I am defeated

[Guest fishwish]

Well, I guess it was predictable. Howard tried to warn me. And it sure is embarrassing to report this. I am sad that after only 4 days in this hobby I am not sure whether to go on or just cut my losses.

 

I bought a full 90 gal reef tank last week. Then I saw on ebay exactly what I had been looking for: a 250 gal custom setup which I won for a reasonable price! I didn't feel I could back out of the 90 gal deal, so I thought I'd use it temporarily while I took my time setting up the 250 gal and then move everything over whenever the time was right and my wallet recovered.

 

The 90 tank -- stocked with fish and hardy coral, mushrooms, and so forth -- was beautiful, but the move was MUCH more difficult than anticipated even though I researched, had a plan and followed that plan. It was an overwhelming nightmare. I've been in H-E-double hocky sticks for 4 days. To make a long story short, everything died. At least I think its all dead. (I am so sick about killing all those lovely creatures). The water is so cloudy its hard to see. I pulled what dead things I could see out and focused on stabilizing the tank, thinking I could at least keep the live rock alive. Then a light suddenly quit working, don't know why. Next, in installing the RO/DI so I could start doing frequent water changes, it leaks through the "self piercing saddle valve" even though I followed the instructions. So now I can't even do the water changes because I can't make up salt water.

 

I'm overwhelmed. I give up. I am somewhat handy and like puttering around, checking water quality etc, but I am smart enough to know that this is too much for me. I'm interested in marine life, not plumbing, wiring, drilling, sawing, building, lifting, hauling, etc., etc. ( Now I know why there are so many men in this hobby!)

 

Over the next few days I'll be making a decision. Either:

 

(1) sell the 90 gal and custom stand (I paid $600 for it, but of course the livestock died) and cancel the order I have for the 250, or

 

(2) give the 90 gal and stand to someone who is willing to set the 250 up for me and then take my time in getting it stocked.

 

I'm leaning towards #1. In any event, I want the 90 out of my house. Quickly. It

[traveller7]

( Now I know why there are so many men in this hobby!)

Us men have done far worse, it does not sound like your tank is leaking

 

Shamefully awaiting your responses....

Not that I am saying you need to stay in this hobby, but you would be well served in having a local club member drop in and check stuff out as quickly as possible. It likely assists toward comfort in option 2 as well.

 

Where are you located?

 

Sorry your first experience has been so rocky.

 

Best wishes.

 

Scott

[Guest fishwish]

Us men have done far worse, it does not sound like your tank is leaking

 

Not that I am saying you need to stay in this hobby, but you would be well served in having a local club member drop in and check stuff out as quickly as possible. It likely assists toward comfort in option 2 as well.

 

Where are you located?

 

Thanks for the kind thoughts, Scott. I'd love for someone to stop by. I'm in Alexandria, off of Duke St, near the Masonic Temple.

 

Thanks for the kind thoughts, Scott. I'd love for someone to stop by. I'm in Alexandria, off of Duke St, near the Masonic Temple.

 

And no, the tank is not leaking!!

[Valab]

This is not an easy to implement hobby for sure. Moving and resetting a tank is no simple task even for the best of them. Something always goes against the plan. This guy, who's name most everyone on this board would recognize, recently lost all of his fish in a move, and he's an expert! (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/7/aaeditorial).

 

Before you decide, get a club member (or two or three) over to your place and hear what they have to say about what you're in for, then decide. If you have any trouble getting someone to come by quickly, offer food. We men will do anything for food!

Edited July 17, 2006 by Valab

[dhoch]

It can be quite frustrating... I'll be in your area this evening so I sent you a PM with my phone # if you want me to stop by...

 

I've done it all too...

 

Some of it you learn from your mistakes (like the self piercing saddle valves... been there done that... won't do it again)...

 

Some of it you don't really every know (like why one of my corals suddenly up and RTNs (looses all it's tissue very quickly) on me, or my biggest and oldest fish... my eel up and dies for seemingly no reason)...

 

And thats not to talk off external overflows and their problems...

 

If you look at my tank now you wouldn't know all the issues I've been through

 

Dave

[emissary]

This can be a very rewarding hobby. Starting with a fully stocked tank though was probably asking for trouble. Imagine being born and suddenly being the CEO of GM. You're trying to figure out how to get milk out of a nipple and also in your spare time have to run a company of tens of thousands of employees. It's hard to jump in and know everything.

