Red algae/cyano

[FishWife]

We have red algae that's taking over our frag tank and beginning to infest our display tank. Before I dose, anyone have anything to say against Blue Life RedSlime Control (as seen here)?

[jamal]

i used it in my 180 and it worked in one treatment. just make sure you turn your skimmer and carbon off.

[FishWife]

i used it in my 180 and it worked in one treatment. just make sure you turn your skimmer and carbon off.

 

For how long? And, do I need some kind of debris bag to catch dead algae, or does it just dissolve?

Edited March 15, 2008 by FishWife

[jamal]

it should say it on there but i think it is a week or two.

[edkruzel]

That's treating the symptom not the problem; cyno needs two things to grow, excess phosphate and the proper spectrum of light (500-700nm). Discover what your doing to add phosphate such as improper foods, excess food or through the water used for evaporation. You may not get a high reading for phosphates but I guarantee they're there. There are 2 types of phosphates and only one can be detected with a common LFS purchased test kit, plus as with any nutrient and excess nuisance growth the problem growth is absorbing the nutrient at a phenomenal rate.

 

Quick fixes like RedSlime Control kill most of the cynobacteria, but when it dies it drops a ton of phosphate back into the water column so if used, (just days after the treatment) you need to run massive amounts of carbon, a huge water change and your skimmer running at its peak performance or any remaining cynobacteria will come back with a vengeance. Another downfall to using this chemical as a quick fix is that it will decimate most of your fauna population.

[Highland Reefer]

I found this link helpful in Identifing the algae and providing some ideas for control. They have lots of other links: http://www.aquatouch.com/algae.htm

 

[FishWife]

That's treating the symptom not the problem; cyno needs two things to grow, excess phosphate and the proper spectrum of light (500-700nm). Discover what your doing to add phosphate such as improper foods, excess food or through the water used for evaporation. You may not get a high reading for phosphates but I guarantee they're there. There are 2 types of phosphates and only one can be detected with a common LFS purchased test kit, plus as with any nutrient and excess nuisance growth the problem growth is absorbing the nutrient at a phenomenal rate.

 

Quick fixes like RedSlime Control kill most of the cynobacteria, but when it dies it drops a ton of phosphate back into the water column so if used, (just days after the treatment) you need to run massive amounts of carbon, a huge water change and your skimmer running at its peak performance or any remaining cynobacteria will come back with a vengeance. Another downfall to using this chemical as a quick fix is that it will decimate most of your fauna population.

 

So... where do phosphates come from? We have three fish in a 300g system (counting sump, fuge, display, and frag tank) on one system. ALL I feed it (daily) is a small pinch of this stuff... Marine Spectrum variety for Marine fish.

Edited March 16, 2008 by FishWife

[Highland Reefer]

The first thing you need to do is get a phosphate test kit and see if your levels are high. Phosphates should be undetectable with the test kits out there. If it is high, then the next question is are you RO water or tap water. Tap water is one of the primary sources of Phosphates. High phosphate levels mixed with high nitrate levels and low ph can be a bad combination as far as algae problems.

[FishWife]

The first thing you need to do is get a phosphate test kit and see if your levels are high. Phosphates should be undetectable with the test kits out there. If it is high, then the next question is are you RO water or tap water. Tap water is one of the primary sources of Phosphates. High phosphate levels mixed with high nitrate levels and low ph can be a bad combination as far as algae problems.

 

We have ALWAYS used RO/DI water. I guess we'll try to get a test, but if they're undetectable... what's the point?

Edited March 16, 2008 by FishWife

[Highland Reefer]

As long as your water parameters are good, then the questions is what are you fighting cyano bacteria or red algae? The control measures can be different. You have people offering advise to take care of Cyano bacteria and yet you say that you have red algae. The first step is IDing your enemy here.

Edited March 16, 2008 by Highland Reefer

[lancer99]

Mostly from food.

