Venting about "vendor whining"

[gtipower]

*WARNING* If you are easily offended or don't like reading opinions where it can be construed as mean or rude, then don't bother reading it. It's just my humble opinion.

 

 

 

If vendors think that talking bad about other competing vendors gets them more customers, they are wrong. I just finished reading the "Funny Business" thread after being busy from the holidays and am shocked at the complaints stores throw at one another. I felt the need to be a little polite and not post it in any vendor's forum but in here since it is my vendor experience.

 

Here's what I understood from the thread-

 

I guess the 2 main points were these:

 

1) The accused business is less moral and has different business practices than the accuser. The accuser is trying to show you something from behind the scenes.

 

2) The accused business runs a "chop shop" so it is "bad" somehow.

 

 

 

My humble opinion:

 

1) First, I find it VERY hard to believe a COUPLE DOZEN people walk into his store EACH WEEK and TRUTHFULLY telling the accuser that some coral they wanted was sold out at the accused. Either the accuser is embellishing or the customers are not telling the truth and trying to get on the accuser's good side, knowing the history of the 2 stores. I visit the accused store fairly often and the only times something would be sold out is if it was a great sale where there were limited quantities as he would state in his sale ad. (i.e. Powder Blue Tang during fish sales).

Second, so what if he is selling something he doesn't have in the store but is going to get? As long as he is willing to refund your money if he doesn't get it or comes in DOA, what is the problem? I don't think he will close this retail store so that he can run away with your $100. Do retail stores never have pre-sales (books, video games, etc.)?? And when you order a special expensive fish or equipment not in stock (i.e. Achilles Tang), do you not put a deposit down?

This is taken from the accuser's sticky thread:

"We do not stock Tropic Marin but if you prepay and order by monday we will sell at list pricing."

UH OH. They don't have it!!! This is ethically unacceptable!!! (note the sarcasm). The accused stated he didn't have it and told everyone who called to order that it wasn't there. Could a customer have at that point said "ok sorry, but I rather buy coral that is already in the store"? Of course. As long as the people ACTUALLY buying the coral knows about it before the actual purchase, who really cares? Why should anyone who has NO intention of buying those items care whether it's physically in the store or not? Has NOTHING to do with anybody besides those who are actually interested in buying it.

What's this "behind the scenes" that we are given? That the transshipper gets it Sat./sun and ships it out for delivery Mon.? Or that the accused is trying to sell a coral he is suppose to get in a couple days? Gee thanks. I don't really consider that behind the scenes since that info can be known fairly easily and volunteered by the accused himself. If the accuser really wants to give us a "behind the scenes" look, how bout showing us the wholesale prices of the coral that he gets in for one of his orders? He says he's not about the money or profit, so he probably won't mind right? (sarcasm again )

 

2) So they frag their corals. Whats the problem? They're not healed? But wait. Who's fault is it when they buy a coral they see in person or in a pic and it doesn't look healed? Unless you have vision problems, the buyer should be responsible for what they purchase when they can CLEARLY see it is not fully healed. As some of the posters already pointed out, people get freshly fragged corals from other reefers constantly. But somehow that's ok because it's not a store. No one is forcing anyone to buy freshly cut frags from the accused. Even if you go in the store, it is still YOUR own choice to buy that unhealed frag. If YOU choose not to wait to purchase the frag until it is healed, then how can you blame the store for YOUR choice to take that risk? The store is merely offering the product, not forcing anyone to buy it right at that moment. I have had corals die from different places before. I NEVER blamed the store for it unless it was because of the shipping/packaging method (but that's internet orders). If you are driving far to get a certain coral, just ask them when they fragged it and if it's healed. It's like asking the LFS to feed a fish before you buy it. It's not the store's responsibility to show everyone that comes in that the fish will eat frozen or pellets. If they do, great. If not, then just ask. The last time I checked, the real world DOES NOT take your hand and guide you around until you are ready to go. You do your own research, you learn from talking to others, reading, and your own experiences (good and bad). It's not another person's responsibility to inform you of every single risk or problem that may or may not occur.

 

ALL businesses are out to make a profit. Just as much as a customer wants a good deal. When a business tells me their main goal is not to make money, then that is when I stop believing them. When a business tells me, "Yep, we're trying to make some money, this is my livelihood as a small business owner, lets make a deal we both like." Then I feel that he's being straight. If we can't settle on a deal, then oh well. I don't have to buy it if I don't want to, and I don't have to visit the store if I don't want to.

 

I also found it hilarious that somehow, selling TOO MANY corals means you don't care about the long term health of this industry. Has the accuser (screw it, I feel like I'm in Harry Potter and can't say the name Voldemort,lol), F and F, ever said to customers, "wait we've already sold 20 corals this month, that's my quota and we're not going to sell anymore for the next 2 weeks?" We're hurting the industry. LOL.

