Tank full of questions

[Guest IridanDC]

Hello everyone,

 

I have a bunch of questions. I have had a tank for over a year now but there are lots of questions that I should have gotten down to long before now. We have a 150 and a 75, The 75 is the younger of the tanks and is in the process of being brought up to reef, so experimentation goes on in that tank.

 

I started out with getting advice that I am told is all wrong and have slowly worked through some things.

Many questions may be covered elsewhere and in time I might work my way through the lists to find them but I'm going to make the shopping list right now.

 

Most questions are more relivant to the 150 as it is the tank with the most livestock and therefore our baby.

 

S: situation

Q: Question

 

S: First, Sand. I have Aragonite sand, I was told to get a deep bed, which I did and recently have been pointed out that this may be a big cause of my nitrate problems. I am working to cut down on the amount of sand that I have. As a special notation, there are a pair of Pistol shrim in one of the tanks, shuffling sand about.

Q: How much sand? How deep should i have it? Is Aragonite sand what I should be using?

 

S: Feeding. Yes, I'm feeding the fish, probably overfeeding (This also is being accused of being part of the nitrate issues so I have to get a better idea). I get wildly different opinoins given on how much food should be given, when and types. I also have to feed the corals. We do grow our own DTs. I will be adding a list of residents below.

Q: How much food is a good amount?

 

S: Water movement. In the 150 there are a pair of Wave 2k wave devices (About 4000 GPH movement) and two 800 gph directional power heads. The primary return pump form the sump is a 1500 PHM unit i beleive that is coming out through 4 return heads just underneath the surface of the water. I beleive this is a high flow tank.

Q: Is this a high flow tank? Would making a semi-closed loop (IE PVC down behind the rocks and place outlets and drill holes in it down nearer the sand bed) make a big difference?

 

S: Refugium/reverse photosynthesis. Okay, We bought a tiny 3.5 gallon backpack when we first heard about this. Now also have a 20 gallon tank that is worked into the loop. Calleripa growing like crazy to remove nitrates from the system.

Q: What is a good size for a refugium? Do you need a refugium and reverse photosynthasis type situation? What are the differences between the two realy?

 

S: Lighting. Coralife overhead lighting. 3X 100 watt Metal Halides. 4X 96 watt compact atinics with 420 nm bulbs and 4 X moonlights

Q: How often should bulbs be replaced? We just had one go out and I was looking to replace it and was given a compact with a 420 nm and a 460 nm (very blue) Should we stick with all 420s? Mix 420/460 combos?

 

S: Tangs. Measuring tangs is a curiosity.

Q: Does one measure them from nose to tailtip? Top to bottom? We have two sailfins and list them as being between 16 and 21 inches as adult. Does that mean a 21 inch tall or 21 inch long fish?

 

I'm sure I can come up with other questions, but I think I've been rambling enough for the moment.

 

Livestock:

150: We understand that the tanks in this tank will get large and at some point we are going to be looking into a 300+ gallon tank lest there be overcrowding with such large tangs.

1 Midas blenny

1 lawnmower blenny

1 black blenny (Never got a good name on him)

1 6 line wrass

1 Scooter dragonett

1 Purple tang (Near adult 6-7 inches)

2 Hippo tangs (Fairly young juviniles 2-4 inches)

2 Desjardeni Sailfin tangs (VERY young juviniles 2-4 inches)

 

75:

2 Green spotted puffers (Transitioned from brackish and now quite happy in salt water)

7 Chromis.

 

Thank you for any advice!

[lanman]

Skimmer:

??????????????????????

 

I'm fairly new at this hobby myself... so take these answers as 'I heard...' not - I am experienced enough to know for sure.

 

Q: How much sand? How deep should i have it? Is Aragonite sand what I should be using?

 

3-4" is considered a 'deep sand bed'. Unless those little shrimp are tearing the place up, this should not be an important source of nitrates. It is anticipated that the non-aerobic bacteria in the DSB will turn nitrates into free nitrogen.

 

Q: How much food is a good amount?

I'm not a fish person - I probably overfeed mine. What I was told is they need a bit of food the size of their eyeball each day.

 

Q: Is this a high flow tank? Would making a semi-closed loop (IE PVC down behind the rocks and place outlets and drill holes in it down nearer the sand bed) make a big difference?