 

Hobbyist test kits only detect inorganic phosphate (orthophospate), whereas most phosphate in reef tanks is of the organic variety, so they are essentially useless.....i.e. a reading of 0 phosphates doesn't really mean anything.

 

Eric Borneman has published a couple of articles about cyano, and his point was basically that it's just something tanks go through as they adjust to changing conditions (especially new tanks), and that it's best to just wait it out.

 

IME that's true...I got a major red slime outbreak in my 75G, and two months later, with no siphoning it out or making other changes, it's gone.

 

JME,

-R

[Rascal]

We have ALWAYS used RO/DI water. I guess we'll try to get a test, but if they're undetectable... what's the point?

 

I don't think there is one. Don't bother with test kits for phosphate IMO, just continue to do everything that you know will maintain optimal water quality with low nitrate and phosphate and wait it out. This tank is not that old. Algae blooms like this are normal. It doesn't hurt to make sure your RO/DI is working as it should (a TDS meter is the only way to know), nor would it hurt to run some GFO if you aren't already. But probably your best weapon is the hardest to deploy . . . patience. You have a well designed system with very good equipment. Keep up with water changes and syphon as much of the cyano / red algae / whatever out when you do. It will pass in a month or so and be a distant memory.

 

Eric Borneman has published a couple of articles about cyano, and his point was basically that it's just something tanks go through as they adjust to changing conditions (especially new tanks), and that it's best to just wait it out.

 

IME that's true...I got a major red slime outbreak in my 75G, and two months later, with no siphoning it out or making other changes, it's gone.

 

JME,

-R

 

IME as well. Hold off on the chemical cure.

[FishWife]

I REALLY appreciate all this chat. Let me just clarify a few things, so I can get the best out of all you guys' expertise.

 

1. I don't know what to call it. It's not pure red slime, i.e. cyano. It's tufted. But, it's not like a christmas tree shap either (a la the article linked by Highland above--many thanks!). It's was easy to siphon out in big chunks the other night, so I thought it was cyano. It had lots of air bubbles in it. But, after siphoning out on Monday night in order to house our new anemone, it's ba-a-a-ck, and it's a different shape: now more like hair algae, but still red. It now attaches to the bottom of the frag tank, the sides, and the frag stand.

 

Here's are some older pictures of the frag tank, before this invasion:

 

 

I'm pretty sure it's a 45g: 4' X 1' X 15" or so? Haven't measured.

 

We're running T-5's: 6 bulb mixed array for about 9 hours/day.

 

Until Monday night, flow was low. Now we have a good, strong powerhead going in there, but as I said, it seems to have come back stronger and more "plant like" than cyano is.

 

The water has been coming from our total system of 300g.

 

We did notice that this algae/cyano or whatever has made it to the display tank thru the system, but it doesn't seem resident in the sump or deep sand bed (older pic).

 

Hmmm. No light down in there. However, there is some red algae in the refugium, where the lights are on all night.

 

We've not been running carbon since this system came online, but we have done some water changes. Tomorrow, we'll do some nitrate tests and I'll post, although with all the live rock in the tank and sump, plus a live sand bed and 'fuge, I'll be shocked if there's anything there.

 

THANKS for the encouragement; I'm MORE than happy to wait it out. Patience isn't that hard once you get used to it! I just don't want it to take over through out inactivity.

 

I don't think there is one. Don't bother with test kits for phosphate IMO, just continue to do everything that you know will maintain optimal water quality with low nitrate and phosphate and wait it out. This tank is not that old. Algae blooms like this are normal. It doesn't hurt to make sure your RO/DI is working as it should (a TDS meter is the only way to know), nor would it hurt to run some GFO if you aren't already. But probably your best weapon is the hardest to deploy . . . patience. You have a well designed system with very good equipment. Keep up with water changes and syphon as much of the cyano / red algae / whatever out when you do. It will pass in a month or so and be a distant memory.

