Led Lighting New 120 Maxspect Razor R420R 160 Watt 10000

[Collietm]

Transferring 75 gallons to

120 gallons 48L X 24W 24H tank reef ready

4 inch sand beds Need additional live rock Refugium\Sump 36L15WX16H, Diablo XS-225 skimmer Mag 12 return pump Power Compacts two 96 watts dual 420/460 compacts two 96 watts 96w10000k compacts

 

Would like to change the lighting to Maxspect Razor R420R 160 Watt 10000 K LED Fixture What the Pros and Cons for the

Maxspect Razor R420R 160 Watt 10000 K LED Fixture 27 inch

Please advice

 

Thanks

collietm

[DCReefer1964]

I would go with the Evergreen Group Buy. Buying retail is not the way to go you have limits, Here there are a lot of Reefers who have experience in this matter crawl before you buy.

[basser9]

The razor is the only nondiy led that i would buy.

Get the 16k razor not the 10k.

Those cheaper chinese bridgelux fixtures are not even in the

same dicussion with a razor ....THEY ARE OKAY for the money

but theres a tremendous difference in cree/rebels and chinese emmitters.

Its the difference between a cheap mh bulb and a radium20k they both grow

corals and thats where the similarities end,

 

Heres a interesting set of beam shots between high cri emmitters....

My build will be using NICHIA 4500hcri leds for whites.

You see the difference between these high quality leds in term of color rendering

its really a difference when you start talking about the chinese emmitters.

Edited January 25, 2013 by basser9

[Jason Rhoads]

they both grow corals

 

This is all that matters... Well this and the $$ that will still be in your pocket if you go with BL LEDs.

 

Forgive my ignorance, but if you are using a mixture of colors (RB, 4500k, 6500k, etc...) wouldn't the color rendering for a given emitter be a moot point?

[basser9]

There are alot of things to consider when going to leds.

Price vrs quality being a big one.

RESALE AND durability

Most people are not aware that the Chinese whites degrade at a alarming rate

the blues are pretty solid...They are very cheap to replace so its not a issue

if you are diy type.....but if you are diy capable then make a diy fixture.

The difference between the coatings[phosphors]that are used on chinese whites

and crees/rebels are like night and day and make it very hard to get a crisp

color rendering out of a reef tank.

Its the difference between taking a pic with a cheap vrs high end camera.

You would no more argue the merits of a 50 dollar camera against a dlsr

yet they both take pictures then you can argue the merits or a Chinese emitter

vrs a cree/rebel.

Its all about your budget.

Believe me i have a ton of Chinese emitters and have built alot of fixtures

and they are okay but the difference when you talk about a cree/rebel fixture

is night and day.

That being said i did notice the tank in question is 48inches long and thats to long

for a single RAZOR unless you dont mine DARK CORNERS.

2 small razors or if thats to much cash i would get 2 reefbreeder types if you cant diy.

Edited January 25, 2013 by basser9

[jimlin]

any difference between the cree and rebel?

[basser9]

Not really.

Heres a pic of par levels of a razor over a 48inch tank......can be done

The high cri 5k rebel is a great led to mix 1 to 1 with a cree royal.

Once you start mixing RGB into mixes you need to be aware of color banding

issues that in deep tanks can be horrible.

As long as you can change out some leds or adjust each color channell at least

you can try to work around those issues.

The reefbreeders type mix of leds can cause terrible colorbanding unless you can raise

them up but for the price you can get them at in a group buy you could do worst

but the razor really is worth the extra money if you have it.

[Quantum Reefs]

If you get the Razor, go with the 16K version, not the 10K. The 10K will be a bit more yellow. We've got several customers with the Razor 16K and they are absolutely stunning. Sleek, thin and bright.

[zygote2k]

I've been playing with LED's and building light systems for about 5 years now. I've actually installed 23 different light sysytems using LED's.

Resale value isn't something that you should consider when you purchase an LED system. Until the Evergrows popped up on the market, I would have recommended Ecoxotic Panorama Pro modules for ultimate cheap lights. If you were going for more of a turn key solution, I would recommend an AI, Maxxspect, or Radion. If you were going for pendant style lights I would say to use the Par 38 spotlights or the 50 and 100w Cannons.

Evergrows and their ilk are game changers because of the extreme price difference. Since you can fully customize the colors and even get a controlled light for $200, it's a no brainer to go with this option first, then improve on current light and buy another. There have been so many people who have thought one of the major brands would work, then sold them because they weren't happy and lost a ton of money.

Start cheap and work your way up. If you don't like your Evergrow lights, I'll buy them back from you.

[BowieReefer84]

basser9 really knows what he is talking about. He has shown me led's pop colors in corals I couldn't have ever imagined seeing. I am probably one of the few who dislike the shimmer (messes with my head).