 

There is a *LOT* of not fish/aquarium related work that goes into maintaining a reef tank. You can get away with knowing very little at the get go and then picking things up as time goes on. I'm not a terribly handy person, but over time have read a lot, talked to people a lot, looked at a lot of examples and I'm still not a terribly handy person. But I know enough to have built out my plumbing, lighting, some stands, etc.

 

Whether you stay in the hobby or leave it is up to you. I'd suggest if you were to start out, start with something between 55 and 120 gallons (75 or 90 is about perfect). Do that for 5 years or so. Then trade up. You get to learn a lot, benefit from having enough water that small mistakes won't kill you -- and a small enough amount of water that a 50% water change is not impossible. Set things up one by one and you'll find you don't feel quite so much like your head's underwater.

[Ne0eN]

I think the mistake was buying a complete running 'turn-key' system, and expecting the fish, corals etc. to survive the move, set-up, and change of environement. If you really want to be sucessful in this hobby, you really need to start from scratch, and build a system S L O W L Y. Nothing good happens in this hobby quickly.

 

Don't give up. You can start from the beginning, read some books, research, re-think lessons learned, and start slowly.

 

If you're looking for advice - you're in the right place. This board is a fountain of knowledge.

 

Good luck!

 

-- Rob

[Guest Yomeister66]

Sorry to hear your first experience was such a rocky one. However, if you decide that you want to give it another shot, there is no better place to start that this board. I suggest you ask one or more of the members here to help you restart your 90 as soon as you can. After that you can decide whether or not the 250 os something you should do.

 

If you do decide to press on, I've got a bunch of rock in my sump (once live rock, now not so much) as well as some frags I' d be glad to donate to support your new effort.

 

Good luck.

[rrubberbandman]

i feel this way about my red slime on my sand bed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i am beginning to call it my unvited sexy maroon friend!

Bryan

[davelin315]

Sorry it was such a bad experience. How far a move was it? I have moved things that have taken almost 10 hours from one stop to the next, fully stocked tanks, and have not had a problem with everything dying off before. Looking back over the tank pictures, my guess is that the sand bed is what got you. It looks like it's fairly deep and it also looks like the corals were fairly large. The combination of stirring up junk from the bed and adding back that many large corals at the same time probably resulted in a huge spike of ammonia. Coupled with those large softies, that's probably what killed you.

 

Now, that said, are you certain that everything is dead? Is the water stinky and slimy or is it simply cloudy from the sand bed? It's not unusual for soft corals to shrink when moved, so maybe things are still alive and kicking? Your rock will most likely recover, although it's probably fouled a bit (by the way, if you're really quitting for the time being and your rock still looks OK, let me know, not to be a vulture, but I'm trying to collect as much rock as I can).

 

As far as the RO unit is concerned, make sure that you don't have too large a hole and that you've seated the saddle valve properly. If it's not, it'll leak. Also, it's sometimes easier to simply use a hose connector for the RO units (I know, hindsight is always easier).

 

Last, who sold you this tank? Did they give you advice on how to move it and what to do? If they didn't help you out or give you advice when you moved it, that's really not very fair. Not that it'll do much for you, as it's caveat emptor, buyer beware, but you should always seek out advice before moving things. People on here who have tons of experience still ask the questions. I've been doing saltwater for over 15 years and I wish that when I first started I had people as nice to ask questions of. I had one store owner who was great, and that was it. As I tell the kids at school, the way they can measure themselves after a mistake is how they learn from it and grow from it (I know, get off the soapbox). We have all killed our fair share of live stock in this hobby, and anyone who says they haven't is either the dalai lama of saltwater, or they're lying. My own worst mistake? I had 37 gallon tank that was dedicated to lion fish as I got a great deal on 6 baby lions, none longer than 1". I had to move the tank 3 hours away and had a crushed shell substrate. When I set the tank up again, because the shell did not hold a bacteria culture that well, there was an ammonia spike and it killed off all of the lion fish within a couple of hours. I woke up in the morning to a tank littered with dead lion fish on the bottom, all with flared gills looking for air (this story is not counting when I fed my sharks, 2 nurse sharks and a wobbegong shark, all 2.5'+, fish from the grocery store which promptly killed all of them off because of the treatments they had sprayed it with, or when I had a bat ray that got bitten by a trigger and jumped out of it's tank and died the next day after recovering enough to swim). Anyway, as you can see, we all have disasters. Yours just happened right away and all at once, but there's always a light at the end of the tunnel.

