davelin315 August 24, 2006 Share August 24, 2006 Well, you learn something new each day! That's why this site is so great. From glancing at the thread, it appears that you have to use aragonite and it has to be oolitic sand (round) so that it can remain "fluid" as a bed. I haven't read the entire thread, but Calfo said that ... increased surface area has its advantages, but we need to be crystal clear here on our (limited) expectations for a restricted DSB like this: It will become biologically active on a microscopic level of course... but not much more than that. This really is about reducing nitrates... and not much more. The lack of "food" in the form of solid matter is the very thing that prevents such deep, fast flow beds from becoming nutrient sinks. Yet we can still enjoy (or cannot stop) the possible denitrifying faculties from pulling from the constant stream of dissolved matter in the water always above the bed. That pet shop 55gall DSB noticed nitrates dropping in less than a month. As far as the question of "how does diffusive movement occur"... I would ask the following question in reply: how does it not occur? In a rather wacky analogy... do consider if at the bottom of your DSB bucket, barrel or tank... you first poured gasoline enough to fill the vessel 1/10th. Then you fill the rest of the vessel with dry or live sand... and turn it all online. Would anyone like to venture a guess if the gasoline at the bottom of that vessel will ever make it to the surface, or diffuse otherwise to the extent that it influences water quality? I think it will The DSB is not so literally sealed off from or isolate from the system water. It is fluid - literally... actually, with the delightfully unstable nature (round) of oolitic grains of sand in the case of aragonite. The application summarily has limited benefits, limited risks, limited expense... and limited baggage (long-term). Its just a deep bucket of sand If you have to buy bucket and sand new... the bucket will cost you more Worst case scenario... it doesn't work, and you wasted $10. It won't be the first $10 you waste on your reef tank. heehee But I have honestly seen this simply application work many times. For a normal (not over)bio-load... it can make a difference. So, there are two different versions of a DSB. This one serves one purpose and one purpose only, denitrification. The original plan was for a refugium, which this definitely is not, but if you can squeeze the refugium into the space where you used to have the bioballs, you're golden! Some modifications are in order on your overall system, and I would probably try and plumb the bucket so that the water is pumped in and then pours out via gravity (I think you'll have a problem with maintaining the water level and flow correctly if you have it gravity fed from your sump given that the bucket needs to have the bulkhead installed up high versus down low). If you plumb it with a powerhead off of your sump, or even tee off of your existing return pump, you can pump water through the bucket and then let it go back into the sump via gravity. Glad you posted this thread, learned something new today! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak August 25, 2006 Author Share August 25, 2006 glad my stupidity, and curiosity could benifit others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YBeNormal August 25, 2006 Share August 25, 2006 I read the first few hundred pages of that thread ( ) several months ago and recall some discussion about whether it had to be aragonite or oolitic sand and there were several knowledgable folks that had used regular silicone sand with great success. The real key is to have the water flow over the top of the sand fast enough to prevent any debris from settling on/in the sand and decomposing. I had a problem with the sand blowing around in the bucket and piling up so I cut a section of eggcrate in a circle and pushed that it into the sand until it was just covered. Problem solved! Edit: Regarding the drawing with the sealed lid over the RDSB bucket, this idea was also discussed in the thread. Placed above the sump will work fine but placing it under the tank resulted in serious pressure on the lid resulting in leaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xCGx August 25, 2006 Share August 25, 2006 in your setup it looks like you have a seperate feed pump. you don't need to have it fed from a seperate pump....just branch off from your return line and put a valve in between that for flow adjustment..... ps...I also used the play sand from yardright with the silica in it. No adverse affects from what I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 August 25, 2006 Share August 25, 2006 In case it wasn't clear, here's why Calfo suggests you use oolitic sand versus silica sand: silica is OK for the DSB bucket and use in general. The issue of leaching silica is generally overstated if an issue at all. The real disadvantage of silica is its shape. Unlike oolitic sand (round/fluid moving), silica is angular and sharp - it locks in place and packs tight. As long as you prevent solids from accumulating/penetrating... there will be no problem with silica sand here. and a few posts later: I do prefer some sort of calcareous/carbonate sand over silica for shape (tumbled or round) versus silica (sharp, angular). I have very few worries about the composition