Chillers?

[FishWife]

We're working along on our new 175g bowfront. We hung the lights last night and are hoping for our first freshwater test of the new plumbing tomorrow night!

 

When we hung the lights (a 4 250w halide fixture that came with our tank) last night, we realized that things are going to heat up quickly in our tank (and that ballasts are LOUD and HEAVY monsters!). Question, therefore, for those of you who have them:

 

1. What are the pro's of chillers? (What brand is good?)

 

2. What are their con's?

 

3. How much power do they generally use? As much as our halide fixture, or more like a pump?

 

4. Can you plumb them using drilled returns, or do they need another pump to operate? While we're on this one, what kind of volume do you put through them?

[ctenophore]

Pros: good temperature control (with the right controller of course). Aqualogic is a good brand. CurrentUSA is a crappy one.

 

Cons: power hungry and expensive

 

They use a lot of power, an aqualogic 1/2hp uses about 9.5A at 115V. You probably only need a 1/3 hp though.

 

You can plumb it into your return line, back pressure is okay. They are just tube-in-shell heat exchangers, meaning a PVC shell (water in, water out) with a titanium tube inside (a coil) that the freon goes through.

 

Volume is per chiller mfg. rating. I would guess 600-1000 gph through a 1/3hp unit. You really can't have too much throughput, only too little.

[jamal]

pacific coast is a good brand and i have had no problems. i have a 1/4 hp chiller by them and my temp in the summer on a 180 is never over 82 however i would agree with the 1/3 hp chiller recommendation and the pros and cons. teco seachill is supposed to be good as well

[lletellier]

Since chillers are expensive you may want to consider doing something like copps does (see previous TOTM). He has a 180 with 3 400w mh bulbs and he runs the lighting on his separate frag tank that is plumbed into the same system on an alternate cycle. Basically one large body of water cools the other and the heat stays in check. My understanding is you have a large fish room so you may have the option to do something like this. Might have to pay to buy another large tank but you'll have to pay to buy a chiller and then the extra electric bill every month. Plus you will add to your total water volume which will help with stability.

[ctenophore]

Keep in mind, more open water in the house will lead to humidity issues if you are relying on evaporative cooling as suggested above. That water has to go somewhere, after all.

[lletellier]

Keep in mind, more open water in the house will lead to humidity issues if you are relying on evaporative cooling as suggested above. That water has to go somewhere, after all.

 

true true... everything is going to have its pros and cons

[FishWife]

Keep in mind, more open water in the house will lead to humidity issues if you are relying on evaporative cooling as suggested above. That water has to go somewhere, after all.

 

Well, that's why we considered installing a window AC unit in our fish room. Don't they take humidity out of the air while cooling?

[NRehman]

Window units do not work (well?) in cold weather. This would be a problem if cold outside and you are trying to cool your water.

[davidm]

I've had the same problems with my 180 gal and 3X 400W MHs - and am still having them. I solved the heating issue with a moderately sized fan and an open canopy, but that has created significant humidity problems in the entire house and attic.

 

To solve this problem I have decided to try covering my tank and sump with acrylic sheets which decrease the humidity (ie decrease evaporation) at night. During the day, these would also prevent both evaporation and heat loss (even worse than the original situation) so I'm planning to plumb tubing through these sheets on the tank to pick up the saturated air (humidity) and expel it from the house. I'm going to try using a HD wet/dry Vac to suck the air from between the tank and acrylic sheets and push this air out of the house. I know these wet/Dry Vacs make a lot of noise but i'm hoping I can tolerate that if I put it in the crawlspace or laundry room. Any comments on feasability?

 

David

[ctenophore]

I don't think wet/dry vacs are rated for continuous duty. Try a Fantech fan instead. I've used them before to do what you're suggesting and they haven't failed for over 3 years of 12/7/365 duty (on during day only)

 

Justin

 

I've had the same problems with my 180 gal and 3X 400W MHs - and am still having them. I solved the heating issue with a moderately sized fan and an open canopy, but that has created significant humidity problems in the entire house and attic.

