PH fluctuates

[discretekarma]

I did the 2 part in the afternoon yesterday instead of the morning and the Ph didn't drop as low (7.1)overnight as it had been doing. I did do a manual test and the AC3 is accurate even at night. I am going to try to take the suggestion to split up the 2 part doses in to several smaller doses until I'm able to get a Kalk Stirrer.

Edited January 1, 2008 by discretekarma

[flowerseller]

I did the 2 part in the afternoon yesterday instead of the morning and the Ph didn't drop as low (7.1)overnight as it had been doing. I did do a manual test and the AC3 is accurate even at night. I am going to try to take the suggestion to split up the 2 part doses in to several smaller doses until I'm able to get a Kalk Stirrer.

Did you really notice a difference in pH fluctuation soon after you added 2 part?

 

We all agree that 8.2 > 6.9 is not only large but alarming and potentially harmful long term.

You are building up excess CO2 during the night.

 

Do you reduce current/circulation at night?

Do you stop skimming at night?

Sand? how deep?

Algae in main tank, including hair or macro

Where is the tank located in the house?

 

Try taking a powerhead and mounting it with the sole intention of disrupting the waters surface at night. This should be vigorous disruption, similar to boiling water.

[dandy7200]

Something is wrong here.

 

Mix up some fresh saltwater to 1.025 and test the ph.

Add some of your 2part to the fresh mixed water and then test the ph of that.

 

Also, do you and your family a favor and go get a carbon monoxide test/alarm and check it in your tank location, if your readings are correct I have a feeling that more than just your fish are in potential danger.

[Brian Ward]

tend to agree with Dan here. As I recall, Jamal battled a similar pH problem - until he cracked a window in his basement.

[discretekarma]

We rent out a basement appt and that is where our tank is. It's a finished basement.

 

At night we do not reduce any circulation and we do not turn off the skimmer. The only change is the lighting. The main lights go off and the fuge light goes on. There is macro algae in the fuge and a little algae on the glass of the main tank. The frag tank (connected in to the same system) has some hair algae. The sand is about 3".

 

We do have a Carbon Monoxide tester in the basement. It isn't directly above the tank but it's about 10 or 15 feet away.

 

I add the 2 part right near the Ph probe in my sump so it does jump quite a bit when I add it.

 

I relocated one of my Koralia 4's to point at the surface and looks much like boiling water now. I haven't had a chance to make and test fresh water yet today.

 

 

 

Did you really notice a difference in pH fluctuation soon after you added 2 part?

 

We all agree that 8.2 > 6.9 is not only large but alarming and potentially harmful long term.

You are building up excess CO2 during the night.

 

Do you reduce current/circulation at night?

Do you stop skimming at night?

Sand? how deep?

Algae in main tank, including hair or macro

Where is the tank located in the house?

 

Try taking a powerhead and mounting it with the sole intention of disrupting the waters surface at night. This should be vigorous disruption, similar to boiling water.

Edited January 2, 2008 by discretekarma

[discretekarma]

Would it help to have my frag tank light timed with the fuge light? That way I'd have my frag tank light and my fuge light on at night and my main tank on during the day. Should I try that?

[flowerseller]

Jamal battled a similar pH problem - until he cracked a window in his basement.

This is a typical issue that many of us experience during the summer with prolonged periods of windows shut and A/C on adding moist cool. Opening a window near an aquarium often gives some relief to build ups of CO2 in the house but also incourages some evaporation (more opportunity to add high pH kalk.

In the winter with windows closed, you are running heat which dries air and incourages more evap thus more kalk. With little surface aggitation you tend to have less gas exchange therefore less escape of built up CO2 in the aquarium system.

 

If you don't notice a change, you might consider moving the frag tank to the reverse cycle.

If still no change, like Dave suggested, you might have an intference issue as well.

 

If carbon monoxide, I's think your change would be much less in the afternoon and you might have an extra duty headache consistantly.

[Rascal]

Since you are having trouble maintaining Alk & Calc w/ just 2 part AND you are experiencing too much of a drop in PH at night, it seems to me that you could kill 2 birds with 1 stone if you started dripping kalk at night.

 

Even without a stirrer, you can easily set up a DIY dripper from a 2 liter bottle and some airline tubing and valve. Add a teaspoon (or whatever) of kalk and mix it up when you get home from work, then start the drip when you turn in for bed (after the kalk has had time to settle). This should keep PH elevated at night while at the same time help ease some of the burden on the 2-part.

[discretekarma]

So far I've split up when I dose 2 part in to several doses and put the powerhead so that it really stirred up the surface. The Ph went down to 6.55 this morning about an hour before I dosed 2 part.

 

I don't really have space to have a DIY kalk dripper since the tank is in my living room.

 

I'm not really sure what else to do.

[dhoch]

6.55!!!

 

I still think there is an interferance problem.

 

Is there any way you can record what's on the probe? (is is a pinpoint or something else?)

 

Dave

[dandy7200]

Your fish and inverts would be dead if the ph was really 6.55 I would invest in a manual ph test kit at this time.

[Rascal]

Your fish and inverts would be dead if the ph was really 6.55 I would invest in a manual ph test kit at this time.

 

I would think the corals, sand, and rocks would begin to dissolve too, wouldn't they? Most Ca reactor media certainly does if the PH gets that low.

 

I agree with the recommendation to get another test kit (maybe you can also borrow one of the hand-held meters as well?), but once you figure that out if you are still experiencing a large swing at night I still think Kalk would help.

