Issue with ATO sensor...............

[ErikS]

Came home from vacation to find the main pump making a sucking sound - yikes (thanks eheim, still running just fine).

 

Anyway the issue is the turned out to be the ATO. Best I can figure is that it "stuck" in the on position & burned out the top off pump? I took it off the tank & at first it was "stuck" in the on position but a couple puffs & it was back to functioning as normal?

 

Ordered a new peristalic pump from you guys this morning (hopefully better than the BRS ATO version)...........but the $64,000 question remains the ATO switch

 

1) is there some routine stuff I'm not doing? I'll fess up I do nothing as it's a pressure switch = matters not if the tube is clear, right?

 

2) should I trust it or just order a new one?

 

3) I've not taken it apart but I gather it's solid state = nothing I can rehab/clean/check?

 

Thanks

[Origami]

Hi Erik. Justin will probably chime in soon, but the switch is a mechanical air pressure switch, not electronic.

 

If the tubing is not secure or leaks air anywhere, the switch will not cut off. Old tubing can sometimes be a problem here if the plastic gets stiff and doesn't seal well.

 

That's my experience at least.

 

I wonder if, by handling the tubing during those "couple puffs" if the tubing shifted and sealed again? You might consider replacing the tubing if you suspect that it's leaking air or not as secure as it once was.

[ctenophore]

Hi Erik,

 

Pretty much exactly what Tom said.  Sounds like the sensor tube or soft tube connection got an air leak.  If you send me a picture of the sensor tube I can better let you know what might have happened.  Also, how old is the switch box?  Can you send a pic of the tubing connection at the switch?

 

Justin

[ErikS]

Hi Erik,

 

Pretty much exactly what Tom said.  Sounds like the sensor tube or soft tube connection got an air leak.  If you send me a picture of the sensor tube I can better let you know what might have happened.  Also, how old is the switch box?  Can you send a pic of the tubing connection at the switch?

 

Justin

Thanks guys, much appreciate it.

 

How old?            Um, ah, I dun-know A couple years maybe?

 

Tubing seems fine, I will check it for leaks & see if I can find any. It has always been pretty tight on both end, tight enough that pulling on it makes one think "pull harder & it'll break". Tubing hasn't gotten brittle at all, still flexible.

 

I'm guessing it doesn't have to be black? I have some clear air line tubing, black stuff I have is RO tubing & fairly stiff (yeah, I know it'll look ugly).

 

Should I open up the box & check the switch? (see if there's any issue with the contacts?)

[Origami]

Thanks guys, much appreciate it.

 

How old?            Um, ah, I dun-know A couple years maybe?

 

Tubing seems fine, I will check it for leaks & see if I can find any. It has always been pretty tight on both end, tight enough that pulling on it makes one think "pull harder & it'll break". Tubing hasn't gotten brittle at all, still flexible.

 

I'm guessing it doesn't have to be black? I have some clear air line tubing, black stuff I have is RO tubing & fairly stiff (yeah, I know it'll look ugly).

 

Should I open up the box & check the switch? (see if there's any issue with the contacts?)

You can open the box, but you won't see the switch contacts as they're inside the pressure switch.

[ctenophore]

Hi Erik,

 

My guess is a problem with the sensor tube. I sent you a new one in your order today.  Let me know if that fixes the problem before digging into the switch.  You can test it by submerging it in a glass of water overnight (or for several days) and see if the air level rises in the sensor tube.  If you see it creeping up, then you have a leak in the tubing somewhere.

[ErikS]

Hi Erik,

 

My guess is a problem with the sensor tube. I sent you a new one in your order today.  Let me know if that fixes the problem before digging into the switch.  You can test it by submerging it in a glass of water overnight (or for several days) and see if the air level rises in the sensor tube.  If you see it creeping up, then you have a leak in the tubing somewhere.

You didn't have to do that but thanks. Sounds like a good test.

[ErikS]

Okay, update time. I did the test(s) & couldn't find any leak. Water was static in the tube & never moved. I removed the tubing just in case -  where it connects to the PVC tube was so tight I had to cut it off. The box end was also snug but some wiggling got it off. I then tested the tubing in water w/ air pressure = no air bubbles.

 

So at this point I have zero clue aside from the status when I got home (light out, water level way down, ATO pump dead). Is it possible that the PVC tube got so dirty water got stuck inside (kept pressure) - heard of that? Seems like quite the long shot, I don't know as I was in a rush to add water.