of silica if you need to use it. Get aragonite of you can... calcite is fine instead if you must for a calcareous source. Seachem bags some very nice sands... calcite and aragonite of various colors. They are a big name that is not that hard to find in LFS shops across the states (or most LFS folks can easily order it form big regional distributors). For how little sand is needed for a DSB bucket... it may be worth it instead of settling for silica IMO. That said, he also says it shouldn't be a problem if you get it set up correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 August 25, 2006 Share August 25, 2006 OK, I had another thought as I've been reading the Calfo thread for the past couple of hours (very good read, but it looks like I'm at the point where he left RC - was he one of the guys who left? - and now I see very little of his input in the thread). Anyway, you have a preexisting trickle filter. Take the bioballs out and convert the bioball "tower" area into a sealed environment, meaning take some acrylic and seal off the bottom where the water would flow out through. There is most likely an "overflow area" for where the water can go when the drip plate has basically clogged, so simply let the water flow out through that. It'll give you an area of anaerobic respiration and also allow you to use your investment. Of course, you'll initially have to compensate for the loss of the bioballs, but if you have enough LR, you shouldn't do any harm to your system. Also, if you fill the chamber all the way up to where the drip plate is, you should get enough water exchange through the holes in the drip plate to properly feed the sand bed. Follow my train of thought? I'm thinking of trying this out for a school tank now that I've gotten a good read and gotten more excited about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YBeNormal August 25, 2006 Share August 25, 2006 OK, I had another thought as I've been reading the Calfo thread for the past couple of hours (very good read, but it looks like I'm at the point where he left RC - was he one of the guys who left? - and now I see very little of his input in the thread). It looks like he took a short break or maybe reduced his participation. I noticed he posted on 6/21 and then nothing else until 7/21 when he posted in another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak August 25, 2006 Author Share August 25, 2006 uNFORTUNATELY, IT SEEMS i CAN'T find anything byt silica sand, nor am I guessing the other stuff is all that cheap... there are no marine supply store around be, and darned if I'm going to pay shipping and handling on .... sand. I'm guessing though if the water flow can be kept fast enough I shouldn't have a problem with it... Next question. I ready most of the thread as well, but being full time in both college and the buisness wolrd I'm struggeling a bit here... What's any ones opnion here, should i have a pump pushing water into the RDSB, or pulling it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YBeNormal August 25, 2006 Share August 25, 2006 PetSmart and Petco both sell aragonite, so locating it in your area should not be that difficult. As mentioned earlier, you are not talking about great quantities here so I'd recommend biting the bullet and skipping the silicone sand route. IRT having the pump push or pull, I'd go with push. Some grit is bound to get kicked up from time to time and you really don't want your impeller being subjected to that. It would be even better if you set the bucket up where it can be gravity fed from your tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak August 25, 2006 Author Share August 25, 2006 IRT having the pump push or pull, I'd go with push. Some grit is bound to get kicked up from time to time and you really don't want your impeller being subjected to that. It would be even better if you set the bucket up where it can be gravity fed from your tank. Why would I want to gravity feed it? I'm asking not arguing? Whats the advantage...? How would I do it? and what would prevent it from flooding in a power outtage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 August 25, 2006 Share August 25, 2006 I would go with the pump going into the bucket and gravity carrying water out. In reading more and more, you could always do silica sand in the bottom of the bucket and then dump a layer of aragonite or even crushed coral on top of it. This will provide the buffering that could happen with aragonite and since the water is flowing quickly across the top, it won't allow things to settle into the crushed coral. Also, as far as a gravity fed bucket, as long as you filter the water, no problems. If you basically take what you've got and then let the water flow into it from the top (I'd put an elbow on it so that it doesn't pour straight down into the substrate itself) it'll drain out. When your power goes out, the water will simply stop pouring down. It won't overflow because you already have an outlet on the bucket itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YBeNormal August 25, 2006 Share August 25, 2006 Water is supposed to flow over the sand and then out, so the RDSB is basically designed to overflow. Placing a lid on the bucket forces the water to exit through a hole in the side of the bucket rather than over the top, but it's still overflowing. It's only going to flow as long