[steveoutlaw]

Whatever you do, don't give up!!! This is a great club and no matter what you've been through we can get you back on your feet with donations.

 

Let's start with the needle valve......they are a pain but are not that hard to get working correctly. I work in Alexandria off of Braddock Place so I can come by whenever to help you with it.

 

Next, the live rock. It will be fine.......just keep it in the water and make sure you have the heat and skimmer working (you do have a skimmer right?)

 

OK, cloudy water. That is just the sandstorm from filling the tank and should be gone in a day or 2. Make sure you don't have any powerheads running in the tank to keep it stirred up. Also, run your skimmer and a carbon filter (if you don't have a hang-on filter I'm sure someone in the club can lend you one).

 

Most importantly, have a club member come over and assess things. If your corals are still alive (which I'll bet they are) let a member babysit them for you in their tank until you get yours up and running. Also, like I said, this is a great club with a lot of support and we can donate frags, fish and time to help you get up and running.

 

DON'T MAKE A RASH DECISION........you'll regret it.

 

Let me know if I can help with anything.

 

Steve

[flowerseller]

Fishwish,

 

Really sorry for this first experience but don't give up, you have a plan, stick with it.

Sounds like you have many good basics to start off.

It's all hindsight now so let's all help you move forward with what you have.

The light can be fixed and the hole in the pipe too.

Without water parameters we're all guesing, but a product called Cycle will help ease the transistion and allow your tank stabilize much quicker.

 

Hang in there, it gets better.

 

Looking back over the tank pictures, my guess is that the sand bed is what got you. It looks deep and it also looks like the corals were fairly large.

Dave, what pictures of THIS tank?..... and why do you blame a sand bed ammonia spike?

[dhoch]

After being over there last night, it's not as bad as it all seems, but a lot of things going wrong at the same time...and the whole things compounds and then it get's really frustrating...

 

First off it was a very well setup system 90 gal w/sump & skimmer, 2 x 250 W MH, a whole bunch of LR and sand... with livestock a very good deal for what was paid for it...

 

Help was not really offered by the seller, and in retrospect asking for help from some of us before the move would have been very helpful (and probably would have mitigated many if not all the problems)...

 

Last night I was able to:

 

a) get the skimmer working more efficiently (it had a very nice valve adjustment) and explained what needed to be done... that will help clear the tank

 

b) Determine that one of the 250W MH bulbs is burnt out

 

c) The VHOs... err wasn't supposed to mention that

 

d) There is ammonia (~1.0 on a salifert kit), but despite that not everything is dead.

 

That being said, a couple of large water changes are needed. And the RO filter needs to be fixed (with someone more skilled in plumbing than me)... SteveOutlaw... if you can help that would be great.

 

Dave

[flowerseller]

I have extra 250w MH bulbs less the 6 months old to get you going.

I have a quick hook up for the RO unit to a utility sink.

I also have 25g of fresh salt water 1.026 ready to come get or you can have 25g of fresh established water instead.

 

Get some Cycle now and add as recommended on label and continue to add.

[dhoch]

Chip,

 

I told her last night that if she asked someone would have water

 

Dave

[steveoutlaw]

I can take a look at the needle valve tomorrow afternoon if that is convenient. Until then, just keep it sealed and get some water from members..........25g of Chips established tank water would give you a good start!!

[Guest fishwish]

After being over there last night, it's not as bad as it all seems, but a lot of things going wrong at the same time...and the whole things compounds and then it get's really frustrating...

 

 

Dave:

 

I can't thank you -- and everyone else -- enough!!! This is an amazing club. You all are a great bunch of very good people.

 

Dave appeared as if by magic last night and was truly a knight in shinning armor. Dave was so knowledgeable, helpful, and supportive. (And he tried to suppress his smile -- smirk? -- when he saw that I had the VHO in upside down. ) I only wished I had gotten more help BEFORE the move. Lesson learned.

