What's up with IO salt?

[chideloh]

I am hearing something about IO salt being bad? Is that true?

 

Does anybody have any info on it?

 

David

[Guest reefnut]

Here is the article that started all of the fuss:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-03/rs/feature/index.htm

 

The interesting thing is that the "good stuff" Crystal Seas Marinemix - Bioassay Formula.  Is cheaper than IO.

 

Bill

[Coral Hind]

"of all the things that Dr Ron is an expert in... chemistry does not seem to be one of them"-Calfo

 

IO has had a great track record with me.  I don't see me changing anytime soon.

 

Here is a great post from Anthony Calfo that sums it up for me.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=161108

[dgasmd]

I actually read the article that is linked above recent;y and laught to no end. That is the most scientificly flawed artocle I ahve seen in a long time. The conclusion are none if you asked me. So, for the time being and until a better answer is given to the question of which salt is best, I will continue to use what I currently use. IO. ???

[chideloh]

Thanks everyone for your help.

 

I am not qualified to say anything about the method he used to do the experiment but to me it seems to have SOME merit to it.

 

Maybe that's why some SPS suddenly have RTNs without any apprent reason after months or years of doing fine because of the build up of the "metals" or some other stuff that is toxic.

 

Well, we shall see.

 

Thanks again.

 

David

[michaelg]

David- I agree that the build up factor may be significant over time, but it  could just as likely be contributed from our RO/DI water and the 0.01% of stuff that makes it through- hard to tell in any real way, and how does this in any way explain tanks that have been run for a long time with no problems as described?  If it was coming from the salt, there should be a much higher incidence of "mysterious tank crash".    Ron has been strongly advocating his hypothesis on this being the cause of mysterious problems in aquaria, just as J Sprung attributes most unknown coral problems to unidentified bacterial pathogens.  I'm not convinced the bio-assay he did in the current study was really all that relavent either.  I have had researchers who worked next door for a few years who did sea urchin embryo studies, they used both IO and HW marinemix w/ bio-elements (a german salt, that is quite expensive).  Many sucessful breeders have used IO, it has been tried and proven for fish larval rearing, which says a lot more to me than this study.  Just some things to ponder.  Great discussion btw- I like having this sort of discourse with people I actually know.

[chideloh]

David- I agree that the build up factor may be significant over time, but it  could just as likely be contributed from our RO/DI water and the 0.01% of stuff that makes it through-

 

Well, the point is, if the stuff that gets through RO/DI can be harmful to the critters over time then the same can be said of the stuff that is in the salt. For instance, I look at the chart and see the amount of Aluminum that is in different salts in comparison to the NSW and IO has signaficant amount of it in it.

 

hard to tell in any real way, and how does this in any way explain tanks that have been run for a long time with no problems as described?  If it was coming from the salt, there should be a much higher incidence of "mysterious tank crash".    

 

I see plenty of RTNs on RC.

 

 I have had researchers who worked next door for a few years who did sea urchin embryo studies, they used both IO and HW marinemix w/ bio-elements (a german salt, that is quite expensive).  

 

Michael, can you elaborate on it more? Are they getting the same results with both salts? If these people are able to use IO and are getting same result as the HW marinemix, then that's enough evidence for me.

 

Many sucessful breeders have used IO, it has been tried and proven for fish larval rearing, which says a lot more to me than this study.  

 

This goes back to the question above. How "successful" are we talking about, Michael? Because the experiment shows that "some" can be grown in the fresh IO mix and the hobbist A had a lot more growing. So, IO is not complete wash out, it just doesn't perform as well as the top two.

 

Just some things to ponder.  Great discussion btw- I like having this sort of discourse with people I actually know.

 

Yes, it is some thing to ponder because I want to do everything I can to insure the survival of these critters and thrive in the environment I provide for it. And yes, these kinds of discussion is good for the hobby. It will help all of us in the long run.

 

David

[michaelg]

if the stuff that gets through RO/DI can be harmful to the critters over time then the same can be said of the stuff that is in the salt. For instance, I look at the chart and see the amount of Aluminum that is in different salts in comparison to the NSW and IO has signaficant amount of it in it.

 

I agree with you.  Part of the difficulty is knowing specifically what the critical levels of any of these metals are though through stringent toxicity testing on numerous samples of numerous species to draw a conclusion about what is "bad".  There is not enough of a database of this information at this time, though I fully agree that this is a start to ask this question.  What we also do not know is how different animals deal with metals.  To what degree are they just incorporated into skeletal material, thereby rendered harmless? or handled by other mechanisms.  Are larval urchin responses the same as vertabrate larval responses, and are these the same as the response for developed individuals?  While the urchins are easy to use for such a thing, are they a suitible species to look at WRT aquaria?  

 

Plenty of RTNs is nothing to draw any conclusions over- there are way too many possibilities as to the causes.  The majority of RTN occurs within 6 months of initial shipping, not after a coral has acclimated.  This could be due to something in the water, or to an overall inability of the coral to adapt to a captive environment from light, water motion, plankton, or stress/lack of oxygen especially during shipping, etc.