as water is being fed to it though and gravity feeding it from your tank or sump eliminates the need for a pump or for diverting your existing flow to the RDSB using a "T" off of your return pump. How would you do this? Ideally, the RDSB would be located downstream from your skimmer so it is being fed using filtered water. This is not an absolute requirement though. You could have the water from your tank overflows draining to the RDSB and then on to the sump. You could also locate the top of the RDSB slightly higher than your tank and have your return pump push the water up to the RDSB where it would then drain back into your tank. I'm modifying my setup right now but my RDSB is a 5g Home Depot bucket sitting in a Rubbermaid tub that is located after my main sump. The water from the sump drains across the RDSB, then into the Rubbermaid container where my return pump is located. Here is an old picture of my tank room (lots of changes since this picture was taken and even more underway). The RDSB is located in the tub on the lower right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak August 25, 2006 Author Share August 25, 2006 Whats that pvc fixture off the back of your tank? With the inline pump... I have an inline pump sitting around my house that in theory pushed 800 GPH of water i think... it's not written on there and I have no idea how to calculate it. Anywho I was going to use one of those, in some application or another... to drive my UV sterilizer when i can afford it, but I thought for now i could use it to drive the bucket for now, i think if i did a closed loop system it would work, any opnions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 August 25, 2006 Share August 25, 2006 How would you filter the water from a closed loop and, more importantly, you would have to have a completely sealed RDSB that is watertight in order to use it on part of a closed loop (a closed loop simply pumps the water from the tank directly back in without opening it up to anything). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YBeNormal August 25, 2006 Share August 25, 2006 The pvc fixture in the picture is a poor man's closed loop for a non-RR, non-drilled tank. I took it off when I upgraded the 55g in the picture to a 75g and have yet to reinstall it. I personally feel there are too many potential issues with adding a RDSB to a closed loop. The amount of pressure you will exert on the lid of the bucket will make it prone to leaking if you place the bucket after the pump. Placing it before the pump would pretty much guarantee sand getting into the impeller, also not a good thing. That's JMHO though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak August 29, 2006 Author Share August 29, 2006 bump/ How many people in the club use these? Does it need to have a tight fitting lid, i was planning just to use a waste basket. Due to lack of space... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YBeNormal August 29, 2006 Share August 29, 2006 bump/ How many people in the club use these? Does it need to have a tight fitting lid, i was planning just to use a waste basket. Due to lack of space... I have one at the moment, but you already know that from my previous posts. In response to your question, the RDSB does not need a lid at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davelin315 August 29, 2006 Share August 29, 2006 After reading this thread and doing the research on it, I'm going to try one at school if I have the space for it. The predator tank could certainly use some nitrate reduction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YBeNormal August 29, 2006 Share August 29, 2006 They are cheap, easy to implement and don't take up much room. No reason not to give it a try. As with many things in this hobby though, it can take several months before you begin to see measurable results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak August 31, 2006 Author Share August 31, 2006 if 6 inches will do in a show tank, will 6 inches do in a RSDB, or should it be 10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xCGx August 31, 2006 Share August 31, 2006 if 6 inches will do in a show tank, will 6 inches do in a RSDB, or should it be 10? The deeper the better, but more importantly is the size of the surface area. I would go with 10 inches IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak August 31, 2006 Author Share August 31, 2006 How about a trough about 3 feel long about 10 inches wide, and 12 inches deep, or could a 5 gallon bucket do better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xCGx August 31, 2006 Share August 31, 2006 How about a trough about 3 feel long about 10 inches wide, and 12 inches deep, or could a 5 gallon bucket do better? [/quote You would probably do better with a fuge with that setup, but a 5 gallon bucket just for trates would work fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason the filter freak September 1, 2006 Author Share September 1, 2006 Some one suggested I add sugar or Vodka to my tank to create nitrate eating bactiera. Suppose this will work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phisigs79 September 1, 2006 Share September 1, 2006 That cap will rust over time. Not a good idea to put metal in your tank IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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