 

To solve this problem I have decided to try covering my tank and sump with acrylic sheets which decrease the humidity (ie decrease evaporation) at night. During the day, these would also prevent both evaporation and heat loss (even worse than the original situation) so I'm planning to plumb tubing through these sheets on the tank to pick up the saturated air (humidity) and expel it from the house. I'm going to try using a HD wet/dry Vac to suck the air from between the tank and acrylic sheets and push this air out of the house. I know these wet/Dry Vacs make a lot of noise but i'm hoping I can tolerate that if I put it in the crawlspace or laundry room. Any comments on feasability?

 

David

[davidm]

any recommendations? I bought an in-line duct fan (don't remember brand) and although it can push air out, it doesn't have the suction I would need. I also would need it to have a suction that would work with smaller tubing (ie more like 1/2" tubing rather than 4" ducts). that's why i thought of a vacuum like the Wet/dry vacs. thanks for any help/suggestions - David

 

 

I don't think wet/dry vacs are rated for continuous duty. Try a Fantech fan instead. I've used them before to do what you're suggesting and they haven't failed for over 3 years of 12/7/365 duty (on during day only)

 

Justin

[Rascal]

any recommendations? I bought an in-line duct fan (don't remember brand) and although it can push air out, it doesn't have the suction I would need. I also would need it to have a suction that would work with smaller tubing (ie more like 1/2" tubing rather than 4" ducts). that's why i thought of a vacuum like the Wet/dry vacs. thanks for any help/suggestions - David

 

If you got your inline duct fan from HD, it is probably only rated to around 40 cfm (that's the only 4" model they sell IME) The fantechs Justin is refering to will do about 3-4x as much at least. They also cost more though.

 

A decent wet-dry vac will move about 250 cfm with a 5 hp motor, but that comes at a cost too -- namely in electricty usage. You are talking about several amps (3-6 ????) running all the time.

 

IMO you might as well bite the bullet and just get a good sized chiller. You will still need to vent the hot air out of the chiller, but you can rig up some duct work and use the 4" fan you already have to do that.

 

Another option would be to close off your canopy and then run one or two 4" exhaust lines to vent the hot humid air from above the tank to the outside.

 

If I were having the humidity issues you describe I would probably do both of these things. Excess humidity in the house can be a bad thing in the long term. Mold removal is expensive. Not removing it can be more so.

[davidm]

If you got your inline duct fan from HD, it is probably only rated to around 40 cfm (that's the only 4" model they sell IME) The fantechs Justin is refering to will do about 3-4x as much at least. They also cost more though.

Excess humidity in the house can be a bad thing in the long term. Mold removal is expensive. Not removing it can be more so.

 

I bought a model from McMaster Carr (19135K92) that pushes 148 cfm. However it has poor suction, which is what I need if I go with my original plan. I am hoping I won't need to run the Wet/Dry continuously, maybe just 10 minutes every hr or so, to remove the saturated air and permit evaporation if I need it for heat loss during the summer. I won't need to run it during the winter (except when it's 70 degrees in Jan!), as I won't need the evaporation for cooling, and the acrylic sheets during the winter should reduce the need for heating. I also agree, though, that I might ultimately need to bite the bullet on the chiller, and the high house humidity is causing my wife to freak out (rightly so) but, knock on wood, no signs of mold yet in the house or attic. thanks for the help and suggestions, keep em coming - David

[FishWife]

I bought a model from McMaster Carr (19135K92) that pushes 148 cfm. However it has poor suction, which is what I need if I go with my original plan. I am hoping I won't need to run the Wet/Dry continuously, maybe just 10 minutes every hr or so, to remove the saturated air and permit evaporation if I need it for heat loss during the summer. I won't need to run it during the winter (except when it's 70 degrees in Jan!), as I won't need the evaporation for cooling, and the acrylic sheets during the winter should reduce the need for heating. I also agree, though, that I might ultimately need to bite the bullet on the chiller, and the high house humidity is causing my wife to freak out (rightly so) but, knock on wood, no signs of mold yet in the house or attic. thanks for the help and suggestions, keep em coming - David

 

Have you considered simply putting in an old fashioned dehumidifier near the tank? We're thinking that, in winter, that would solve our mud room problem. In the summer, we'd solve it through the air conditioner. Thoughts?