Darned if I know. About 10x your tank volume per hour of 'flow-through' should be good. But I'm never sure about how much additional in powerheads and closed-loop, etc. would make it 'high flow'. I'm running about 500gph flow-through, plus 1800gph with powerheads in my 58-gallon tank; and it seems quite sufficient, but I wouldn't call it 'high'.

 

Q: What is a good size for a refugium? Do you need a refugium and reverse photosynthasis type situation? What are the differences between the two realy?

Anything helps - but this is not normally your primary means of nitrate export. A good skimmer will help make sure you don't HAVE much nitrate to start with.

 

Q: How often should bulbs be replaced? We just had one go out and I was looking to replace it and was given a compact with a 420 nm and a 460 nm (very blue) Should we stick with all 420s? Mix 420/460 combos?

What I hear is... 6 months or so for MH and 12 months for fluorescent. I know little about light colors.

 

Q: Does one measure them from nose to tailtip? Top to bottom? We have two sailfins and list them as being between 16 and 21 inches as adult. Does that mean a 21 inch tall or 21 inch long fish?

I'm not a fish person... if any of my fish got to 21 inches, I would start considering how they might taste broiled with a little garlic and butter. I'm reasonably confident that fish are measured from nose to tail.

 

Remember - that's just how I understand it all. I am quite often wrong!

 

bob

[Sugar Magnolia]

Hmmm, I thought a 6-8 inch depth is considered deep sand bed. You said you've had the tank for over a year now. I know some folks that have had their DSB tanks running for over 10+ years, so I doubt the sand bed is the problem. How deep is your at right now? Aragonite sand is the sand of choice.

 

I aslo would like to know what else you have on the system as far as filtration goes. How much Lr is in the tank? Skimmer? Any cansiter filters? Any bioballs? What kind of media are you running, if any?

 

I'm a small tank person, but from what I've researched and read, it seems to me that you have way too many fish in that 150 which would ultimately lead to high nitrates. I may be wrong on that though, I'll let the larger tank folks chime in with their input.

Edited October 21, 2007 by Sugar Magnolia

[lletellier]

I would love to get some live sand from you in a few days depending on where you are...

[Guest IridanDC]

Thank you all for your responses. I appreciate opinions and suggestions.

 

Live Rock: about 150 pounds of Fiji, and about 80 pounds of Picante (Name given by Wally's but reminds me of rather porous and branched Fiji)

 

No Bio balls any more (Phased those out within 6-8 months of setup). No Canister filters. There is one fiber filtration pad that is changed about once a week. Media, none at the moment, but we have used nitrate remover before as well as carbon.

 

Skimmer : ASM G1X protein skimmer. Wow. Okay, I am not going to go into WHERE I purchased my setup, but I know that I got taken and under powered by the 'Marine expert' that was on site and telling me what he would purchase if he were building a new 150 system. I just looked at the skimmer. I'm going to need a new one as that one is rated UP TO 150 gallons. Which is probably rated at a low population. Suggestions on good skimmers appreciated.

 

Sump : Other half of the majorly undersized portions that I was sold. 20 gallon sump. It's underneath the tank and is just long enough that I cannot get it out of the cabinet without moving the tank. Yes, I am looking into increasing things but since i plan to move sometime I hope to wait until I can break the tank down for the move before switching. For folks that know how to make sumps and would like to give me pointers.......

 

Sump/skimmer complication - Due to a poor design on the sump, increasing the size of the skimmer is a difficult proposition (2/3 of the sump was originally filled with bioballs from the manufacturer). I am looking at modifying this sump to give some additional space as well as moving the skimmer away from the return pump (Occasional issues with bubbles). the question has been posed about making the return pump be used as an in line. Can't do that as the ends of the sump ar sloped and there is no place for a proper bulk head. Yay poorly designed hardware being sold to newbs.

 

I'll add in here, Yes, we are still happy with marine fish and despite the complaining i'm doing about things, I know that it's my own fault for not having read and looked more. Some experience has come at the cost of bumps and errors.

 

Sand bed varries from about an inch or two to 5+ inches. This level changes often as the Pistol shrimp are manic bull dosers.

 

lletellier : How much live sand were you looking for? We might be able to help, we'll have to talk about it.