 

Next vacation isn't for several months so I have some time to keep an eye on it.

 

Remains a mystery.........not unlike the CS1 that seems to like a power cycle daily for no reason we can figure (it performed great, the locker is almost full.............BUT.......I'm very scared to open it & clean it I know what it's like after a week )

 

On the upside I now have the new slim PVC tue & the ATO pump looks great...............really fits in with the "Avast Showroom" look I've been working on

 

Thanks again guys, I appreciate the support.

[Origami]

Wait. Did the ATO pump stock on and empty the ATO reservoir (implied in the first post) or did it never come on (implied by y your asking about taped water and air pressure, which would keep the ATO pump off).

 

It seems unlikely that the tube could get dirty enough to trap water since the narrowest part should never see water (only air). Your moving the sensor and having to blow on the tubing to restore operation seems to be the only clue.

 

In my experience, the tubing rarely has holes along the length. In the original style devices (the only ones that I have right now), the tubing was held on (at each end) by a nipple that stretched the tubing slightly expanding its inside diameter. If the plastic loses resilience (its stretchiness) in this area, a slight shift can introduce a tiny air leak. I'm only guessing when I say that I suspected that it was more likely that something like this is what you experienced, than switch contact failure. However, it's still within the realm of possibility. Another unlikely scenario might be that the internal switch' vent was blocked. I'm pretty sure that the switch compares ambient pressure and the pressure in the tubing to actuate the contacts. If the tubing pressure is higher than ambient, the contacts are open. If equal or negative, the contacts are closed and power is applied to the ATO pump.

 

Sent from my LG-V510 using Tapatalk

 

 

[ErikS]

Wait. Did the ATO pump stock on and empty the ATO reservoir (implied in the first post) or did it never come on (implied by y your asking about taped water and air pressure, which would keep the ATO pump off).

 

It seems unlikely that the tube could get dirty enough to trap water since the narrowest part should never see water (only air). Your moving the sensor and having to blow on the tubing to restore operation seems to be the only clue.

 

In my experience, the tubing rarely has holes along the length. In the original style devices (the only ones that I have right now), the tubing was held on (at each end) by a nipple that stretched the tubing slightly expanding its inside diameter. If the plastic loses resilience (its stretchiness) in this area, a slight shift can introduce a tiny air leak. I'm only guessing when I say that I suspected that it was more likely that something like this is what you experienced, than switch contact failure. However, it's still within the realm of possibility. Another unlikely scenario might be that the internal switch' vent was blocked. I'm pretty sure that the switch compares ambient pressure and the pressure in the tubing to actuate the contacts. If the tubing pressure is higher than ambient, the contacts are open. If equal or negative, the contacts are closed and power is applied to the ATO pump.

 

Sent from my LG-V510 using Tapatalk

Method of failure is vague due to the panic of coming home & hearing the main pump sucking air & not water.   What I saw was the light was out (no power to pump) and water level low. I filled it up & then checked the ATO pump (BRS top off peristalic) = dead. Took the sensor offline & played with it a bit blew in the end & it worked? I'm assuming that at some point it stuck in the on position & the pump ran until dead. What I saw was the off position.

 

What you mention may very well be the truth - it hasn't been moved (or cleaned) since install..........if it needs some air movement it may have been clogged?

 

Funny part is that two weeks before we left I did a dissassemble/clean/check/tighten all the equipment except the ATO sensor Given it's stone cold reliability who'd a thunk it

[Origami]

I've not touched my ATO sensor in well over a year. They really don't require "air flow" but it does require that the path that communicates water level (in this case, the path from the sensor to switch) be clear but sealed except at the sensor tube end.

 

I think I'm getting a sense of what you faced, but I have a few questions to clarify:

 

a) The main pump that you refer to, is this your main system pump? If it was "sucking air" then it tells me that your sump level was low. Thus, you either had a leak somewhere, blockage somewhere else (what kind of an overflow do you have? Is it a BeanAnimal setup or a type that has an emergency overflow path?), or there wasn't enough water in the ATO reservoir to top it off.

 

b) When you say, "the light was out (no power to the pump)," what light was out and what pump was not powered. Are you talking about the ATO light and the BRS pump? If yours is like mine, then the light comes on when the bottom of the sensor tube is out of the water. Thus, if the "main pump" was sucking air, I would assume that, given normal placement of the sensor tube, the light should have been on (unless the tube was in the wrong place - is it in the same compartment as the main pump intake side?).

