Any alternatives to Copper?

[LCDRDATA]

I've been battling what I believe to be an ich outbreak in my eel tank since Christmas. Nitrates a bit high (working on that), all other parameters good. So far I've treated with the following:

 

- Kick Ich (~3 weeks)

- generic methylene blue/formalin treatment (~10 days)

- SeaChem Paraguard (into third week now).

 

Just prior to/immediately after switching to the Paraguard I lost several fish (porcupine puffer, blue reef chromis, lawnmower blenny, Klein's butterfly), which I attribute at least partially to the generic treatment being ineffective. The snowflake moray has shown no sign, but the scribbled rabbitfish has been symptomatic throughout, and the humu trigger is now showing signs. I have dropped the salinity to about 1.02, and have been doing 20% water changes about every other day for the past couple of weeks. Photos are posted below.

 

Although the tank is a FOWLR, I have wanted to keep the option of adding some algae-eating inverts (especially since the rabbitfish doesn't seem to like what's growing in the tank) so I'm reluctant to use copper. At the same time, I don't want to lose any more fish, and I think my 10-gallon frag/QT tank is too small to treat the rabbitfish in.

 

SO - am I mis-diagnosing this and treating for the wrong ailment? Is there any other effective, non-copper-based treatment I can use that leaves open the option for inverts in the future? For the longer term, how much would a UV sterilizer be effective in preventing these types of disease outbreaks?Thanks!

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2013 by LCDRDATA

[collegeman]

I would use cupramine and remove it with carbon. I have done this before and had a reef setup using the same rock and sand. I used cupramine on both of my eels(skeletor and golden dwarf). The trick is to slowly add until you get to the target dosage. I usually add a little over the course of a week.

[ridetheducati]

Based on your pix, I don't think you are treating ALL the issues. The fish may have ich, but I also see flukes. Copper/Cupramine will not eradicate flukes, get some Prazipro or Praziquantel.

 

Do you plan on running your main display fallow?

[LCDRDATA]

No, but this isn't my main display tank. At the same time, the real reason for the tank is a 30" snowflake moray, which (fortunately) so far shows no signs of any malady whatsoever; I have nowhere else to put him, so need to treat in situ. Can I use the cupramine and prazi at the same time, or does it need to be sequential?

[Coral Hind]

Do not dose prazi or any dechlorinator with cupramine. They make the cupramine break down into a more harmful form of copper.

 

http://wamas.org/forums/topic/45920-prazipro-and-cupramine-dead-fish/

[Coral Hind]

The fish may have ich, but I also see flukes.

Can you point out where you see the flukes?

[ridetheducati]

Can you point out where you see the flukes?

 

Look closely around the eyes. It can be confirmed if the OP observes the eye(s) for an extended period to determine any fluke movement on the eye. If it is not fluke, possibly bacteria infection.

[basser9]

Kick ick dosent work i know because i lost alot of fish trying to make it work.

Wonder how they can sell it with a straight face.

On your algae try putting some mollies in there they are great should strip

any algae away then pass them on.

I had to lose a few tank full of fish to ick before i bit the bullet for a 40breeder quarantine.

Edited January 27, 2013 by basser9

[zygote2k]

How about this-

drop the nitrates, clean the excess detritus and algae, feed the fish.

It'll go away in a few weeks and all back to normal.

[ridetheducati]

... i bit the bullet for a 40breeder quarantine.

 

+1

[LCDRDATA]

Look closely around the eyes. It can be confirmed if the OP observes the eye(s) for an extended period to determine any fluke movement on the eye. If it is not fluke, possibly bacteria infection.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like what you're saying is to check to see if the spots move, and if they do, they're flukes. Here are a pair of shots I just took, so they are about nine-ten hours after the previous ones:

 

 

 

As the spots near the eye and near the top of the dark stripe appear minimal or gone, I presume you'd say these were the flukes, correct?

 

Kick ick dosent work i know because i lost alot of fish trying to make it work.

Wonder how they can sell it with a straight face.

On your algae try putting some mollies in there they are great should strip

any algae away then pass them on.

I had to lose a few tank full of fish to ick before i bit the bullet for a 40breeder quarantine.

 

I've had mixed results with Kick Ich, when I've used it in the past it's been about 50/50. Unfortunately, this case is on the wrong side of that balance.

 

I actually had some mollies in the tank awhile back, but they wouldn't eat the algae and kept going through the overflow (until I blocked it off) and I eventually had to remove them.

 

As for the QT, I understand, but that's not the issue here, as I had both of these fish for some time (the rabbitfish, actually a good bit longer) with no issues. Unless you are suggesting the 40 breeder for a hospital tank as well, which would be great -- except I'd have to put it on the dining room table because there is nowhere else for it. And as much as I like my fish, if it's them or me (vis-a-vis my wife, and her reaction to "losing" the dining room table) I'm going to pick me.

 

I've got the message not to mix cupramine & prazi; does anyone know offhand if our N. VA sponsoring LFSs carry Coppersafe and the pure prazi? Has anyone had luck using a post-Coppersafe setup with any inverts? Thanks again everyone!

[ridetheducati]

Keep monitoring the eyes, if you notice a change in color and shape of the "cloudy" area, I would say they are flukes. Important note: It is rare, but sometimes flatworms that look like flukes can exist on the eyes and Prazi will not cure flatworms. I think Formalin is the only thing that will get the flatworms. IMHO you could potentially have flukes, not you personally.

[LCDRDATA]

Keep monitoring the eyes, if you notice a change in color and shape of the "cloudy" area, I would say they are flukes.