Edited January 8, 2008 by FishWife

[davidm]

Have you considered simply putting in an old fashioned dehumidifier near the tank? We're thinking that, in winter, that would solve our mud room problem. In the summer, we'd solve it through the air conditioner. Thoughts?

 

yes, I tried using a dehumidifier, but basically it wasn't enough. an earler post alluding to the problem getting exaggerated/inefficient once the extra humidity enters the entire space, in my case the entire house (not just room). The dehumidifier couldn't keep up, and it didn't last more than 6 months running 24/7. In the case of an enclosed room, it might be worth trying, but I think humidity would escape through the walls and ceiling (hence my problem in the attic) as well as getting taken up by the dehumidifier. Using a dehumidifier and air conditioner also doesn't work well in the fall and spring months when neither system is on for long enough to pull water out of the air. I was sorta driving myself crazy putting on the dehumidifier in the morning in March/April/May as well as Sept/Oct, heating up the house, only to need to turn on the AC in the afternoon when the temp outside hit above 75 and I needed to cool the tank and house- obviously this was very energy wasteful. I've come to realize, for me at least, evaporation and humidity is all about exposed surface area, from both the tank and sump- and that's what I'm trying to minimize.

[ctenophore]

You might try a reverse approach by pressurizing that gap (assuming your tops fit well enough) using a decent sized linear piston air pump and a larger exhaust tube than the input tube. Maybe try 3/8" input tube and some of that 1.5" blue ribbed vacuum hose (at HD/Lowes) as the exhaust. The linear piston pumps are very good on electricity. Just a wild thought, anyway.

 

You could also try a manifold to a Fantech fan. Rig up several 1.5" hoses to your canopy and join them to a 4" duct somewhere outside the canopy.

 

I think your best bet is just sealing up the canopy and putting the 4" vent on the back. The fantech should be able to create a suction even with several 10s of feet of duct.

 

Unfortunately the overall best solution is a chiller. Just one of those costs associated with halide-lit reeftanks :(

 

any recommendations? I bought an in-line duct fan (don't remember brand) and although it can push air out, it doesn't have the suction I would need. I also would need it to have a suction that would work with smaller tubing (ie more like 1/2" tubing rather than 4" ducts). that's why i thought of a vacuum like the Wet/dry vacs. thanks for any help/suggestions - David

[davidm]

Unfortunately the overall best solution is a chiller. Just one of those costs associated with halide-lit reeftanks :(

 

After agonizing over this all day (instead of working of course) I think I've come to that conclusion. I could putz around and spend $100-$150 on a wet/dry vac + costs associated with tubing and venting, and plan on replacing the wet/dry vac every yr or so, or just bite the bullet on a chiller. I think I'm going to try to convince the wife on the latter tonight. Then I could keep the acrylic lids on all the time and greatly minimize evaporation without sacrificing cooling. the bullet to bite is of course the price tag. I think either a 1/4 HP or 1/3 HP (better) would be appropriate for my 180 gal with 3X400W MH's + sump. right now I'm leanig towards a TradeWind 1/3 HP drop-in for $750 (ouch). Pacific Coast in-lines run $520 for the 1/4HP and $900 for the 1/2HP, and I think I might need the 1/3 HP.

Edited January 8, 2008 by davidm

[dandy7200]

Window units do not work (well?) in cold weather. This would be a problem if cold outside and you are trying to cool your water.

 

 

This can be solved with a case heater for less than $20.