 

However, if you have a canopy and diy skills go that route with basser9's suggested combo's. If you don't want to DIY 16k Razor's are great looking. I saw them at QR, and they look really slick. When it comes to the retail market you get what you pay for (except with AI's...).

 

Goodluck with whatever route you decide to take

Edited January 25, 2013 by BowieReefer84

[Jason Rhoads]

While I have seen some really nice looking tanks under BL LEDs I cannot speak to their degradation. I will defer to the experts in that area

 

 

 

I do think that you should try the cheaper LEDs before you buy something expensive. I had a PFO Solaris fixture back in the day and spent around $1k on it used. I got burned pretty badly on the deal (it didn’t keep my SPS alive, and my softies were reaching for light) and luckily I was able to eBay it for around $800.

 

 

 

I waited for awhile before taking the LED plunge again and then only after the BL LEDs proved that they could support the coral I wanted to keep. I built myself a small fixture first and watched the growth over the span of 6 months before I went all in and built a DIY fixture for the DT. I love the colors that my leds put out, and am happy with the growth in the corals. But I have not had them long enough to see any degradation in the whites.

 

Good discussion guys!

[basser9]

If you are setting up a reef tank which to me means a decent amount of sps then the ideal

that you should start with a cheap led is a little strange to me.

You are finally starting to see some nice under 500.00 led replacements for mh setups.

A razor is without question a direct replacement for a 250 watt mh setup.

If you were to buy a lumenbright reflector a nice ballast and 3 20k[2/3 year supply] radiums this would

be about the price of the small razor/large razor.

To me the razor is the game changer not the chinese bridgelux at least for SPS .

Resale on a razor should be really good over a long period and a mh setup is a dime a dozen

and the bridgelux fixtures are really junk so the resale value does matter if all the other factors are a wash.

When you look at your difference in electric usage the abilty to rampup/down the great color from 420 to warm specs

the par of a 250 mh and good spread......then realize it cost really the same as a nice mh setup

 

GET A RAZORhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQYuGHbN9nc

 

Heres a 220gal with 3 120 razor look at the coverage this is such a step up from MH in terms of electric/heat its unreal

I ran 4 lumenbrights with 250watt phoenix on a 150 and these cover better and have the same par...1000watts to 360. .

Edited January 25, 2013 by basser9

[Jason Rhoads]

It isn't the razor, but I saw a guy selling this setup on another forum and thought you may be interested:

Maxspect Mazzara P LED systems

 

http://www.carolinafishtalk.com/forum/sale-wtb-trade/47650-fs-royal-exclusiv-vertex-alpha-200-maxspect-mazzara-p-led-systems.html

[CaptainRon]

It isn't the razor, but I saw a guy selling this setup on another forum and thought you may be interested:

Maxspect Mazzara P LED systems

 

 

There's a guy on THIS forum selling the same thing. With more options for LESS money too!

Edited January 26, 2013 by CaptainRon

[basser9]

Chechout this tank one side the RAZOR the other 2 of the chinese fixtures so many here have bought.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-nnJDj2sJ8&list=UUf81VnlOpbuNrNlt459jpwA&index=1

Edited January 26, 2013 by basser9

[zygote2k]

basser- why are the bridgelux emitters junk? Is this just your opinion or is there some justifiable facts here?

[Jason Rhoads]

Only thing I see in that video is more light coverage on the Chinese side.

[Jason Rhoads]

Also, just to be clear Bridgelux is a US company that manufactures in the US.

[Decadence]

I tend to disagree with a lot of people about LEDs, the main reason for this would be coverage. Having a fixture like the Razor gives you a very small area which light actually comes from. LEDs (because of the way which they actually emit photons) broadcast light on an extremely direction basis so you wind up with a very intense light directly under the individual LED bulbs and i dissipates rather quickly towards the edges. To save money, the companies use very small heatsinks (aluminum = $) and bunch all of the lights closely together. This gives a high PAR value under the cluster of LEDs using fewer bulbs and poor PAR ratings everywhere else. It also casts dark shadows which cause poor coloration on half of a coral while the other half looks great. You can have a completely health coral by doing this but if the coral is closer to the viewer than the light (relative to the spacial relation perpendicular to the beam of light) you can wind up with lack-luster color on a coral. The issue isn't the coral, it is the direction of light.

 

Here are some examples from my own tank. Notice how the pictures show great color in the highlighted areas from the front but are otherwise dark. From the top where the directional light hits it, color is amazing.