 

We know that once some of the fish get bigger we are going to have to get a bigger setup, that's already in the planning, just trying to get better intel and fix things with this tank as much as possible before sinking the money into bigger and more expensive system (300+ gallon tank is the idea).

 

Oh, last note, add 2 blue neon gobies to the fish list.

 

Thanks again!

[Brian Ward]

Answers to the first set:

 

Q: How much sand? How deep should i have it? Is Aragonite sand what I should be using?

Argonite sand is good. A DSB is usually 6+ inches. A true DSB will reduce your nitrates by processing the NO3 back into N2. Less than 6" is not a DSB or sometimes called SSB. Never disturb these sand beds. Snails, shrimp, etc can move them a little but if you ever stir it up you will usually release the toxic chemicals into the water and kill most of your livestock. Stirring the sand bed will release nitrates into the water, but a sandbed is not a source of nitrates.

 

Q: How much food is a good amount?

For the tangs, keep nori or other veggie material on a veggie clip in the tank - I would keep that well-stocked to prevent hunger which leads to aggression in the tangs. If you're not feeding the tangs veggie material, their health and color will suffer. When adding pellets, mysis, etc add it slowly and let the fish eat, after about 10 mins scoop out any remaining food - you don't want it to decompose in the tank.

 

Q: Is this a high flow tank? Would making a semi-closed loop (IE PVC down behind the rocks and place outlets and drill holes in it down nearer the sand bed) make a big difference?

I would say you do have a high-flow tank. 30x-50x per hour turnover is easily considered high flow. Your powerheads function similar to a closed loop - when you set up the tank, you can either use power heads for additional flow or set up a closed loop - the closed loop is mostly so you don't have to look at power heads. 7x-10x through your sump for filtration is sufficient and you really don't want much more. If you want lots of info on closed loops, go to www.oceansmotions.com and read through the forums. This is the setup I like best:

http://www.oceansmotions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=546

 

Q: What is a good size for a refugium? Do you need a refugium and reverse photosynthasis type situation? What are the differences between the two realy?

A fuge is good for nutrient export. The macro algae will consume phosphates and nitrates in the tank water, keeping the algae in your display under control. The reverse photo period is to keep the pH of the tank even throughout the day - the pH will tend to be higher during the day and lower at night. A reverse photoperiod will allow for photosynthetic processes in the tank during the day, in the fuge at night, maintaining the rate of CO2 consumption. CO2 - released by the fish through respiration, and not consumed by the corals at night, is what contributes to the drop in pH at night.

 

Q: How often should bulbs be replaced? We just had one go out and I was looking to replace it and was given a compact with a 420 nm and a 460 nm (very blue) Should we stick with all 420s? Mix 420/460 combos?

I've heard different than Bob - 6 mos on PC, 12 mos on MH. I do my PCs every 6-9 mos. You can mix the blue wavelengths if you want - the blue is almost entirely about how you want the tank to look.

 

Q: Does one measure them from nose to tailtip? Top to bottom? We have two sailfins and list them as being between 16 and 21 inches as adult. Does that mean a 21 inch tall or 21 inch long fish?

Fish are always measured in length, not height. I'm not sure if you include the tail in the length - my guess would be the measurement is nose to end of body, not including the tail - since tail shapes and lengths vary greatly between species.

 

I do not think you're overstocked but you definitely need a good skimmer. Euro-Reef, Deltek, Grey Seas Aquatic are all excellent choices. The skimmer will help keep your nitrates in check and contribute to high water quality.

 

For 2nd post:

rock quantity looks good - make sure your power heads are forcing flow through the rocks so the water gets exposure to the bacteria colonies.

 

bio balls are nitrate factories, good move taking those out if you have a reef tank. Filter floss (pillow stuffing) is a good choice for mechanical filtration - you might want to consider modifying your sump to accept filter bags. this is a popular option and all of Dan's sumps use filter bags for mechanical filtration

 

Always over-size the skimmer. Look for a recirculating model. If you have a 150 tank, get a skimmer rated for at least 220.

 

Talk to Dan about your sump situation. He is mostly likely able to help somehow.

 

Get an external skimmer so you don't take up sump space with it. Drill the sides of the sump for bulkheads and use a PVC 90 to draw the water from as low in the sump as you can - should help get around the curved walls.

