In need of plumbing assistance!

[mexicanjavafish]

Is there anyone somewhat local who could come over for a bit and look at my plumbing for my tank and check it for any errors I may have made before I glue and run it? Sometime tonight or tomorrow after 4 would be ideal--anyone?

 

(I'm almost thereeeee )

[mexicanjavafish]

I should have added these earlier with the post, but I was having serious uploading issues!

 

 

 

 

(lol, apparently it reminded him and some random guy in Lowe's of a potato gun......what's a potato gun??)

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Yes, I know he's strange....haha but cmon, you have to admit--it's funny )

[Guest NSC]

No offense but just have Jason look at it...after all you guys built it together, I would check it for you but I am in NOVA past BRK.

[mexicanjavafish]

No offense but just have Jason look at it...after all you guys built it together, I would check it for you but I am in NOVA past BRK.

 

That's the thing though, I would just have him look at it, but since he's the one who helped me build it, we want to make sure we didn't miss something or that we didn't make some simple mistake. Would anyone be able to tell if I just uploaded more pics from different places or angles instead of someone making their way out here?

[jamesbuf]

I can't believe you let Jason build that contraption on your tank. If it works, it'll be pretty cool though. I sure hope you guys used some primer.

 

Also, please tell me that tank is in your basement

[davelin315]

My thoughts are that by the time you get the water back to the tank you'll have very little in the way of flow. There are a TON of elbows and unions on there and each elbow and union will reduce the flow by creating more friction (aka head pressure). With the 1" openings into the tank, you'll end up with next to nothing in the way of water movement, at least from what I can see. I think that's an Iwaki? Not sure what it's rated at, but I don't think it'll be very effective with all those twists and turns. Plus, I think that the outlets that are further away from the feed will not have any water flowing out of them at all, especially if they are above water as they appear to be. I would doubt that the pipe itself would ever fill up with water and would always have air in the top of it.

 

Now, if you were to reduce those down to smaller pipe diameter you could increase the velocity of the flow, but you'll still be sacrificing a lot of flow by creating even more pressure. Honestly, it's way too complicated. Of course, you could end up trying it and being incredibly satisfied, but with what I can see, it looks like there's going to be insufficient flow (at least it looks like that based on how complicated your return system looks and what it appears you are trying to accomplish).

[steveoutlaw]

I agree on the flow issue. Not to wreck all your hard work but I would have just the two outlets from the Franken-squid aimed in different directions and maybe supplement with a maxi-jet (if you even need it).

[madmax7774]

dude just try it out, you won't know till you try it. Worst thing that will happen is some light leaking, and probably not even that. when you try it for the first time be prepared to shut it off quickly and mop up a mess.

most likely you'll find it ok, and then you can begin optimizing it

[mexicanjavafish]

I don't know whether or not this was clear there are two pumps running the system the return an iwaki md-20RLT (500 ish gph 4' head) from the sump and then on it's on dedicated closed loop a 4MDQX-SC Water Pump Little Giant (1200 ish at 4' head) should I really go bigger on the closed loop pump, I'm worried about noise issues.

 

Figure the closed loop has no actual head, just "virtual head" if I split it 12 ways at the most probably there'd be 100 gph per outlet with no resistance, with a whopping 20% loss (which is a over compensating in a guesstimate) thats still 80 gph per opening.

 

That gives me 960 gal turn over per hour which is roughly 13 times an hour plus the pump from the sump gives me around 500 gph turn over which roughly 7 times an hour turn over, for a total of 20... is this right in terms of math?

 

should I still be looking for a larger CL pump?

 

~Jason

[davelin315]

I've never understood why people say that a closed loop does not have head loss. The pump is still pumping either way and friction is causing head loss. I think that either way there is head loss throughout the system. I think that you will still not get much flow from those unless you reduce the outlet size down. Also, you will want to submerge those or you're going to get an awful lot of splashing going on in there. Plus, it's not really a closed loop if it's above the tank and not submerged.

[Guest tgallo]

you need a bigger pump.

[jason the filter freak]

I've never understood why people say that a closed loop does not have head loss. The pump is still pumping either way and friction is causing head loss. I think that either way there is head loss throughout the system. I think that you will still not get much flow from those unless you reduce the outlet size down. Also, you will want to submerge those or you're going to get an awful lot of splashing going on in there. Plus, it's not really a closed loop if it's above the tank and not submerged.

 

The out lets will be extended underwater so as to avoid any splashing...

 

here is one similar

 

 

I should also mention the drain going to the pump is 2" at the start to 1.5" all the way till a bushing right at the pump intake that brings it down to 1"

 

so 12 x turnover is not enough for a softie tank?

[Rascal]

12x is plenty, but I think what Dave and Steve are saying is that with 1" outlets your flow will be so dispersed you won't even see or feel it. There has been a lot of progress in this hobby on the aspect of increasing flow while reducing velocity (i.e: maxijets vs. stream-style pumps), but it is possible to go too far on the reduced velocity front. If there isn't enough velocity the flow just won't go anywhere.

The only way to be sure is to fill it and test it, but I think there is any easy fix to this issue. On my CL manifold I used 1" plumbing all the way around, but for the T's I found 1" slip - 3/4" fpt fittings. Then I put the 3/4" mpt locline adaptors into those and went from there. Even though you've already plumbed yours you can do the same thing just by using a 1" - 3/4" fpt bushing (or whatever combination of fittings will get you there). Once you get the locline in there you have a lot of options depending on how much velocity you want out of each outlet. You can leave just the regular 3/4" locline on there, or put either a 3/4" or 1/2" flare nozzle on the end, or even a fan nozzle if you want.

