Structural support for a 210G system

[bshriver]

I am in the process of trying to setup a 210 G system with everything under the tank stand in my living room. The living room is over a finished basement with a drop ceiling. I have either 2x10 or 2x12 joists (I need to measure when I get home) at 16 inch centers. The center living room wall is over the main steel I beam of the house. There will probably be about 80 gallons of additional water under the tank. I think 3000 pounds is a good working estimate for the final weight of the system and the tank's footprint is 6x2. The living room sub floor is 3/4 OSB with 3/4 solid Brazilian cherry hardwood running perpendicular to the joists.

 

I have two possible locations - 1) against the long weight bearing wall of the room which is almost directly over the steel I beam and perpendicular to the joists 2) against the far end of the room which is the outside wall of the house and parallel to the joists of the house - it will look better against this wall, but may require more reinforcement for the floor here.

 

What have people done out there to run big systems on their main floor? Does anyone know of a decent structural engineer for evaluating the house and recommending solutions.? I live near Sykesville MD.

 

Running extra joists will probably be relatively easy - but may be of little help for installing it against the outside wall. If it requires extra support poles to be installed in the basement, it may be a deal killer.

 

Thanks.

 

Brett

[extreme_tooth_decay]

Hi Brett,

 

I'll give you my opinion, but bear in mind I am no structural engineer!

 

I have a house layout very similar to yours, and a room very similar to yours. My tank is half the size of yours (125) and no sump (I put the sump in the basement so I could make it bigger and reduce the weight on the main floor).

 

 

What I did:

 

I put the tank up against the main wall, almost on top of the I-beam, perpendicular to the joists. I also doubled up every joist under the tank (5 I think). I know that is overkill, but it didn't take much time, and the peace of mind it gives me is well worth it.

 

 

About your situation:

 

I wouldn't consider putting a tank that size parallel to the joists without extreme reinforcement.

 

I wouldn't put that tank perpendicular to the joists without substantial reinforcement

 

Read This Article

 

Like everything in this hobby, I take the information there with a grain of salt, but it does say:

 

"Aquariums up to 55 gallons can be placed almost anywhere without much worry at all. Many tanks larger than 55 gallons and no more than 125 gallons will be okay, if they are placed in a good structural location and your floor framing is free from significant defects. For example, a 125 gallon tank, on a wooden stand, placed perpendicular to the joists up against a bearing wall, will often be okay without any additional structural support. If your tank is over 125 gallons, then it is likely that you should consider adding supports under your wood framed floor. Please realize that these are generalities that may or may not apply to your particular situation."

 

Since your tank is way over 125...my advice would be to not even consider putting it parallel to the joists...and definitely reinforce your framing (I don't know how much) to put it perpendicular to them.

 

good luck,

tim

[bshriver]

Tim,

 

Thanks for the info! I have read that article and a couple of others. They all basically point to get a good structural engineer to evaluate the situation for a tank my size. That is also inline with what I have read in other books that I own - for anything over 125 gallons, start evaluating the strength of the structure.

 

I was not too worried about running the tank perpendicular to the joists right over the I beam since this is the strongest part of the floor in the house, and re-inforcing the floor in that direction is a pretty straight forward task. Then I saw how the tank looked empty in that position and it is just too big. I may try the corner of the room along the same wall - the floor is even stronger there and it may not look as out of place. Or I may move it to the basement and forget about one on the main floor all together

 

Sounds like your tank is well supported - overkill with know worries

 

Hopefully someone out there knows a decent structural engineer that they have used in the past. Picking a contractor out of the phone book is pretty hit or miss (mostly miss) in my experience so I'd rather start with a reference. I am an eleictral and computer engineer by training and trade, so I'll study up on structural engineering in the mean time and see if I can figure out the real safe static load of my house floor.

 

Brett

[Highland Reefer]

You could put a couple of beams under the area & support the beams with posts down to the concrete floor, if this does not interfere with usage of your basement. Some may advice to put the support posts on their own footings. Just an idea.

 

Structural engineers are going to run you at least $400. I use this structural engineer for my customers. Robert Wixson: (Structural Engineer) (301) 565-0543.

 

Installation costs are going to depend on any electrical, heat ducts, water pipes, etc that may be in the way plus it sounds like the drop ceiling will have to be R&R, unless you are going to do it yourself.

 

I would think that doubling up on the joists & installing some bridging would be adequate. You could even install another joist between the other joists for extra measure. But, I am not a structural engineer, just a dumb contractor. The bridging would help disperse the weight over several joists evenly. My two cents for what it's worth. I've seen some tanks your size and larger which were placed parallel with the joists & no beefing what so ever and there was no signs of sagging several years later.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Highland Reefer

[bshriver]

You could put a couple of beams under the area & support the beams with posts down to the concrete floor, if this does not interfere with usage of your basement. Some may advice to put the support posts on their own footings. Just an idea.