 

But yes, there is still some life! This morning the water is clear. There is hope! I will be doing water changes... going to Wal Mart to buy some water. Also going to buy bulbs at lunch today (the second burned out last night). All offers of help gratefully accepted! Will reply to the others now.

 

Am going to move forward and am re-energized and excited again. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

 

Ellen

 

 

 

 

 

Starting with a fully stocked tank though was probably asking for trouble. Imagine being born and suddenly being the CEO of GM. You're trying to figure out how to get milk out of a nipple and also in your spare time have to run a company of tens of thousands of employees. It's hard to jump in and know everything.

 

 

Yes, I agree! That was a big mistake. Its not how I wanted to start, but it seemed like such a good deal. And then I didn't want to back out of our agreement. Not only would the living not have perished (Dave told me last night I set off a "cycle of death" :( ) but it would have been much easier and fun setting things up slowly, designing it and watching things grow. Oh well. I hope that other newbies reading this can learn from my mistake. As temping as it is, don't buy an established set up!!!

[dhoch]

Ellen,

 

Make sure you check that skimmer collection cup as it will probably need to be emptied today.

 

Dave

[flowerseller]

going to Wal Mart to buy some water.

Read the label on the water.

If it is distilled, it may have been distilled in the traditional copper coils and that is a NO NO.

 

Glad you're back up and happy.

[Guest fishwish]

I have extra 250w MH bulbs less the 6 months old to get you going.

I have a quick hook up for the RO unit to a utility sink.

I also have 25g of fresh salt water 1.026 ready to come get or you can have 25g of fresh established water instead.

 

Get some Cycle now and add as recommended on label and continue to add.

 

I assume Cycle is a chemical additive? What about Amquel? I mixed some salt water from tap last night and was going to put a chemical treatment in. Dave said that tap is better than no changes right now. And I'll pm others re their offers of help.

 

I'm off to the store and Wal Mart now.

 

Thanks again, so much. More later.

 

 

Read the label on the water.

If it is distilled, it may have been distilled in the traditional copper coils and that is a NO NO.

 

Glad you're back up and happy.

 

Oh, the label will tell me if there is copper in it? Thanks!

 

Ellen,

 

Make sure you check that skimmer collection cup as it will probably need to be emptied today.

 

Dave

Yes, I emptied it this morning. It was more than half full and skinky! Also practiced adjusting the valve like you showed me. There are more mushrooms visible this morning and they are pretty. Tank is much, much clearer. The leathers just hang there, however. My goal is to get them happy asap.

[Ne0eN]

Also going to buy bulbs at lunch today (the second burned out last night).

 

 

Hmm, something doesn't seem right. The chances of two SE bulbs burning out on you within days is rather slim. Do you know what kind of bulbs and ballasts you have?

 

Also, some ballasts have protection circuits so that it takes 5-10 minutes before they fire again once they are hot. Did you give it some time?

 

-- Rob

[HowardofNOVA]

Ellen,

FWIW for future newbies, Hard Expensive Lessons Learned Here!

But it's not the end of the world!

I would recommend trying to get rid of the 250g tank and using the money for re-stocking in the future.... distant future the 90g tank!

 

First things first is to allow the tank to finish cycling and stabilized!

Don't do anything else than David recommend and allow your tank to settle for a few days.

-It the mean time,

#1 Turn on VHO bulbs for about an 8hr period and then go and p/u a new MH bulb, but when you turn the MH on, only about 4-5hrs of time over the next week, then go to 6hrs per day and then 8hrs per day, allowing several days for tank to adjust to the new light and keeping from having an Algae Bloom.

#2 Get the copper piping fixed to get your RO/DI running to meet Dave's recommend water changes (either professional or by friend). FWIW, here are some plumbing tips, but if you don't understand, seek a friend or pro!

-You can install a 3 way "T" pipe connector under the sink by turning off the water valve and removing the the Cold Water Line and connecting back up to 3way with one end screwed with Plumbers White Tape on threads to Shutoff Valve, opposite end to Steel Hose to Cold Water Faucet and 3rd middle end to a shutoff valve with John Getz Fitting on end going to RO/DI. I'll do my best to stop in this week to help you with this procedure, but after I show you, will see it's very simple to do! EVERYONE should have this type of connection to RO/DI unit, NO SADDLE VALVES NEEDED!