IME as well. Hold off on the chemical cure.

 

 

RIGHT! I bought Scott a TDS monitor which he hasn't had time to install. That could be the whole enchelada (sp?) right there. THANKS for the encouragement!

 

What's GFO?

Edited March 16, 2008 by FishWife

[Highland Reefer]

I don't know if you have snails in there, but if it is the red algae, than putting in the proper snails, hermits, etc will help alot.

 

 

 

I see green algae in your pictures. I can't see the red. I would go to your favorite LFS and tell them you need a clean up crew. It will help the gree algae anyway. As long as you are runnign RO water, I would not worry to much about the phosphates. Just make sure your nitrates are good.

Edited March 16, 2008 by Highland Reefer

[lancer99]

1. I don't know what to call it. It's not pure red slime, i.e. cyano. It's tufted. But, it's not like a christmas tree shape either (a la the article linked by Highland above--many thanks!). It's was easy to siphon out in big chunks the other night, so I thought it was cyano. It had lots of air bubbles in it. But, after siphoning out on Monday night in order to house our new anemone, it's ba-a-a-ck, and it's a different shape: now more like hair algae, but still red. It now attaches to the bottom of the frag tank, the sides, and the frag stand.

It it's like a red mat with bubbles, it's definitely cyano.

 

If it's like a tufted red mat, that probably just means you've missed the oxygen bubbles pulling the strands upwards, or they are just growing upwards to the light.

 

That is again in IME...

 

Turbos and fighting conchs love cyano, but that might be another band-aid

 

Cyano is such a @$%#&, but I would again recommend that you be patient...don't decrease feeding, and just wait it out.

 

-R

[treesprite]

FYI on Tap water in gaithersburg - I have tested it several times in the past for both phosphate and nitrate and it always has come up zero (I was using tap for a couple months, now using RODI).

 

I think sometimes tiny bits of stuff we don't notice comes on frags and rocks and what have you, and then those unnoticed things became quite noticable things in our tanks.

[ErikS]

A couple of articles on PO4 -

 

Dr. Randy's Article #1

 

Dr. Randy's Article #2

 

And the real "joy" of cyano is that it can bind nitrogen from the air = means its can be tough to get rid of with nutrient limits.

[Highland Reefer]

A couple of articles on PO4 -

 

Dr. Randy's Article #1

 

Dr. Randy's Article #2

 

And the real "joy" of cyano is that it can bind nitrogen from the air = means its can be tough to get rid of with nutrient limits.

 

Good links. When I first started up my reef I was not using ro/di water. My phosphate levels read high for my well water using the test kit. I was overun with bubble alage. After my tank went down, I bought a RO/DI unit. This time there were problems with hair algae, but not as bad. I bought a bunch of snails and they did a good job cleaning up after I removed as much by hand as I could, but never quite got rid of it. I then bought a foxface and he cleaned it up good. So as far as the hair algae goes, I believe in the combinatation of using everthing at your disposal. I have noticed that snail population has declined with the disappearance of the algae. I have never battled the cyano bacterial, but there is a lot of facts stating that it has to run it course, just like the hair algae. I would assume that using combinations of things like I stated above would provide the best answer. What that combination is I do not know for Cyano. FishWife does not seem to overfeed, so one can only assume that the phosphate levels are under control, unless they do show up on a test kit. I always test for phosphates in my routine. The better kits are expensive and more difficult to use. Just my two cents.

 

Edited March 16, 2008 by Highland Reefer

[FishWife]

I don't know if you have snails in there, but if it is the red algae, than putting in the proper snails, hermits, etc will help alot. I see green algae in your pictures. I can't see the red. I would go to your favorite LFS and tell them you need a clean up crew. It will help the green algae anyway. As long as you are running RO water, I would not worry to much about the phosphates. Just make sure your nitrates are good.

