

- Gate valve on the return? I see opinions both ways.

- Advice on return pump size? Is 10x turn over still the norm? I'm planning SPS. (I will have 2 MP10s on either side)

- Slip vs thread?

- Any need for 45 deg elbows vs 90s on the drain?

- 1 return good enough? I like simplicity so if I can get away w/ just 1 return, that is preferred.

 

Thanks all!

[howaboutme]

Did some more reading/research and updated a couple of things in the image below.

 

- Now leaning towards the fijicube 600gph overflow instead as some people have complained that the eshopps design of the outerbox being lower makes it harder to tune for quietness. Also saving 2" is a pretty big deal and doubt I'll need additional flow.

- Moved gate valve on the main drain lower and closer to the sump to help with the syphon.

 

 

Thoughts? Same questions from before too. Thanks!

[mattm]

Have you looked at Modular Marine? They are super backed up but they seem to make a good product. I personally like that the entire external box is blacked out.

Since you are doing this from scratch, you may want to consider a box with three holes to run a Bean Animal. It is the most quiet and fail safe.

10x return rate seems high to me but I’m just getting back in the hobby so things may have changed. I usually go for 3-5x.

[howaboutme]

10 hours ago, mattm said:

Have you looked at Modular Marine? They are super backed up but they seem to make a good product. I personally like that the entire external box is blacked out.

Since you are doing this from scratch, you may want to consider a box with three holes to run a Bean Animal. It is the most quiet and fail safe.

10x return rate seems high to me but I’m just getting back in the hobby so things may have changed. I usually go for 3-5x.

 

Hey! Thanks for your comments.

 

I have looked at MM and know that they get great reviews. The main reasons I leaned away from them (not too worried about lead time because time is all I have) is 1) to save some space. Their smallest is an 8" weir width and 2) although I know that the bean animal solution is the best, I chose space as a priority in this situation. Doing a 3 pipe system just adds a bit more complexity and most importantly space in an already small tank/stand. (I'm also intimidated to be honest.) Lastly 3) I don't mind saving a few bucks here and there.

 

That said, none of those reasons (more excuses) can't be overcome so that's why I'm asking.

[mattm]

Makes sense, my new build will be a herbie for the same reason - space. If you go with the FijiCube, I’ll be interested in your opinion/review.

The rest of your plan looks good to me. I tend to trend toward to as few fail points as possible. Mostly slip joints rather than thread with a union where needed.

[howaboutme]

10 hours ago, mattm said:

Makes sense, my new build will be a herbie for the same reason - space. If you go with the FijiCube, I’ll be interested in your opinion/review.

The rest of your plan looks good to me. I tend to trend toward to as few fail points as possible. Mostly slip joints rather than thread with a union where needed.

 

Yeah thanks. I have to also be honest. The MM overflow requires me to drill 1 more hole. Being a novice at drilling, doing 1 less hole (=stress) helps my blood pressure as well. 

[howaboutme]

Good news, no leaks! Off to a good start. Now I'm in need of help to fine tune the Herbie so it is silent (or near silent). Below are some video I took while trying to trouble shoot the issue(s). As you can tell, it is noisy. I believe most, if not all, of the noise is coming from the drain entering the sump. However, I cannot rule out air in the pipes. The sump area is so loud it will is muzzling any possible other noises.

 

A few things of note:

 

- E drain is about 5.5" above main. It was longer but I shortened it as it was getting too close to the top. It has no effect that I see on noise.

- I put the pipes (both M and E) about 1" below anticipated water line.

- I'm using a Simplicity 1000 DC pump (Jebao rebranded, I believe) around 40%. I tried various, doesn't seem to help.

- I hear air purging when pump starts.

- I've tuned the gate valve to get the water to trickle over E drain.

- I put a pad in the basket to see if that helps. It doesn't.

- 1" drains (3/4" returns), all schedule 80.

 

My own diagnosis:

 

- I'm thinking that the pipes are too submerged in the sump and it's not allowing the air to fully purge out when the syphon starts.