 

As far as head loss / size of pump / noise . . . here are my cents:

 

As long as it is a closed loop (outlets submerged) the only head loss will be due to friction in the plumbing. That said, I think it makes sense to limit that as much as possible. You will get some through your super SCWD, but I understand the trade-off there. One thing I think you could do to improve is just go straight into your manifolds instead of dropping down into them. On your CL after the SCWD, you have a straight section -- 90 towards the tank -- then a 90 down into the T, which faces up. If you point this T straight back you could eliminate 1 of the 90's from each manifold. If you look closely at the 1st pic you posted from my tank you can see what I mean. Just to the left of T with locline outlet pictured, is another T facing straight back. This is where the feed from the pump enters the manifold. I don't think it's a huge deal, but it might help.

 

If you can swing it (and I know someone had a great deal on a used one while back), a Sequence Dart would work really well for you. You could get rid of the bushings at the end of your 2" intake pipe, and you could always dial it down if you needed less flow, or in that case maybe you could leave your outlets at 1". The latter is what I would do for a softie/lps tank -- lots of flow but very dispersed so everything was swaying but nothing was tossed around too much.

 

As for noise, I replaced a Panworld 1200 gph circulation pump with a Dart recently and the Dart was 1/2 as loud -- if that. From what I've read the Little Giants are supposed to be noisier than the Panworlds, so I doubt you'd be adding noise if you upgraded to this pump.

 

None of this needs to be done before you fill it up and try it out, though. As long as you will still have access to the plumbing after the tank is set up, you can always tweak it later -- or even completely redo it if you want.

 

I have no experience with non-drilled closed loops, but I do have a couple of questions. I couldn't tell from the pictures, how are you going to prime it? Do you have the intake in your overflow box?

Edited October 29, 2007 by Rascal

[jason the filter freak]

12x is plenty, but I think what Dave and Steve are saying is that with 1" outlets your flow will be so dispersed you won't even see or feel it. There has been a lot of progress in this hobby on the aspect of increasing flow while reducing velocity (i.e: maxijets vs. stream-style pumps), but it is possible to go too far on the reduced velocity front. If there isn't enough velocity the flow just won't go anywhere.

The only way to be sure is to fill it and test it, but I think there is any easy fix to this issue. On my CL manifold I used 1" plumbing all the way around, but for the T's I found 1" slip - 3/4" fpt fittings. Then I put the 3/4" mpt locline adaptors into those and went from there. Even though you've already plumbed yours you can do the same thing just by using a 1" - 3/4" fpt bushing (or whatever combination of fittings will get you there). Once you get the locline in there you have a lot of options depending on how much velocity you want out of each outlet. You can leave just the regular 3/4" locline on there, or put either a 3/4" or 1/2" flare nozzle on the end, or even a fan nozzle if you want.

 

As far as head loss / size of pump / noise . . . here are my cents:

 

As long as it is a closed loop (outlets submerged) the only head loss will be due to friction in the plumbing. That said, I think it makes sense to limit that as much as possible. You will get some through your super SCWD, but I understand the trade-off there. One thing I think you could do to improve is just go straight into your manifolds instead of dropping down into them. On your CL after the SCWD, you have a straight section -- 90 towards the tank -- then a 90 down into the T, which faces up. If you point this T straight back you could eliminate 1 of the 90's from each manifold. If you look closely at the 1st pic you posted from my tank you can see what I mean. Just to the left of T with locline outlet pictured, is another T facing straight back. This is where the feed from the pump enters the manifold. I don't think it's a huge deal, but it might help.

 

If you can swing it (and I know someone had a great deal on a used one while back), a Sequence Dart would work really well for you. You could get rid of the bushings at the end of your 2" intake pipe, and you could always dial it down if you needed less flow, or in that case maybe you could leave your outlets at 1". The latter is what I would do for a softie/lps tank -- lots of flow but very dispersed so everything was swaying but nothing was tossed around too much.

 

As for noise, I replaced a Panworld 1200 gph circulation pump with a Dart recently and the Dart was 1/2 as loud -- if that. From what I've read the Little Giants are supposed to be noisier than the Panworlds, so I doubt you'd be adding noise if you upgraded to this pump.

 

None of this needs to be done before you fill it up and try it out, though. As long as you will still have access to the plumbing after the tank is set up, you can always tweak it later -- or even completely redo it if you want.

 

I have no experience with non-drilled closed loops, but I do have a couple of questions. I couldn't tell from the pictures, how are you going to prime it? Do you have the intake in your overflow box?

 

I could prime it two ways, I could slide a hose into the intake drain and hook a maxijet up and just let it drain in that way. Or in theory more easily there is a clean out cap at the highest point in the system that would also allow for filling.

[jason the filter freak]

,,,

[jason the filter freak]

Since this was built, the drain and return lines have been replaced with 1.5 inch (drain) and 1 inch (return) hose to prevent vibration noise. Also the 90's that feed the two top manifolds have been replaced with 45's connected to the T's now cocked at a 45 degree angle

 

Any other suggestions

[mexicanjavafish]

Could a moderator possibly merge this thread with my tank thread so it's all in one place and take up less board space?

 

Thanks

[YBeNormal]

It can be done but the end result may be quite confusing since all of the posts will be intermingeled. Can I suggest that we close one and insert a link pointing to the other one instead?