 

I don't really have space to have a DIY kalk dripper since the tank is in my living room.

Are you sure about that? All you need is room enough under your stand to stick a water bottle above the sump somehow, or even just resting on the edge. Look here for one example of how to do it: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-06/nftt/index.php

This will work too, and you can find it at most pet stores: http://cgi.ebay.com/Zoo-Med-Little-Dripper...ksid=p1638.m118

[dhoch]

I would think the corals, sand, and rocks would begin to dissolve too, wouldn't they? Most Ca reactor media certainly does if the PH gets that low.

 

Yes, but it does slowly... you will not perceive it in that time period.

 

Before you do anything drastic get some independent verification of the low pH:

 

1) Use a test kit at the low ph time to calculate pH

2) Recalibrate ph probe

3) Check for interference to see if the drop to 6.55 is slowly over time, or if there is a sudden drop. If you can monitor on a continuous basis (take measurement every 10-15 mins) it would be worth to see what is happening.

 

If your ph was really that low you would be seeing detrimental effects... and I haven't heard you say that yet.

 

Dave

[discretekarma]

I think what's the most confusing for me is that the Ph dropped to 6.58 this morning at 9 and 10 am but yesterday and the day before, it didn't drop below 7.93 all day. On the 31st it dropped to 6.97 from 9 to 10am.

 

I'll try to watch the levels for the next few mornings and when it drops again, I'll do a manual test.

 

Here's the past few days from the Aqua Notes Lite.

 

 

 

[dhoch]

Can you record at a higher frequency (like every 5 or 10 mins).

 

BTW the 1 hour rise of 1 point in pH points to some kind of interference (10-11 AM)... that's a really fast and drastic rise. Happened both days... is then when the lights come on?

 

When do the lights go off?

 

The decrease seems fairly gradual but still very drastic.... Definitely do an independent test.

 

Dave

[discretekarma]

The actinics come one at 11am and go off at 10 pm. The metal halides on the main tank go on at noon and go off at 6pm. The frag tank light goes on at noon and goes off at 6pm and the fuge light goes on at 12am and goes off at 12pm.

 

Found it. I'll be recording at 5 minutes now.

Edited January 3, 2008 by discretekarma

[dhoch]

I don't have aquanotes installed... but I think you are just downloading the information from the aquaconroller correct?

 

If so under the data log menu there is a time interval (log interval?) option.

 

Dave

 

I think seeing the right before and right after lights on is going to tell us a story.

 

Dave

[discretekarma]

I think I dosed the 2 part between 10am and 11am this morning. It was only half though since I've broken it in to 2 doses, 1 morning and 1 night. I think that's why you see the 1 point jump between 10 and 11am.

Edited January 3, 2008 by discretekarma

[discretekarma]

This morning my Ph showed on the AC3 as 6.8. I did a manual test and it read 8.2 so I started looking all over for what my be causing this and here's what I just found out.

 

9:00am -10:00am is when my Ph drops down to 6.5 and 6.8. 10:00am is when my ATO comes on to fill up my system It drops down between 9 and 10 because it's out of the water and then it jumps back to an accurate Ph once the Auto Top Off comes on and fills the sump back up from all the evaporation. I had adjusted the float switches higher for a few days but thought the water looked too high so I put them back where they were. Those were the few day the Ph didn't drop.

 

 

When I put the 2 part in before I go to sleep its still ok. My evaporates fast overnight.

 

Is there a way to have the AC3 come on at 10am and 10pm to fill up the sump? Would it be the same code? This is what I have:

 

If Time > 10:00 Then ATO ON

If Time > 10:15 Then ATO OFF

 

Would the next line be:

 

If Time > 22:00 Then ATO ON

If Time > 22:15 Then ATO OFF

 

 

or would that confuse the AC3?

 

Thanks again for everyone's help.

[discretekarma]

After my tank filled back up I went back over to the tank and realized something else.

 

I bought two 300w heaters because the temp was having extreme fluctuations, or was it?

 

The temp and the Ph probe's were coming out of the water. The temp just now with the lights off was 83.9. I am very lucky that this was caught without crashing or burning up my whole system. I didn't even lose a snail.

[flowerseller]

Are you saying the temp and pH probes become out of water from evaporation before the ATO comes on and then re submerges them?

Also, if you use ORP probe, Neptune suggests the pH and ORP probes be at least 6" apart as it may cause error in pH reading.

[discretekarma]

Correct

 

I raised the float switches and have reprogrammed the AC3 to fill the sump twice like I wrote above. Not sure if that's the correct code or if it'll work but that's what I've done for now.

 

No ORP

 

 

 

Are you saying the temp and pH probes become out of water from evaporation before the ATO comes on and then re submerges them?

Edited January 5, 2008 by discretekarma

[flowerseller]

make a probe holder and lower the probes further into the water.

They can be submerged.

[discretekarma]

I have a probe holder built into my sump. I had only an inch of the probes submerged before but now I have them completely submerged. The temp is about 6" submerged and the Ph is completely submerged. I just moved my float switches. I have it fixed now. I just wanted to share this for anyone else setting one up so they wouldn't make the same mistake.

 

 

make a probe holder and lower the probes further into the water.

They can be submerged.

[flowerseller]

At least you didn't get a text to your cell at 3:00a because your temp probe was out of the water.

Been there, done that.