 

front

 

top

 

front

 

top

 

Because of this issue, I find trouble in recommending any certain LED fixture because they will most certainly need additional lighting to get the color people are truly looking for. In the past, I have achieved this by building PAR38 LED color accent lights and screwing them in to clamp-on light fixtures. These can get annoying unless you have the ability to mount them high:

 

 

With a narrow tank like this one, the coverage which I got was great. With my 18" and 24" wide tanks, I would put a metal halide or T5 fixture on before I ever subjected my corals to this very narrow light source. I'm combatting this issue by building three small fixture for every 24"x24" are of the tank. The lights are being set up for optimal viewing. The first 14"x3" heat sink with 10 white and 10 blue 3w LEDs will be mounted completely flat about 6" from the back of the tank. The next heat sink is slightly larger at 14"x5" and accommodates 10 white, 12 blue, 2 red and 3 UV 3w LEDs. This heat sink will be mounted at a 10 degree angle, pointed down an slightly back at the corals to get better light spread on the visible plane. The final heat sink will again be 14" x 3" and will accommodate 6 white, 8 blue and 7 UV LEDs. This heat sink will be mounted at a 20 degree angle, mounted even with the front pane of glass, and will be the most visible spread of light when viewed from the front. Because of this, I am going more heavy with the UV LEDs as they bring out amazing color. The unfortunate part of UV LEDs is that they have a limited shelf life and will eventually destroy themselves (UV damages the lens on the actual LED).

[steveoutlaw]

Is it me or is there no shimmer on the Chinese side?

[Decadence]

All of the corals in that video were grown with only one of those Chinese lights on each side, supplemented by what looks like a T8 actinic tube.

 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Y12rQO3kIoM

 

I would assume that in the video which you posted, the ones on the right are dimmed to the blue spectrum.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Decadence

[Decadence]

Is it me or is there no shimmer on the Chinese side?

 

Shimmer is directly related to spread. This is why T5 bulbs do not have shimmer. By mounting two fixtures that low on one side, they will nearly eliminate all shimmer because of how tightly packed all of the LED bulbs are.

[basser9]

I dont want to muddy this post as the question was about buying a RAZOR but

one of the reasons the razor is worth more is because they dont use cheap

asian built bridgelux chips.

All 3 watt bridgelux chips you buy will be a chip made in ASIA licensed buy the american

co.,,,Alot of fake chips around with very poor quaity issues.

The biggest problem is with the carriers they come on and the way they get attached to the

heatsink.

Even the non ES rebels degrade really fast if overheated even a little bit.

The other chips from china that are knock offs are really bad if the JUNCTION temp rises

very little.

These chips are cheap and easy to replace so thats a factor in there favor.

[Decadence]

Some Cree bulbs are manufactured in NC but their largest production facilities are in China. A product being made in China has nothing to do with its quality. All LEDs will have their output decreased over time. The life of the bulbs is considered to be where roughly 70% output is reached. Advances in LEDs are coming so rapidly that five years from now, the Razor will decline by as much as a five-year-old metal halide fixture would. You could build a DIY LED fixture with Chinese bulbs which destroys the Razor in every aspect of functionality for half of the price.

 

At some point, the degradation of the individual bulb has to be outweighed by the initial price of the bulbs in the fixture. By this, I mean that I could buy one of the Chinese 120w fixtures and replace every single bulb in the fixture seven times before they investment levels out. I know people with the same Chinese fixtures over SPS tanks which have been running reliably for three to four years already.

 

Personally, I have installed hundred of 1w and 3w Chinese bulbs in DIY fixtures (mostly branded as epistar) and have never had a single electrical failure of a single bulb in years. That said, the UV bulbs do destroy their own lenses so they should be considered to have a shelf life. I would say that they drop in output about 10% a month if used 12 hours a day. This isn't because the bulb is "burning", it is because the UB wavelengths destroy the plastic. I have brought some of these back by polishing the top of the lens by this is time consuming and in the end, I just prefer to replace them.

[Jason Rhoads]

Some Cree bulbs are manufactured in NC but their largest production facilities are in China. A product being made in China has nothing to do with its quality. All LEDs will have their output decreased over time. The life of the bulbs is considered to be where roughly 70% output is reached. Advances in LEDs are coming so rapidly that five years from now, the Razor will decline by as much as a five-year-old metal halide fixture would. You could build a DIY LED fixture with Chinese bulbs which destroys the Razor in every aspect of functionality for half of the price.

 

At some point, the degradation of the individual bulb has to be outweighed by the initial price of the bulbs in the fixture. By this, I mean that I could buy one of the Chinese 120w fixtures and replace every single bulb in the fixture seven times before they investment levels out. I know people with the same Chinese fixtures over SPS tanks which have been running reliably for three to four years already.

 

Personally, I have installed hundred of 1w and 3w Chinese bulbs in DIY fixtures (mostly branded as epistar) and have never had a single electrical failure of a single bulb in years. That said, the UV bulbs do destroy their own lenses so they should be considered to have a shelf life. I would say that they drop in output about 10% a month if used 12 hours a day. This isn't because the bulb is "burning", it is because the UB wavelengths destroy the plastic. I have brought some of these back by polishing the top of the lens by this is time consuming and in the end, I just prefer to replace them.

I wish this forum had a "like" button.