 

But hey, let me just go along with F and F's philosophy for a second. We will ignore any extraneous factors that cannot be controlled by the store (i.e. whether the customer will frag and share their coral with others). So say they get in 20 pieces of coral in an order. And Mr.Coral gets in the same. Let's say there are 100 F and F customers and 100 Mr.Coral customers that want those 20 pieces EACH. If we go by F and F's method, he sells EACH piece whole. It would take (20x100) 2000 pieces of coral to fulfill those customers demands. MrCoral takes those pieces and frags them into, say legitimately, 5 decent pieces each. That means MrCoral will need 400 pieces of corals to fulfill those demands. Umm yes 400<2000. From an economics POV, he is filling the same demand with 5 times less supply. Not only is he saving money, but he is also saving the supply (aka the Reefs or long term health of this industry) as well! The retort could be, oh, well F and F would be selling aquacultured coral, so that logic doesn't apply (since maricultured is taken from the wild anyways, has same eventual effect as direcly taken from wild). Last time I checked, MrCoral has sold ORA and FHI and local grown coral as well. But even so, say ORA had 100 Red Planets and 200 people wanted it. If all 100 were given to Store A that didn't frag, then 100 people would still be left wanting a nice looking SPS coral. They might not wait for the next batch and search for a maricultured or wild colony instead. If Store B fragged the 100 Red Planets into 2 pieces each, knowing there were 200 people wanting it. He ends up with 200 satisfied customers and at the very least, indirectly slowed the demand down for wild SPS corals. Thus again, preserving the supply just that much more.

*breath*

Besides, did anyone read that reef magazine article about how our hobby in a way is saving the reefs by taking pieces from the wild? Since the world's reefs are not exactly in great shape due to environmental factors, if we do our job to grow them out in our tanks, we hobbists could end up preserving certain species and might be supplying the reefs in the distant future. Pretty interesting POV. If we all only raised aquacultured corals, we might end up with the Great Barrier ORA Reef, full of Red Planets and Birds of Paradise corals, in the 23rd century lol.

 

It's funny, as kids, tattle tellers were supposed to be wrong and made fun of. I guess it's ok when you're an adult?

[Noobalicious]

Too bad this hadn't been posted when it was relevant.

 

Since no one had been talking about the subject for a week now, all you are doing is pulling a scab off a healing wound.

 

 

and usually, a "humble opinion" is a few sentences...not a book

[gtipower]

Too bad this hadn't been posted when it was relevant.

 

Since no one had been talking about the subject for a week now, all you are doing is pulling a scab off a healing wound.

 

 

and usually, a "humble opinion" is a few sentences...not a book

 

You are probably right. I apologize, I'm just tired of the bashing and finger pointing on here. This great club is about learning and sharing, not talking about whether stores like each other and what the other can rat out about another.

 

I won't mind if the mods edited or closed or delete this thread to alleviate any other future problems. Thanks.

[lhcorals]

With all do respect i have a couple things to say. First of all this thing has died down. I dont think you understand what was trying to be said. Like this.

 

#1 "We do not stock Tropic Marin but if you prepay and order by monday we will sell at list pricing."

UH OH. They don't have it!!! This is ethically unacceptable!!!

 

The key word in what F&F stated was pre order. Not come to the store and see this coral that is not there.

 

#2 Besides, did anyone read that reef magazine article about how our hobby in a way is saving the reefs by taking pieces from the wild? Since the world's reefs are not exactly in great shape due to environmental factors, if we do our job to grow them out in our tanks, we hobbists could end up preserving certain species and might be supplying the reefs in the distant future. Pretty interesting POV. If we all only raised aquacultured corals, we might end up with the Great Barrier ORA Reef, full of Red Planets and Birds of Paradise corals, in the 23rd century lol.

 

I agree with this. The problem being, Getting a coral colony in and immediately cutting them up without time to adjust to aquarium conditions is not proper way to preserve them. Also not giving the frags time to heal. This subject was not brought about by F&F by the way. Yes it was in the topic discussion, posted by another member ( ME ). I feel i have a right to give my views on the subject even though i got off the point F&F was trying to make everyone aware of.

 

On that note i think F&F was in the right to post this in their own forum. They were just trying to make us aware of what was going on with factual evidence.

[mrcoral.com]

Well said gtipower. I couldn't of said this any better.

 

My biggest issue with that Post that Sean made was he did not state all the facts.

 

After reading Sean Post it seem like I pre-sold item all the time. Right? We have never done that before the biggest snow storm in Dec of all time.

 

The weekend before X-Mas not to have a sale in the store is a concern for a small business. So we did a Pre-Sale everyone was told of course.