 

It's an old picture, hence no red algae showing on any of the pic's above. Here are our new ones from tonight:

 

#1: This is the left corner of the frag tank floor. See, the algae has developed quite long strands.

 

#2: A little to the right is the left side of the frag tank close up. Again, note: not slime; more like red coverage like normal algae with long strands.

 

#3: This is the same place, only turned the camera so you can see bubbles on upper shelf of frag tank:

Edited March 17, 2008 by FishWife

[treesprite]

a zero reading doesn't mean no phosphate - things eat it up as fast as it's there so a tank may be producing it just not enough to have more than can be consumed

[FishWife]

Bump: picture ID? Is the cyano or something else IYE?

[newfish]

The last picture that you posted was EXACTLY what I had about a month ago. It started to get on some of my corals and I thought it was starting to affect them.

 

I used Chemi-Clean and it cleaned it right up. It hasnt returned. YET!! The Chemi-Clean will wipe it out so it is worth a try. It will probably return if there is an Underlying problem.

I am pretty sure that mine was RO/DI.

I would probably test yours just to make sure that everything is ok.

But def. give it a try, it will wipe it out before it overruns everything.

 

Hope this helps.

Good Luck

Josh

[Rascal]

What you have looks like something my tank had at about the 3-5 month mark - same time as I was having lots of problems with HA. It was fuzzy and really liked to bind to the sand. Very fast spreading but relatively easy to remove. Same solutions as above (everything you can do to get nutrients low) but also just keep pulling it out as much as you can.

 

If it's the same stuff, it is ugly as heck and a real PITA, but it's not a tank killer. It will pass in time, and everything you did to achieve pristine water conditions in the meantime will pay dividends later, especially when it comes to SPS.

 

P.S.: GFO = granular ferris oxide - a phosphate remover.

[FishWife]

What you have looks like something my tank had at about the 3-5 month mark - same time as I was having lots of problems with HA. It was fuzzy and really liked to bind to the sand. Very fast spreading but relatively easy to remove. Same solutions as above (everything you can do to get nutrients low) but also just keep pulling it out as much as you can.

 

If it's the same stuff, it is ugly as heck and a real PITA, but it's not a tank killer. It will pass in time, and everything you did to achieve pristine water conditions in the meantime will pay dividends later, especially when it comes to SPS.

 

P.S.: GFO = granular ferris oxide - a phosphate remover.

 

Rascal et al: THANKS SO MUCH. We far prefer patience to chemicals, so will go that route. In terms of animals to live in the frag tank and help with this algae, what specific clean-up crew members do you recommend, and how many of each for a 45g frag tank such as ours?

[Highland Reefer]

I found this article most helpful:

 

Cyanobacteria is one of the nuisance growths that we may find in our tanks during the maturation process or even later. It can be one of the more frustrating problems we run into along with hair algae and diatom blooms. Understanding a little bit about it may help you to fight it in your tank.

 

What is Cyano?

 

Cyanobacteria are one of the oldest living microscopic organisms on earth. This organism has been in existence for more than 3.5 billion years. In fact, some articles describe it as a fossil. It is reputed to be the source of most organic material on earth and also the main source of oxygen. Cyanobacteria have many names including blue-green, red, purple, black and green slime algaes although they are not true algae. The color arises from a pigment in the cell which assists chlorophyll in photosynthesis. In fact, theories state that cyanobacteria may have been the source of choloroplasts, the structures that contain chlorophyll, in present plant cells. In nature, cyanobacteria can be found in water that is contaminated or is high in nitrates or phosphates.

 

Cyano Facts

 

1) Cyano is a large bacterium that is aerobic but can live under anaerobic conditions

2) It can tolerate extremes of temperature and salinity

3) Develops a protective mucous layer which gives rise to its 'slimy' nature.

4) can trap gas bubbles

5) can develop a modified cell called an akinete which stores carbohydrates under adverse conditions to aid in survival

6) can appear in multiple colors as listed above.