 

Structural engineers are going to run you at least $400. I use this structural engineer for my customers. Robert Wixson: (Structural Engineer) (301) 565-0543.

 

Installation costs are going to depend on any electrical, heat ducts, water pipes, etc that may be in the way plus it sounds like the drop ceiling will have to be R&R, unless you are going to do it yourself.

 

I would think that doubling up on the joists & installing some bridging would be adequate. You could even install another joist between the other joists for extra measure. But, I am not a structural engineer, just a dumb contractor. The bridging would help disperse the weight over several joists evenly. My two cents for what it's worth. I've seen some tanks your size and larger which were placed parallel with the joists & no beefing what so ever and there was no signs of sagging.

Thanks for the feedback. $400 is worth it if they know what they are doing - better then losing a kid who is watching TV in the basement and a reef tank falls on him

 

That's a good point about the drop ceiling. There is no way to get a 16 foot joist in place without getting it out of the wayfirst. There are minimal/no other duct/electrical issues in my case though.

 

More posts in the basement would probably be a deal killer as the area beneath the tank is used for TV, etc.

 

That is good to know that other have done parallel. The tank would pick up two joists that way and bridging could pick up the one over the sill on thefoundation (I think). I was thinking I could add a third joist in the middle as well.

 

I will probably call you structural engineer reference. Thanks!

 

Too bad I can't do your first idea - that would work no questions asked and I could use the area between the beams in the basement as a sump area.

 

Brett

Edited August 25, 2008 by bshriver

[Highland Reefer]

What I have seen other contractors do to support jacuzzi tubs 6'x6'x3' on upper levels is to double up on the joists and add bridging. Everything has to go into the ceiling. Just thought about this.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Highland Reefer

[bshriver]

What I have seen other contractors do to support jacuzzi tubs 6'x6'x3' on upper levels is to double up on the joists and add bridging. Everything has to go into the ceiling. Just thought about this.

It seems like that should be enough - or even trippling joists if need be. Of course a jacuzzi is usually empty so it is probably less stressful on the floor over time.

[bshriver]

So I measured the joists and they are 2x10s on 16 inch centers. They look like #2 grade pine to me.

 

When I investigated the joists right under where the tank would be parallel to the joists, it is already a triple joist bridged to the outside joist that sits on the sill. It may already be fine as a 6x10 joist joined to one 16 inches away that is resting on the foundation cap, has to support a lot of weight. I'll see what the structural engineer says. I am betting that the only thing that needs to be done is adding more bridging to help destribute the weight more evenly.

Edited August 25, 2008 by bshriver

[CHUBAKAH]

So I measured the joists and they are 2x10s on 16 inch centers. They look like #2 grade pine to me.

 

When I investigated the joists right under where the tank would be parallel to the joists, it is already a triple joist bridged to the outside joist that sits on the sill. It may already be fine as a 6x10 joist joined to one 16 inches away that is resting on the foundation cap, has to support a lot of weight. I'll see what the structural engineer says. I am betting that the only thing that needs to be done is adding more bridging to help destribute the weight more evenly.

If I'm a betting man, I bet he says your fine without doing a thing. If your sitting that close to a load bearing wall you should be fine. Are you still planning to put it where you showed me where the desks are now?

 

Mark

 

PS what up Brett

[bshriver]

If I'm a betting man, I bet he says your fine without doing a thing. If your sitting that close to a load bearing wall you should be fine. Are you still planning to put it where you showed me where the desks are now?

 

Mark

 

PS what up Brett

Triple joisted, 16 inches from the foundation wall and bridged over should be pretty good. I am actually probably putting it against the short wall at the end of that room - along the end of the house.

 

Things are going well - how are your frags doing?

[dtfleming]

Should be a great build.

[Highland Reefer]

Keep us posted on what the Structural Engineer says. Curiosity kills the cat.

[CHUBAKAH]

 

 

Things are going well - how are your frags doing?

TBH, your SPS frags are about the only ones I have kept alive. I lost that one aqua blue frag you gave me you got from somebody, but other than that, they all look good.

 

Let me know when your ready to get rid of some more.

[bshriver]

TBH, your SPS frags are about the only ones I have kept alive. I lost that one aqua blue frag you gave me you got from somebody, but other than that, they all look good.

 

Let me know when your ready to get rid of some more.

Cool. My piece of that aqua blue stag is still ok. It will be a while before I can frag it though. The frag you got broke off when I mounted mine. You can have another piece in 6 months or so if mine does well.

