Help me plan a fish room project!

[treesprite]

I  want to see the hole in the wall already. 

[Steve G]

8 hours ago, Origami said:

Back to your (Jan 14) floor plan for a second: Are you concerned that the small space between the utility closet and the new door is going to be (regrettably)  limiting if you need to move something big/long into the fish-room space? You might have better access just leaving the door opening where it is and flipping it around (i.e. installing another left-hand door) to where it opens outward.

 

I have six circuits in my fish-room just so it's easy to expand. I don't use anywhere near the capacity of any one circuit, though. My breaker panel, though, is on the opposite end of the house.

 

One thing I'd look into in your situation is whether or not having your breaker panel in the potentially high-humidity (i.e. damp) environment of a fish-room is advisable or code-compliant. Any condensation in the panel will create a hazardous situation. Corrosion, too, may be come a factor. This can be mitigated with humidity control, but I don't know what you have planned for that.

 

Good points here. I have a decent sized window in case I need to get things in or out of the room, and it's slightly below grade, so stuff would load into/out of my side lawn. So I'm not worried about the small doorway. To be safe, I'll get my storage water tanks and the fish tank and stand set up before I close up any walls.

 

Yeesh, I don't think I'll run six circuits. I already have 1 or 2 and was going to add two more. I do have to think about humidity control. Maybe run a dehumidifier. I have a floor unit I can set up, but now we're drawing more electricity...

[linkfalcon]

I ran 2 20 amp four gangs outlets home runs to my panel. I reccomand running one more run then u think u will need so u don’t have any crazy power strips going on


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Steve G]

Love all the advice! Here is my latest update (sorry this is a lot of words and no pictures). I feel like planning this thing is a full time job and it could be months before anything is swimming around.

 

Have some equipment on hand

• Laundry sink arrived, not installed
• RODI, 5-stage 100 gpd from Air Water Ice arrived, not installed
• Found my old Aqua-C EV 180 skimmer, maybe underpowered for what I need, but I'm hoping to use deep sandbed in display and LR in sump for main filtration
• Two buckets of salt ordered
• Have some pumps and powerheads and thermometers lying around, probably not enough though
• Have a bunch of tubing of various sizes lying around, definitely not enough. (Much of it is airline + JG fittings for my acclimation drips)
• Found my old turkey baster and refractometer in the garage -- moment of nostalgia
• 100 lbs of aragonite sand bought off craigslist at a great price, just need ~400 lbs more (1mm grain size needed for DSB in display)
• Sump -- 100 gallon acrylic tank bought from epleeds. I am somewhat regretting the purchase as there is a missing bulkhead nut and both overflow boxes leak like crazy, so I may have to cut them out with a dremel. That sounds like an awful project. Or I have to learn how to use solvent cement and seal 8 seams. That also sounds awful too.

Other equipment planning to get soon

• Custom tank (72x30x25 with starphire on front and right side, overflow on left side). I have 3 bids from tank manufacturers and am hoping to get a fourth. This is going to cost me a lot of money!
• Water mixing station: after much waffling, and thinking hard about 100 gallon ace roto mold containers, I think I might go for two 55 gallon trash cans with lids to save some money. Rubbermaid Brute is the go-to brand, but I found a knockoff called Carlisle that is much cheaper and should do the trick.
• Sand and rock -- looking for desperate people doing tank breakdowns to save some $$

I have an architect helping me with drawings of the tank space and fishroom. He's going to design:

• Where exactly the hole in the wall will go
• The stand, making sure it will support the weight of the tank (consulting with a structural engineer)
• The height. As an in-wall tank, it will essentially be the backsplash for a bar. He wants it high for aesthetics, but I am not very tall, so we may need a movable catwalk for access to the display from the fish room. We may be able to cover up the bottom few inches of the tank, since i want a deep sand bed and nobody needs to see that gunk on the display side.
• Layout of the fishroom to accommodate water mixing, acclimation and quarantine stations, maybe a phyto- or brine shrimp-breeding station, general work area. (What else?)
• Running of electrical (north side of room) and water lines (south side of room), including new circuits
• Placement of a floor drain (drilled into the slab) with pump, also PVC molding to make sure floods don't damage the walls
• Removal of current door to fish room and creation of a new opening by demolishing the wall between the fish room closet and the living room. This will create a mini-foyer and I will just use the current closet door as the new entrance to the fish room

Once I have water, stand, tank, and sump sorted, next things will be:

• Dehumidifier for the fish room -- critical, since the electrical panel is in there. I have a floor unit air conditioner which was very powerful. It's sitting in my garage, but it seems to only work sporadically. My project is to test it again and figure out what the problem was.
• Return and circulation pumps and plumbing the mixing station
• Tank automation and test kits/probes -- have to study what's changed in the hobby. Looks like everyone uses those Apex systems. They look expensive. I am a bit paralyzed in that I don't want to buy probes and test kits or really any single-piece controllers as I don't want to duplicate something that I would want to have be part of the Apex system. In my last tank I rigged my own auto-topoff and did all my dosing by hand. I used an aquacontroller for lights and fans.
• Lighting (and filtration) -- also have to re-educate myself, since when I was in the hobby I ran metal halides with power compacts. I still have a dual ballast 175 watt single-ended MH fixture. Not sure how to light a 72" x 30" x 25" tank. I do know that I want a deep sand bed, like 5" to 6", which means that the effective height of the tank will be closer to 19" or 20"
• Livestock. I am so overwhelmed with everything else I've barely thought about livestock. I had big plans to do an accurate biotope, but could not decide on a region and my wife wants certain pretty fish so that may never happen. I know you're supposed to decide on what you want to keep first and then design the tank accordingly, but I did not do that. I want to design the tank to leave my options open: strong circulation, lots of water volume and swimming room, open aquascaping, strong LED lighting, but I am committed to a deep sand bed. I want lots of live rock, but that's going in the sump. I don't want the tank stuffed with rock and corals. I want the tank's beauty to come from open spaces, swimthroughs, and other negative space features that fish and inverts can play in. Corals are background. 

 

The other major update is that we cut into the wall and it looks like the wall is not load-bearing, so that is wonderful news. 

[Steve G]

On 2/11/2020 at 11:03 PM, treesprite said:

I  want to see the hole in the wall already. 

 

Lol. I feel the same way. Your patience will be rewarded some day. 

 

Glad to see WAMAS members in the Silver Spring/Takoma area. I was wondering who else is in the area. I always felt like everyone in the club was out in Manassas or places like that.

[Gonzo1945]

Hey, Glad to hear you are getting back into the hobby. Would love to see pictures of the process and the final results.

 

Good luck,

 

Nelson

[treesprite]

I really advise against putting a DSB in the display tank (deep enough for nitrate reduction, 4+").  If the bed gets disturbed too far down or just goes bad, you could be looking at annihilation of all your livestock. Either do a remote DSB or do an ATS instead.

[Steve G]

I really advise against putting a DSB in the display tank (deep enough for nitrate reduction, 4+").  If the bed gets disturbed too far down or just goes bad, you could be looking at annihilation of all your livestock. Either do a remote DSB or do an ATS instead.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I have to say I’m not convinced that this is a problem. I have read a lot of sand debates and kept DSB tanks myself for years. There are so many areas of reefkeeping where I admittedly have much to learn (lighting technology, controller technology, plumbing) but ironically this is one where I am pretty confident.

[Jon Lazar]

On 2/17/2020 at 11:14 PM, Steve G said:

• Laundry sink arrived, not installed

 

Most stock laundry sinks I've seen are too short, and give me a backache from bending over them while scrubbing pumps or whatever.  My sink is mounted in a cabinet, and I raised the cabinet maybe a foot higher than stock.  My back loves it.

 

On 2/17/2020 at 11:14 PM, Steve G said:

• Water mixing station: after much waffling, and thinking hard about 100 gallon ace roto mold containers, I think I might go for two 55 gallon trash cans with lids to save some money. Rubbermaid Brute is the go-to brand, but I found a knockoff called Carlisle that is much cheaper and should do the trick.

 

I built my water station from two 55 gallon barrels that were originally used for soda syrup.  They were $5 each.  Someone from WAMAS picked up a bunch of them and passed the savings on to club members.  I think they're also available through Craigslist.

 

On 2/17/2020 at 11:14 PM, Steve G said:

• Tank automation and test kits/probes -- have to study what's changed in the hobby. Looks like everyone uses those Apex systems. They look expensive. I am a bit paralyzed in that I don't want to buy probes and test kits or really any single-piece controllers as I don't want to duplicate something that I would want to have be part of the Apex system. In my last tank I rigged my own auto-topoff and did all my dosing by hand. I used an aquacontroller for lights and fans.

 

I absolutely love having a tank controller.  Mostly because if something measurable goes wrong, I receive email/text notification and can sound an alarm.  Ever forget to turn your heater/ATO/whatever on after doing a water change?  I have a switch that turns all the right things off for a water change, then all back on when I'm done.  The Apex classics are fine for most users, and you don't need the latest version (Apex 2018).  I still use an Aquacontroller II for one of my tanks.  I bought it used in 1998.  You can buy a late model used Apex setup with most everything you need for $300.  You would need the controller brain, an energy bar outlet trip, and a temperature probe.  Later you might add an Avast  breakout box.