7) has an EXTREMELY FAST growth rate and can double every 20 minutes

 

How Do I Know I Have It?

 

The first sign that you may have cyano is seeing very fine bubbles adherent to your live rock or substrate followed by the development of a slimy layer which is frequently red, but may have any of the colors listed above. This layer is lighter than water (if not adherent to sand) and will float if lifted off the rock. It can spread rapidly and then can develop a filamentous-type appearance. Picture of cyanobacteria on substrate (on the right side):

 

 

Why Did I Get it In My Tank?

 

This type of bacteria thrives in water that is high in nitrates and phosphates. Unfortunately, it is usually a sign of excess nutrients in the water. But don't take that too personally as a sign of poor water husbandry. Frequently, it can start when there is an undiscovered death of an animal or organism that is in your tank. However, it is more commonly related to excess nutrients. Many claim that 'low flow' is a cause, however, there is no proven evidence that this is the case. So, possible causes include:

--overfeeding

--undiscovered death of a tank inhabitant

--excess phosphates (using water or topoff that is high in phosphates)

--poor water maintenance, ie, poor nutrient export

 

So, What Do I Do Now?

 

Eradicating cyanobacteria, once established, is a frustrating experience that requires patience and attention to tank maintenance. Here are some of the most common recommendations to aid you:

 

1) Change feeding habits, many recommend every other day feeding, to reduce nitrates

2) Although no strong evidence to support this, consider increasing water flow or redirecting flow to dead areas

3) Skim

4) Find the source of contamination and remove it

5) Increase the frequency of water changes

6) Siphon off the cyanobacteria to help reduce the load. You can use airline tubing attached to hard plastic tubing. You can also siphon the substrate to remove detritus. Use a turkey baster to float if off the LR and then suction it up with a turkey baster. Be forewarned..it grows back quickly

7) Change to RO/DI water if you are not using it to reduce phosphates

8 ) Consider adding a phosphate binding media insert. You can also consider adding polyfilter until clear (helps bind phosphates).

9) You can consider reducing lighting but this is often of little help

10) Add cyano-eating livestock. Some cyano eaters include Mexican Red Leg Hermit Crabs, Astrea snails and Trochus snails. Here is a photo of my astrea snail eating cyano:

 

 

There is no silver bullet. Using these techniques can take up to several weeks before the cyano regresses and patience cannot be overemphasized.

 

Desperate Times Require Desperate Measures

 

This is a controversial paragraph I am including but there is a growing number of people who are trying chemical methods to eradicate cyanobacteria with both excellent results and not so great. I don't put this here as a recommendation nor as a substitute for good water husbandry, but for completeness.

 

There are several water treatments available to treat cyanobacteria and many of these contain the antibiotic erythromycin. Erythromycin inhibits protein sythesis and is used generally against aerobic gram positive bacteria but does effect gram negatives as well (nitrosamonas and nitrobacter are gram negative). There are many risks entailed when you introduce an antibiotic to your tank:

 

1) Reducing/destroying the biologic filter

2) Creating a resistant strain of bacteria

3) Toxic effect on inverts and livestock

 

Brand names of products that treat cyanobacteria and contain antibiotics:

 

1) Maracyn (not Maracyn 2)

2) E.M. Tablets

3) Human erthromycin, EryC

 

Brand name of producsts with unknown active ingredients:

1) Chemi-Clean (?oxidizer)

2) Red Slime Away

 

Treatment includes:

1) Reducing the cyano load first by scooping or siphoning

2) Remove carbon/media from the tank's filtration system

3) Stop skimming for the initial 2 days, followed by a 25% water change

4) Treat for 5-7 days

5) Follow directions, generally 1 tablet (250mgs) per 10 gallons of water

 

The decision to use chemical methods is a personal one and may only be a temporary reprieve if water conditions are not improved. Some people may chose this path if inverts are being affected. It is not an excuse for clean water. Good luck and I hope this helped.