 

Additional questions:

 

- How much water volume is needed in my case? I've played with some water here and some there but not sure that helps. Does water need to flow over from skimmer to return w/o a fall? I don't hear a noise there but wondering what is it supposed to be?

 

Videos:

 

 

 

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[AlanM]

For a full siphon pipe you want the pipe to terminate just barely under the sump water level for the reason you guessed. 

 

It will never purge if the air needs to push out more water on the bottom end than there is water on the top side pushing on it.  Try to get it around 1/2" under the water surface.  Normally the drain chamber has a fixed water level anyway, so it shouldn't be too hard.

[AlanM]

BTW, the emergency pipe can go down under if you want, but it should also probably terminate near the surface.

 

It won't have a big impact on noise while running, but if the main gets clogged that one needs to be able to convert into a full siphon so you don't want anything preventing that from happening.

 

Feel free to have the water level below the emergency with that pipe up pretty high so it's totally dry most of the time and ready for action if bad things happen.  It doesn't have to trickle all the time like the "open channel" in a BeanAnimal design.

[howaboutme]

Thanks Alan. Appreciate it. I'll shorten the drain pipes a 1/4" at a time.

 

Good to know that I don't need a trickle in the e pipe. I was wondering about that because I would think that'll create noise.

 

Will report back.

[howaboutme]

I cut about 1" or so off of the pipe. I think it's definitely helped (at least I want to think so). It's still noisy though. It's hard to measure but looks to be between 1/4" to 1/2" below the water level. Here is where I am at now:

 

 

The video above was taken as part of a test to see if water volume in the sump was the issue. I filled it up higher to see if it was the trickling water going into the mechanical filtration chamber. I think it's safe to say it isn't. I believe it is still the drain.

 

Question is, do I cut more? It's so close so wanted to check in to get some thoughts before I cut more. I do have plenty of pipe in case I cut too much. What else should I look out for? I've been playing w/ the pump speed, gate valve as well as starting from scratch (meaning open gate valve fully then dialing it back), nothing.

 

Thanks!

[AlanM]

I think you're still getting air out of the full siphon.  Do you see air going into it at the top?  Eventually it should get no air coming out the bottom if no air is coming in the top. It's the air that's noisy.

 

So my advice for tuning the thing would be to completely close the gate valve.  That will ensure that the emergency can handle an emergency as well. Then slowly start opening the gate valve. 

 

As you open the valve it will eventually start kind of hissing out small air bubbles and will eventually "flush" all of the air out of the line.  Once it flushes, close it back a bit and that's your set point.  Keep an eye on the water level in the top box so it doesn't empty.  If you leave it flushing it will eventually drain the box and you'll be back where you started with a siphon line full of air.

 

A 1 inch drain can take a staggering amount of flow when in full siphon. 

[howaboutme]

11 minutes ago, AlanM said:

I think you're still getting air out of the full siphon.  Do you see air going into it at the top?  Eventually it should get no air coming out the bottom if no air is coming in the top. It's the air that's noisy.

 

So my advice for tuning the thing would be to completely close the gate valve.  That will ensure that the emergency can handle an emergency as well. Then slowly start opening the gate valve. 

 

As you open the valve it will eventually start kind of hissing out small air bubbles and will eventually "flush" all of the air out of the line.  Once it flushes, close it back a bit and that's your set point.  Keep an eye on the water level in the top box so it doesn't empty.  If you leave it flushing it will eventually drain the box and you'll be back where you started with a siphon line full of air.

 

A 1 inch drain can take a staggering amount of flow when in full siphon. 

 

Thanks Alan! Your method is different then what I've been doing. I've been starting from the open position and closing.

 

Another thing that's been bothering me is the pipe penetration we've been discussing. I've been searching on the web for other Fijicube sumps (mostly on R2R, some on social media) and I see a lot of those drain pipes very deep (likely 2" or more) so I'm trying to ask those people questions. That's gotten me to think that maybe it's the opposite and that I needed a longer pipe. 180 degrees from what everyone else, including you, says. I'll run some more tests tomorrow. I appreciate your help!