 

I have plenty of other SPS that are ready to frag I think. PM or email me and we can see if I have anything that you would want.

 

Keep us posted on what the Structural Engineer says. Curiosity kills the cat.

Sure thing. I talked to one on the phone today and described the situation. He can't come visit for two weeks due to a vacation for a final assessment though.

 

Over the phone, he seemed to think that I would need to add at least one LVL joist/beam under the tank to place it parallel to the joists, but he did not think a new support post would be necessary. This is even with a triple 2x10 joist directly under the tank that is blocked to the joist that rest on the foundation. I think his major concern was not that the floor would not support the tank, but rather that the floor would warp some over time.

 

I'll have a better assessment when he actually sees the site in a couple of weeks. Until then, I think I can start positioning the tank and working on the plumbing as it sounds like it will be possible to easily get the floor strong enough.

 

He said that LVL joist/beams were much stronger than the 2x10 or 2x12 framing lumber.

 

In the end, I'll have at least 5 beams under the tank. That should support a lot of weight!

[Highland Reefer]

Wilson's Lumber, off of Route 32 near the intersection of 70, carries the LVL beams. Their phone number is (410) 442-2400. These beams are so hard, you practically have to drill first to get nails in them. You'll probably be able to put an aquairum twice the size you have after installing them.

 

[bshriver]

Wilson's Lumber, off of Route 32 near the intersection of 70, carries the LVL beams. Their phone number is (410) 442-2400. These beams are so hard, you practically have to drill first to get nails in them. You'll probably be able to put an aquairum twice the size you have after installing them.

 

Thanks! I'll call them as well as 84 lumber. I did not know they were there. That is only 20 min from me.

 

The floor that it is going on is Brazilian cherry. It is super hard too. You can't dent its face with a hammer. It makes rock maple look like butter.

[dtfleming]

LMK when you need help moving that tank. I just started plumbing a new tank today.

[bshriver]

LMK when you need help moving that tank. I just started plumbing a new tank today.

Thanks for the offer! I actually got it moved into the LR already with my kids - lots of physics and minimal lifting

 

What type of tank are you starting?

[sen5241b]

I am in the process of trying to setup a 210 G system with everything under the tank stand in my living room. The living room is over a finished basement with a drop ceiling. I have either 2x10 or 2x12 joists (I need to measure when I get home) at 16 inch centers. The center living room wall is over the main steel I beam of the house. There will probably be about 80 gallons of additional water under the tank. I think 3000 pounds is a good working estimate for the final weight of the system and the tank's footprint is 6x2. The living room sub floor is 3/4 OSB with 3/4 solid Brazilian cherry hardwood running perpendicular to the joists.

 

I have two possible locations - 1) against the long weight bearing wall of the room which is almost directly over the steel I beam and perpendicular to the joists 2) against the far end of the room which is the outside wall of the house and parallel to the joists of the house - it will look better against this wall, but may require more reinforcement for the floor here.

 

What have people done out there to run big systems on their main floor? Does anyone know of a decent structural engineer for evaluating the house and recommending solutions.? I live near Sykesville MD.

 

Running extra joists will probably be relatively easy - but may be of little help for installing it against the outside wall. If it requires extra support poles to be installed in the basement, it may be a deal killer.

 

Thanks.

 

Brett

 

210G x 8.34 = 1751.4 water

370 LR

80G x 8.34 667.2 sump/reservoir

200 equipment (?)

====================

2988 pounds

 

 

Do you know much the tank itself weighs?

[bshriver]

210G x 8.34 = 1751.4 water

370 LR

80G x 8.34 667.2 sump/reservoir

200 equipment (?)

====================

2988 pounds

Do you know much the tank itself weighs?

 

I believe it is in the 600 pound range with the stand. It felt that heavy

 

I actually told the structural engineer to use 3500 pounds as a starting point. I expect he will design it for 7000 pounds to include a 2x safety factor.

 

Couple of notes - 370 pounds of LR and sand will displace quite a bit of the water and I was only planning on 250 to 300 of LR tops.

Edited August 29, 2008 by bshriver

[bshriver]

Update. I had a structural engineer come out. He said I should sister the beam undert the tank with 3 LVL joists to be safe. When placing the tank parallel with the floor joists, he only recommended 1000 pounds with no additional support. His fear was mainly floor sag over time. I think structural estimates with wood framing have a 2 to 4 x safety factor built in though due to the variance in strength between different pieces of wood. LVL is much more consistent. We used 4000 pounds as the expected load. I could also use a single post on the beam directly under the tank, but that would intefere with living space in the basement.

 

If I would have put the tank against the load bearing wall, perpindicular to the joists, it would not need any additional support.