[Guest IridanDC]

Brian,

 

Thanks a lot for all of the great information. I am going to have to look into taking some of your suggestions into play and see about getting in touch with Dan and see what he might be able to suggest/show me.

 

Andrew

 

Answers to the first set:

 

Q: How much sand? How deep should i have it? Is Aragonite sand what I should be using?

Argonite sand is good. A DSB is usually 6+ inches. A true DSB will reduce your nitrates by processing the NO3 back into N2. Less than 6" is not a DSB or sometimes called SSB. Never disturb these sand beds. Snails, shrimp, etc can move them a little but if you ever stir it up you will usually release the toxic chemicals into the water and kill most of your livestock. Stirring the sand bed will release nitrates into the water, but a sandbed is not a source of nitrates.

 

Q: How much food is a good amount?

For the tangs, keep nori or other veggie material on a veggie clip in the tank - I would keep that well-stocked to prevent hunger which leads to aggression in the tangs. If you're not feeding the tangs veggie material, their health and color will suffer. When adding pellets, mysis, etc add it slowly and let the fish eat, after about 10 mins scoop out any remaining food - you don't want it to decompose in the tank.

 

Q: Is this a high flow tank? Would making a semi-closed loop (IE PVC down behind the rocks and place outlets and drill holes in it down nearer the sand bed) make a big difference?

I would say you do have a high-flow tank. 30x-50x per hour turnover is easily considered high flow. Your powerheads function similar to a closed loop - when you set up the tank, you can either use power heads for additional flow or set up a closed loop - the closed loop is mostly so you don't have to look at power heads. 7x-10x through your sump for filtration is sufficient and you really don't want much more. If you want lots of info on closed loops, go to www.oceansmotions.com and read through the forums. This is the setup I like best:

http://www.oceansmotions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=546

 

Q: What is a good size for a refugium? Do you need a refugium and reverse photosynthasis type situation? What are the differences between the two realy?

A fuge is good for nutrient export. The macro algae will consume phosphates and nitrates in the tank water, keeping the algae in your display under control. The reverse photo period is to keep the pH of the tank even throughout the day - the pH will tend to be higher during the day and lower at night. A reverse photoperiod will allow for photosynthetic processes in the tank during the day, in the fuge at night, maintaining the rate of CO2 consumption. CO2 - released by the fish through respiration, and not consumed by the corals at night, is what contributes to the drop in pH at night.

 

Q: How often should bulbs be replaced? We just had one go out and I was looking to replace it and was given a compact with a 420 nm and a 460 nm (very blue) Should we stick with all 420s? Mix 420/460 combos?

I've heard different than Bob - 6 mos on PC, 12 mos on MH. I do my PCs every 6-9 mos. You can mix the blue wavelengths if you want - the blue is almost entirely about how you want the tank to look.

 

Q: Does one measure them from nose to tailtip? Top to bottom? We have two sailfins and list them as being between 16 and 21 inches as adult. Does that mean a 21 inch tall or 21 inch long fish?

Fish are always measured in length, not height. I'm not sure if you include the tail in the length - my guess would be the measurement is nose to end of body, not including the tail - since tail shapes and lengths vary greatly between species.

 

I do not think you're overstocked but you definitely need a good skimmer. Euro-Reef, Deltek, Grey Seas Aquatic are all excellent choices. The skimmer will help keep your nitrates in check and contribute to high water quality.

 

For 2nd post:

rock quantity looks good - make sure your power heads are forcing flow through the rocks so the water gets exposure to the bacteria colonies.

 

bio balls are nitrate factories, good move taking those out if you have a reef tank. Filter floss (pillow stuffing) is a good choice for mechanical filtration - you might want to consider modifying your sump to accept filter bags. this is a popular option and all of Dan's sumps use filter bags for mechanical filtration

 

Always over-size the skimmer. Look for a recirculating model. If you have a 150 tank, get a skimmer rated for at least 220.

 

Talk to Dan about your sump situation. He is mostly likely able to help somehow.

 

Get an external skimmer so you don't take up sump space with it. Drill the sides of the sump for bulkheads and use a PVC 90 to draw the water from as low in the sump as you can - should help get around the curved walls.