[AlanM]

Yeah, don't add more pipe below the water surface until trying a few other things. The siphon is caused by the height difference between the water level in the external overflow box and the water level in the sump.  Extra pipe below the sump water surface doesn't help.  It's just extra length of round wall to hold in air before it can get out of the pipe and into your sump as a bubble that pops. 

 

I didn't say anything before, but the horizontal segments you put in your drain under the gate valve may compromise getting the full siphon going somewhat.  You only have around 3 feet of vertical height (from the water level in the box to the water level in the sump) for the water to accelerate down the pipes.

 

If you think about what needs to happen.  You want the water moving as fast as possible due to gravity from the box down to the sump.  That speed is what will bring the air with it (which wants to bubble in the other direction toward the ceiling if it's moving too slowly).  The horizontal segment at the bottom is a "floor" that the water will have to hit and turn to continue pushing air along.  Water is incompressible, so it will be a limit on how fast the stream can get going.  If you google around horizontal runs and BeanAnimal you'll see lots of people with problems starting the siphon pipe with a horizontal run.  And your horizontal run is "after" the gate valve, which is where the water will be going the slowest.  The gate valve is a variable reducer that will be mostly closed once the water siphon is set up.  

 

It might be too late, but if it's possible I would replace the 90 degree elbows with 45's and a slanted section with the gate valve at the sump end of it (rather than before the sloped section) if you have trouble getting all of the air out.  The closer the gate goes to the sump the better.

[howaboutme]

5 hours ago, AlanM said:

Yeah, don't add more pipe below the water surface until trying a few other things. The siphon is caused by the height difference between the water level in the external overflow box and the water level in the sump.  Extra pipe below the sump water surface doesn't help.  It's just extra length of round wall to hold in air before it can get out of the pipe and into your sump as a bubble that pops. 

 

I didn't say anything before, but the horizontal segments you put in your drain under the gate valve may compromise getting the full siphon going somewhat.  You only have around 3 feet of vertical height (from the water level in the box to the water level in the sump) for the water to accelerate down the pipes.

 

If you think about what needs to happen.  You want the water moving as fast as possible due to gravity from the box down to the sump.  That speed is what will bring the air with it (which wants to bubble in the other direction toward the ceiling if it's moving too slowly).  The horizontal segment at the bottom is a "floor" that the water will have to hit and turn to continue pushing air along.  Water is incompressible, so it will be a limit on how fast the stream can get going.  If you google around horizontal runs and BeanAnimal you'll see lots of people with problems starting the siphon pipe with a horizontal run.  And your horizontal run is "after" the gate valve, which is where the water will be going the slowest.  The gate valve is a variable reducer that will be mostly closed once the water siphon is set up.  

 

It might be too late, but if it's possible I would replace the 90 degree elbows with 45's and a slanted section with the gate valve at the sump end of it (rather than before the sloped section) if you have trouble getting all of the air out.  The closer the gate goes to the sump the better.

 

Well...more trial and error today. First, thanks Alan for reminding me to actually test the E drain. I just assumed it would work but when I shut the valve the first time, I quickly learned it was too high and the overflow box was not tall enough (or wide enough) to accommodate the water volume prior to the E drain syphoning. I cut down the pipe about 1/2" and it works w/o affecting the noise level.

 

I am hoping that it is not the horizontals but yes I do understand that as a factor. I will change it as last resort but went this route because of the short runs.

 

I played w/ a few things today. 2 main issues I found researching is that 1) the sump volume in the fijicubs affect the noise going into the 1st mechanical filtration chamber (water fall effect) and 2) for some reason, the drain pipes should be submerged deep. Some people have it 4" below water line. I don't have that room but I did cut 2 longer pipes to test. Low and behold, it significantly quieted the overflow. I've been continuing to play w/ water volume and sump height. It still has noise so I'm not quite satisfied. Here are 2 videos.

 

This video shows the noise after the pumps been running for a while:

 

This video shows the complete pump startup. I hear the air flush and I believe the syphon started and completed but I don't have a trained ear to fully know. Thoughts?