[ErikS]

Answers -

 

a) yes, main system pump was sucking air. No leak, blockage, and top off tank had about 10 gallons remaining (of 20 total) . No beananimal (don't like it one bit) - it's an old school durso 1.5" drain w/ an 800gph (1262) pump = could block about 3/4 of it & it would still keep up. Sump is 3 chamber with final being over & down into the main return pump area = that's the area where the level will drop first. This is where the ATO sensor is located as well as where the make up water comes in.

 

b) Yes, I heard the sound & came into the sump room. What??? Sump is down 4 - 5" in the main pump section.........I guess about 2 or 3 days? (not terribly long). Look up & the sensor light is out (no power to pump). PVC section of the sensor is WAY out of the water, maybe 5". In my rush to get a pump & get topoff into the tank I did not examine the PVC section closely. While the tank was toping off enough to save the eheim (darn they're rugged) I did plug the ATO pump into a regular outlet = no movment, just grinding a "grinding gears" sound. Once I got things squared away I started messing with the ATO sensor. Just cleaned the PVC tube, checked it over & blew into it = it works!

 

Ordered the pump from Avast as I knew the old one was shot (see showroom above ) Posted this to check and see if my "Ron Popiel set it & forget it" approach was wrong..........maybe I should be cleaning/checking something?

 

And yes I'm 99% certain there's no leaks.........my Dart (closed loop) is singing the song of a failing seal (not leaking) so I've checked in all the hidden spots.

 

Could it be some sort of anomaly? Yep, I seem to be the poster child for that - check the skimmer thread in this forum, it would seem I have the only Sicce pump that demands a daily shut off. It's been working flawlessly since I put it on a once a day on/off cycle

[Origami]

I know the song. I have a Dart that I recently pulled out and need to rebuild - when I've got the time, of course.

 

I'm getting a picture of what you faced. I don't have an answer but this is my train of thought given what you've said:
 

So the peristaltic pump died somewhere along the way. The reservoir wasn't empty, so we know that it's unlikely that the ATO stayed on otherwise the reservoir would probably have emptied. But then evaporation kicks in and your tank level drops.

 

Now the ATO should come on and so should the light. But that's not what you see.

 

I pause now, because on my original model, the lens that was used over the light is kind of directional. I can't see that the outlet is powered unless I'm nearly straight on. If you're looking at it from an angle, maybe it looks off but is really on. It's a possibility, but then you would have heard the grinding of gears on the peristaltic pump when you came in the room, right? Is it at all possible that the ATO unit was not plugged in very well? - There's only two reasons that the light would not be on (assuming that the lamp works): The circuit is open or there's no power. If the power were out, you'd know it probably. The only way the circuit should be open is if the diaphragm switch didn't detect the equal pressure or if air was trapped in the tubing. (I guess the latter could happen if there was water trapped in the sensor tubing that blocked in air - but how could that happen?)

 

Anyway, you unplug the peristaltic pump. In the process, you probably jar the ATO box just a little. I don't know if that has any impact on it, but thought I'd note it. In the process, maybe you push the ATO into the outlet a little further. You then plug the pump into an open outlet. It works but it's gears are grinding. Sometime later you then unplug the ATO and, upon blowing into the sensor tube, find it works.

 

Mysterious.

[ErikS]

I know the song. I have a Dart that I recently pulled out and need to rebuild - when I've got the time, of course.

 

...............................

 

Mysterious.

Mysterious is right...........but then given the thought we give to systems (& their failure points) mysterious is correct.

 

It wasn't a outlet issue, the outlet in use is the GFCI - not tripped, tight outlet = not loose.

 

The best I can figure is that the switch at some point stayed in the open position & the pump burned out. Like the Avast model the BRS version is not designed for constant use. They'll fail if used constantly. I figure it ran until it failed & then from there the water level just kept getting lower. I'm also assuming there was some sort of leak/blockage of the ATO sensor tubing that caused it to stay both open (no power) and closed (power).....................

 

........but then who knows, what we do know is all devices are subject to failure - when & where is anyone's guess.

 

What I do know - like yours I have the original version.......but....the viewing is straight on (pretty much anyway)

[Origami]

The contacts on the switch, if I recall, are supposed to be pretty robust: Rated for 3A and 10 million cycles.

[ErikS]

The contacts on the switch, if I recall, are supposed to be pretty robust: Rated for 3A and 10 million cycles.

Which is why I never pay any attention to it Still a mystery, working fine for the last week.