BTW, depending on where you punctured a hole in the copper pipe for the saddle valve, you might need a plumber?

#3 Allow tank to settle and evaluate where you stand with Corals (Still alive) and those that are dead. Might need to take some of those out to expedite your cycling process.

Wait for more folks available to stop in and give you first hand advise! I might be in the area Wed/Thur evening, feel free to give me a call if no one else stops out?

Howard

703-899-6209

[dchild]

Oh, the label will tell me if there is copper in it? Thanks!

 

I don't think the label says copper. IME, there are 3 kinds of water in gallon jugs at supermarkets (I've not tried walmart, Shoppers always had the cheapest when I was buying by the gallon). These are

 

Drinking Water (usually says Reverse Osmosis) on it. This is the one you want. Keep looking til you find it.

 

Distilled Water - very pure, but carries the risk associated with copper coils. Avoid this.

 

Spring Water - Exactly what it says. This has not been purified at all and will have varying levels of minerals, salts, etc. Avoid this one as well.

 

Alternatively, Marine Scene can hook you up with R/O water and premixed saltwater. A bit of a hike for you though.

[davelin315]

Dave, what pictures of THIS tank?..... and why do you blame a sand bed ammonia spike?

 

The picture I looked at was from the original thread in which she said she was going to purchase it. I'm guessing the sand bed because it appears to be fairly deep in the pictures (just a guess) and if it was stirred up it could have caused a lot of problems. Without actually seeing the tank, just a guess. If anything is going to cause the ammonia to spike (which it looks like it did) very quickly, the most likely culprit is a disturbed deep sand bed. Releasing all of that anaerobic stuff can cause a big problem. Of course, it could also be the result of dead or dying corals/fish, but what killed those in the first place is also something that I suspect had to do with the sand bed. I'm always very careful (now) to not disturb the sand bed, or, in the alternative, to disturb the heck out of it and make sure to rinse it in new saltwater over and over again.

[Guest fishwish]

Hmm, something doesn't seem right. The chances of two SE bulbs burning out on you within days is rather slim. Do you know what kind of bulbs and ballasts you have?

 

Also, some ballasts have protection circuits so that it takes 5-10 minutes before they fire again once they are hot. Did you give it some time?

 

 

I agree its odd. Bad beginner's luck...

 

I don't know what type of ballasts (am not at home to look). The blubs are 250W AB double ended. I went to Wally's and Roozen's (after calling) and neither had them. (I didn't know enough then to ask for double ended when I called). Marine Scene has them but I can't get out there in time. Am going there tomorrow lunch and will also get water.

 

Yes, I gave them plently of time to fire. Dave looked at them last night and said that's what they look like when burned out. Don't know how long the guy I bought them from had them running. Oh well, what more can go wrong now??

 

The picture I looked at was from the original thread in which she said she was going to purchase it. I'm guessing the sand bed because it appears to be fairly deep in the pictures (just a guess) and if it was stirred up it could have caused a lot of problems. Without actually seeing the tank, just a guess. If anything is going to cause the ammonia to spike (which it looks like it did) very quickly, the most likely culprit is a disturbed deep sand bed. Releasing all of that anaerobic stuff can cause a big problem. Of course, it could also be the result of dead or dying corals/fish, but what killed those in the first place is also something that I suspect had to do with the sand bed. I'm always very careful (now) to not disturb the sand bed, or, in the alternative, to disturb the heck out of it and make sure to rinse it in new saltwater over and over again.

 

I don't have time right now to fully describe the move... I think there were a number of errors. But after I put the sand in, the tank was opaque/cloudy -- almost tan -- and didn't clear until today, which is 3 days (not that its totally clear now). I had to put the rocks and coral in blindly. Was wondering about that sand. Read somewhere else too late that it can cause an bacterial bloom. (?) Will avoid disturbing from now on.

 

I can take a look at the needle valve tomorrow afternoon if that is convenient. Until then, just keep it sealed and get some water from members..........25g of Chips established tank water would give you a good start!!

I've gotten some tips on fixing the leaky thingy. Will try tonight. Otherwise all offers of help with the RO/DI accepted! That's my biggest challenge right now... and getting that amonia down. Thanks and will let you know.