 

Can you describe a little more how the flukes appear or affect the eye's appearance? I only know that this fish has looked like it has cataracts since day 1 (I keep thinking of the "vulture eye" in Edgar Allen Poe's The Tell-Tale Heart and the Alan Parson's Project song of the same name, but I digress...). There was formalin in the "generic" ich treatment I used when I ran out of Kick Ich, but that treatment didn't do anything as best I can tell. Unfortunately, I was working crazy hours at the time and wasn't able to monitor the results -- or more correctly, the lack thereof -- of the treatment. My wife & daughter are still angry with me for "letting" their puffer die .

 

Other than what I'm already doing and a different chemical treatment, the only alternative or additional step I can think of is a UV sterilizer. What do y'all think?

Edited January 28, 2013 by LCDRDATA

[LCDRDATA]

Other than what I'm already doing and a different chemical treatment, the only alternative or additional step I can think of is a UV sterilizer. What do y'all think?

 

Anyone?

[Orion]

A UV is only going to zap free floating parasites, and keep in mind that while it may help get some, it won't kill them all.

In all honesty I think unless you QT every fish, and leave the display tank fishless for 8-12 weeks the ich will remain in the tank unless your fish develop an immunity all of a sudden. Even then there is no guarantee its all gone.

 

[Orion]

Here is an excellent article on treating ich. http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/52236-curing-fish-marine-ich.html

[Coral Hind]

Even if the UV doesn't kill it all it does keep the population down so that the fish can survive long enough for the copper or other meds to take effect.

[LCDRDATA]

I went ahead and purchased Cupramine this evening, but have not started treating with it as it was pointed out that copper formulations are particularly hard on scaleless fish, i.e., the main inhabitant of the tank (my snowflake moray). I've shut down my overflow & sump (these may have reduced the effectiveness of the previous treatments) and purchased a 30-gallon Rubbermaid roughneck trash can, which will roughly triple the amount of salt water I can prepare at one time for a truly significant water change (~80%) to bring the nitrates down. I'll probably purchase a UV sterilizer and otherwise play it by ear the next few days.

 

My wife pointed out that in addition to the 15 gallon high I recently traded for to use as a sump, we have other aquariums (likely a standard 20 and/or a 29-30) in the garage that could probably be cleaned out for use as a hospital tank. She also located a spot it could go (temporarily, but long enough to treat). So my next question is, for a 6" rabbitfish and 2 1/2" humu, what's the minimum size tank I can use (assuming I can catch them)? Thank you all again!

[Coral Hind]

You can run copper if kept at lower concentration levels without hurting the eel. Curamine is more gentle than other forms of copper. Slowly bring the levels up over a couple of days and then run the Cupramine at 0.30-0.35mg/L instead of the full strength 0.5-0.6 mg/L. Here is something that states the levels Cupramine will still be effective at.

 

"ACTION: Cupramine eradicates Oodinium and Ich at 0.1–0.2mg/L, Cryptocaryon at 0.25–0.35 mg/L, Trematodes and other parasites at 0.4–0.5 mg/L. With a 10–14 day exposure at 0.4 mg/L most infestations will be eradicated and secondary bacterial and fungal infections will be controlled."

 

Taken from the following link: http://www.seachem.c...s/Cupramine.pdf

 

Make sure to keep your SG from rising as evaporation can increase the Cu concentration slightly. If you happen to slightly go over the 0.35 level I add water to lower the SG which dilutes the Cu slightly and a slightly lower SG is always therapeutic on the fish.

[collegeman]

I was able to run cupramine at the full dose. Just slowly bring the level up. Most people raise the level too quickly and have bad results.

[ridetheducati]

So my next question is, for a 6" rabbitfish and 2 1/2" humu, what's the minimum size tank I can use (assuming I can catch them)? Thank you all again!

 

Place the rabbitfish in the largest hospital tank you have; he will be in there for several weeks. Also, ensure you have plenty of salt on hand.

[LCDRDATA]

Place the rabbitfish in the largest hospital tank you have; he will be in there for several weeks. Also, ensure you have plenty of salt on hand.

The good news is, I've got lots of salt. The bad news is, the rabbitfish expired this morning at ~ 7:10 am. I can say this because I peaked in at ~7:05 and it was breathing (if labored), and when I next peaked in at ~7:15 it was no longer breathing.

 

I was, however, able to get the 15 High set up as a hospital tank and my wife caught the humu, who at the moment looks as happy as the proverbial clam. He's small enough that he seems to have more than adequate room. So hopefully we'll at least get him through this. I was also able to fairly closely inspect about the front third of the eel, and he shows no sign of any ich or other malady. After the large water change tonight hopefully we'll be able to keep it that way.

[Coral Hind]

So are you going to remove all the fish and treat in a hospital tank and let the main tank go fallow? Just because the eel looks clean doesn't mean he is.

[LCDRDATA]

So are you going to remove all the fish and treat in a hospital tank and let the main tank go fallow? Just because the eel looks clean doesn't mean he is.

Although in the best of worlds I would probably do that, I don't have a hospital tank the eel would fit in and/or that wouldn't be more stressful than staying where he is. But, after the massive water change this evening the water quality should be significantly better (not to mention a good reduction in whatever ich parasites were in the free-swimming stage). I'm also going to finish out the paraguard regimen -- which should be more effective now that my sump won't be dispersing it -- and if need be I'll go to the low-dose cupramine as described by others previously in the thread (thank you all, by the way). Along with the UV sterilizer I will be adding, I think that the eel should be OK, and I'll be watching for any sign that he isn't.

[Coral Hind]

My concern is that the ich will not be totally killed and when other fish are added back to the tank you could have another out break. Hopefully the UV and other steps keep it in check. Good luck.