 

Michael, can you elaborate on it more? Are they getting the same results with both salts? If these people are able to use IO and are getting same result as the HW marinemix, then that's enough evidence for me.

 

Yes both salts to my knowledge were used interchangibly.  One thing to keep in mind here, as with Dr Ron's experiment, the length of exposure is relatively short term.  The researchers did an experiment,  used the animals, and then started over.  From an embryological developmental point of view, they didn't have a preference on what they used.  The conditions are different though- we go for a long term experiment in a sence (years) and what they are doing is on a week to month type time frame.

 

Measuring sucess here is very subjective, and frustrating to some extent.  Again way too many variables on husbandry to draw conclusions from what a couple of hobbiest report- this is the biggest difficulty in our hobby and one that in general makes progress very slow.

 

Another point I think we need to keep in mind here- is early larval stage development a good assay as to what is good or bad for our aquaria?  It is an extremely sensative assay to some extent, and meaningless in other regards.  

 

Yes, it is some thing to ponder because I want to do everything I can to insure the survival of these critters and thrive in the environment I provide for it. And yes, these kinds of discussion is good for the hobby. It will help all of us in the long run.

 

I couldn't agree more.  Though if you recall from some time ago, there was a company out in california that claimed their salt was heads above anything else....There has never been anyone to look at it though to my knowledge beyond their own website figures, and I have never seen it take hold in the hobby.  All of it takes quite a lot of thought, and a descision on our part as to what variables we are willing to experiment with and which ones are better left as a constant....  Our desire to provide the optimal environment is at all of our hearts, else we shouldn't be keeping the animals.

[chideloh]

Thanks Michael for your time discussing the issue.

 

Ron has been strongly advocating his hypothesis on this being the cause of mysterious problems in aquaria, just as J Sprung attributes most unknown coral problems to unidentified bacterial pathogens.

 

This is what is so frustrating about this hobby. Though we have learned a great deal about the sea critters there is so much we don't know yet.

 

Hopefully we can learn more as we go. I am willing to change salt if that will help the critters. It's a simple change I can do.

 

David

[michaelg]

Just so Bingman's article is in this thread for comparison

 

http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2....ult.asp

[chideloh]

Thanks for the article, Michael, but what does it all mean? You are a scientist, can you tell me what it all means?

 

They made a comparison but it doesn't say whether one is better than the other.

 

The thing that jumps out is the amount of metals that are in all the salts.

 

Thanks again, Michael.

 

David

[michaelg]

Ok I'll elaborate a little more on this topic-

To answer your first question- to a scientist, this is an interesting observation that suggests more study is worthwhile

 

There is a significant amount in the literature suggesting toxicity from a wide range of compounds, heavy metals included.  Again, we have no idea if there is any affect on mature corals (and there are very few researchers I would trust if the studies were done as most of them can't keep their controls alive to begin with).  

 

Is it going to hurt to have less of these compounds in our water? unlikely IMO.  

Might it eventually have adverse affects on some of the animals? Possibly.  

 

Bingman's study looked at multiple samples, the numbers IMO are believable.  The salts Ron specifically found good results with, however, are not included in this study.  

 

Now a few more comments- the source Ron listed, aquatic ecosystems has removed the salt from their online catalog, likely due to the flood of orders.  The link is also gone now from Ron's article, likely for the same reason.

 

The other salt that gave good results is one that I alluded to above, it can be found here-http://www.aquacraft.net/w0002.html

While I have not come across many people who have used it, I haven't heard any negatives from those who have (what I've read on the internet).

 

Now note, and this may or may not be significant.  The numbers used for Ron's study on metal composition in the latter 2 salts, came from the manufacturer (the S15 report came from aquacraft which is the manufacturer, though the website is a bit deceiving on this matter).   If metals are responsible for the larval mortality, then the low amounts claimed by these 2 companies is supported by ron's study.

 

On another note, and a technical one that may have had dramatic affects on the study, was the way in which Ron did the study.  The urchins were in NSW, induced to spawn by KCl injection (a common proceedure for this species), and the gametes were then transferred to the different salt mixes.  These were fresh batches of salt, and had only been mixed for 1hr.  Now there is a lot that has been written in the past about the importance of mixing artifical salt mixes for a long time and aging it.  Just a variable that may have affected the results- it is possible that the properties of the different salt mixes are different immediately upon mixing, which is quite possible.

 

Now a question I have is how do these other 2 people produce their salt mixes to such a high purity and have affordable salts?  Unless it is NSW that has had the water removed. This is where a lot of my skeptisism lies.  I also have reservations of lot to lot consistency of these other brands, that are real small scale compared to Instant Ocean.  Is it justified, I don't know.  Sometimes smaller is better.

[michaelg]

More information should be available in the not too distant future.  See here on how you can help.

 

http://reefcentral.com/forums....rinemix

[Guest andrejka]

Here is the correct link:

Salt Analysis Project

And two ways to donate:

By PayPal through Reefcentral

By a credit card directly to Inland Reef Aquaria

[Aquariareview]

What all the hassle about salt. I thought I was suppose to use mortons

[michaelg]

Are your xenia pumping overtime?

[michaelg]

Here is a link to Eric B's comments on it if you havent seen it yet.

 

http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=84