 

Freshly cut Frags? Another issue. Do we cut Frags of course!!! 80% of all our frags healed and Encrusted!! At some point you have to cut and they are fresh. What we find funny is it sounds like all 2000 frags we have in the store was just cut last night. "Come on man" Let's all think about this. If something was just cutnin the store we do not put a tag on it right away. Why do we do this? Just to see if they make it threw the cut. After a few days and they are happy we label them. Again 80% of all corals are healed over just come on in a check it out.

 

 

How about the Farm? Nothing said? Any investing by Sean into a full scale Farm? The answer is No. But guess what I really don't care what Sean does it not a concern for me. Please just run your business and let me run mine. Stop attacking me!!!

 

Sorry guys for this post but I could not defend myself on his post.

 

Thanks

 

Sonny

[gtipower]

With all do respect i have a couple things to say. First of all this thing has died down. I dont think you understand what was trying to be said. Like this.

 

#1 "We do not stock Tropic Marin but if you prepay and order by monday we will sell at list pricing."

UH OH. They don't have it!!! This is ethically unacceptable!!!

 

The key word in what F&F stated was pre order. Not come to the store and see this coral that is not there.

 

#2 Besides, did anyone read that reef magazine article about how our hobby in a way is saving the reefs by taking pieces from the wild? Since the world's reefs are not exactly in great shape due to environmental factors, if we do our job to grow them out in our tanks, we hobbists could end up preserving certain species and might be supplying the reefs in the distant future. Pretty interesting POV. If we all only raised aquacultured corals, we might end up with the Great Barrier ORA Reef, full of Red Planets and Birds of Paradise corals, in the 23rd century lol.

 

I agree with this. The problem being, Getting a coral colony in and immediately cutting them up without time to adjust to aquarium conditions is not proper way to preserve them. Also not giving the frags time to heal. This subject was not brought about by F&F by the way. Yes it was in the topic discussion, posted by another member ( ME ). I feel i have a right to give my views on the subject even though i got off the point F&F was trying to make everyone aware of.

 

On that note i think F&F was in the right to post this in their own forum. They were just trying to make us aware of what was going on with factual evidence.

 

Hey, I COMPLETELY respect your opinion and have no problem if we do disagree. And no I don't take your disagreement personal or as an attack on me. I am fully willing to be friends with someone even if we have differing views.

 

Yeh F and F did state it was a preorder. Which is great, and I have no problem with that. I was merely pointing out preorder/sales happen all the time everywhere. And MrC did not say "come in the store and look at it." He said 1st to call with a credit card gets it. He knew nobody was going to drive in the blizzard to see the coral. He just reached out and allow some home shopping that would arrive soon. Now if he didn't get the product and kept people's money, that is wrong. But no complaints about that. So it is irrelevant whether he would or wouldn't get it. I personally always call a store, any store, if they have a specific product in stock to save myself any future anguish.

 

And I agree, stores should maybe give the coral some time to adjust to aquarium conditions before any fragging. But that is the observer's judgment when the coral is prepared to be fragged. I'm sure if MrC's corals kept dying after being fragged, he would stop and adjust because he would keep losing money. As far as not giving frags time to heal, as long as we the customers don't buy it, it IS healing and adjusting to aquarium conditions in MrC's tanks. We have ourselves to blame for jumping the gun and wanting it. MrC does post "hey look, new shipment." Not hey we had these for 4 weeks but really just got them Monday. You could also blame the wholesellers for not holding the coral longer as well either I guess. But in the end, if it ends up in your tank and dies due to fragging conditions or too quick of a turnaround time, then that was your judgment call.

 

True, maybe F and F did not say it verbatim, but mentions of "when you just move volumes of corals, by chopping them up and selling frags" can only be alluded to this. And yes they can post what they want to on their forum, I just don't know if it helps their business to perpetuate this schism.

 

Maybe we should add a forum called "Vendor Gossip" or "Vendor TMZ" instead lol

 

Again, I value your opinion and thank you for replying in a polite and mature manner.

Edited December 27, 2009 by gtipower

[flowerseller]

Maybe we should add a forum called "Vendor Gossip" or "Vendor TMZ" instead lol

 

lol

 

My personal take and not that of the WAMAS BOD.

Since the vendors really don't know "exactly" what or how the other vendors are actually doing it , we kind of have it already.

[lanman]

Yawn...

[basser9]

To me the faster you cut up a colony the better the small frags survive way better then kepping the small colony together.

Mr corals frags have never died in my tank so he must be doing something right.

[F&Fmgr]

Yawn...

 

+100

[txaggies07]

At least up in DC you have vendors who seem to actually care about the hobby. In houston, I can not find one LFS that I like. I have not found any that quarantine at all. They do not support the hobby like MrCoral, F&F, and BRK do. They are just there to sell fish. Be thankful for the LFS you have up there.

[mrcoral.com]

We miss you at the store. I hope all is well in Texas.