 

 

At this point, believe and hope that the noise is the water coming out of the drain chamber into the 2nd chamber. If that is the case, I can  move on to solving that issue. But I'd love to hear opinions, based on the noise, if you think the  syphon is adequate?

 

Thanks!

 

Edit...Added a video of the noise w/ the door closed. Not too bad but not yet convinced myself:

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by howaboutme
added add'l video

[AlanM]

I think you're good in that last video.  I believe any remaining noise is due to turbulence going from the drain chamber to the next chamber.  I don't see any air bubbling, just some trickling noise.

 

Is the square opening in the second box for a sock?  I bet if you get a sock in there or something it will quiet down.  It will also quiet down a little once you get some slime coat built up after running.

[howaboutme]

28 minutes ago, AlanM said:

I think you're good in that last video.  I believe any remaining noise is due to turbulence going from the drain chamber to the next chamber.  I don't see any air bubbling, just some trickling noise.

 

Is the square opening in the second box for a sock?  I bet if you get a sock in there or something it will quiet down.  It will also quiet down a little once you get some slime coat built up after running.

 

Awesome to hear! That chamber is currently setup for a filter pad, which I put in to try and tamper the noise. It helps a bit. It also can be configured for a filter sock but I'm not planning to use one so don't want to even know if that helps. I'm looking at some acoustic absorption foam to put above the sump to help w/ the noise and that annoying high pitch sound of the pump. Maybe that'll help a bit.

[howaboutme]

Want to hear something funny? Went to drain everything to move onto my next task on this build and had a minor accident. I was so excited to use the HD buckethead  to dry my sump that I didn't realize I stuck the hose into the out rather than the in. For a split second, it blew water all over the inside of the stand. Luckily it wasn't salt....Doh! 

[AlanM]

Hah. I've only used a shop vac to finish emptying a tank I intend to sell.  I've switched out sumps before, but for some reason never thought of it.  I always ended up with water on the floor after siphoning out what I could and then using towels.

[TrueTricia]

So I am probably waaaaaaay too late for any plumbing advice, but I always put shut off valves just below my bulkheads.  I find that this is extremely useful if you ever have a leak, need to make plumbing adjustments, etc.  The chances are you'll never turn them, but they provide a valuable option if you ever need to.  

[howaboutme]

47 minutes ago, TrueTricia said:

So I am probably waaaaaaay too late for any plumbing advice, but I always put shut off valves just below my bulkheads.  I find that this is extremely useful if you ever have a leak, need to make plumbing adjustments, etc.  The chances are you'll never turn them, but they provide a valuable option if you ever need to.  

Never too late!

 

Plenty of people read this w/o posting so at least it helps them later.

 

I agree. I have a ball valve under my return. It will help w/ maintenance after the back flow. I'd hate to do maintenance and bang the tank/stand and have some water come back down...eeck. The main drain has the gate but nothing on emergency. The e drain is set so high that I doubt any trickle will come back. Thanks!

[TrueTricia]

12 minutes ago, howaboutme said:

Never too late!

 

Plenty of people read this w/o posting so at least it helps them later.

 

I agree. I have a ball valve under my return. It will help w/ maintenance after the back flow. I'd hate to do maintenance and bang the tank/stand and have some water come back down...eeck. The main drain has the gate but nothing on emergency. The e drain is set so high that I doubt any trickle will come back. Thanks!

 

I also have "plugs" for my drains, just in case I ever need to completely shut them down.  I've mounted the plugs to PVC pipe so they're easier to use, but to your point, most of the time, you could just use a longer piece of PVC and bring your drain pipes up high enough that they drain out completely with the return off.  I've got a one-way valve and then a shut off valve right above my return pump as well.  I like the redundancy.  The one-way valve I got is a PVC ball that's set completely in dark PVC so that there's no algae growth, and it's also got unions.  I'll probably clean it once a year, and my only complaint is that the ball floating on the inside is a bit noisy, but it's less likely to fail.  

 

Looking forward to seeing the final build.