 

On 2/17/2020 at 11:14 PM, Steve G said:

I feel like planning this thing is a full time job and it could be months before anything is swimming around.

 

You'll be so glad you did.  Planning doesn't guarantee success, but not planning guarantees failure.

 

[treesprite]

On 2/19/2020 at 9:35 AM, Steve G said:

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I have to say I’m not convinced that this is a problem. I have read a lot of sand debates and kept DSB tanks myself for years. There are so many areas of reefkeeping where I admittedly have much to learn (lighting technology, controller technology, plumbing) but ironically this is one where I am pretty confident.

 

I have only done it once, in a 16 tall office tank, because I was only using a PC fixture and needed the distance to the bottom to be shorter. It had no skimmer, no filtration, no dosing, and I only did quarterly water changes, and yet it was/still is the only treef tank I have ever had that had pristine water parameters. 

 

I am a strong believer in the power of an in-tank DSB, it's just that I've read too many cautions about them going foul in large reef tanks. If it weren't for that, I would do it myself. 

[Steve G]

Live rock a-cookin’


Laundry sink and RODI ready for installation


Sump still needs work to convert from reef ready tank with leaky overflows and a missing bulkhead nut to functional sump tank.

[Steve G]

For the sump I’ve repurposed an acrylic reef ready tank. First step was to make it unreefready. Remove corner overflows, cap bulkheads and clean the whole mess. 
 

See if you can tell which is the before and which is the after picture! I love vinegar. It removes what my 9 year old daughter calls “coral vomit”. 
 

[Steve G]

Next is installing baffles. I cut the acrylic pieces so there’s no turning back there but I haven’t decided on placement, which will determine chamber size.

 

i have 4’ to work with side to side with 22” front to back (and also 22” high). I was thinking of this design. Please critique!

 

10” wide drain/skimmer chamber
12” high baffle

24” Wide refugium (Will have lots of sand)

3.75” bubble trap (Over-under-over) with 1.5” between baffles, each .25” acrylic attached with Weldon 16)  

10.25” wide return chamber with float switch connected to external auto topoff reservoir

[Jon Lazar]

Do you have a skimmer picked out?  If so, does it fit in a 10" space and run well in 12" of water?  Some skimmers work best in a particular depth range.  If you don't have a skimmer picked out, you could look at several contenders and make sure they'll all fit with possibly room to grow.

 

Also, you might consider adding filter sock brackets even if you don't plan on using filter socks full time.  IMO it's nice to have the bracket installed so you have the option of using them if ever needed.  That might require you to move the right-most divider some.

 

For your ATO, I would consider adding a manual float shut off valve in addition to the float switch for redundancy.

[Steve G]

19 hours ago, Jon Lazar said:

Do you have a skimmer picked out?  If so, does it fit in a 10" space and run well in 12" of water?  Some skimmers work best in a particular depth range.  If you don't have a skimmer picked out, you could look at several contenders and make sure they'll all fit with possibly room to grow.

 

I do, but I suspect as my bioload grows I'll need a bigger one. Either way, I have a lot of vertical space. The stand is 39" tall so I'm not worried. As for the width, that's a good point. I will look up some specs of other popular skimmers to make sure I'm not limiting my options too much. Maybe I'll widen the chamber to 12"

 

Quote

Also, you might consider adding filter sock brackets even if you don't plan on using filter socks full time.  IMO it's nice to have the bracket installed so you have the option of using them if ever needed.  That might require you to move the right-most divider some.

 

This is a good idea! Since I'm building a sump out of a eurobraced acrylic tank, I can probably drill two 1.5" holes in the bracing without compromising it. The third drain is for emergency so I won't need a sock or bracket. I'll takesome measurements to see how that can work. Edited: I see the sock brackets go lower down, closer to the outlet. Will see if I can buy or make one. Or at least make room for them.

 

Quote

For your ATO, I would consider adding a manual float shut off valve in addition to the float switch for redundancy.

 

Good point. As usual, you have great advice. Thanks so much!

Edited June 4, 2020 by Steve G

[Steve G]

Updated sump design.

 

[Jon Lazar]

Your diagram shows sand, rock, and maybe macroalgae in the refugium chamber.  Have you thought about doing a remote refugium outside of the sump?  An in-sump refugium makes great sense when you don't have a tank room and everything has to fit inside the stand.  But you've got this awesome tank room to work with.

 

I like a remote refugium because it elevates the refugium and makes maintenance or viewing easier.  You could use something inexpensive like a 40 gallon breeder with an internal overflow, or find a larger used tank like a 120 gal.  Pump water up from the sump to the refugium, and let it gravity drain from the fuge back into the sump.

 

[Steve G]

I've thought about a remote refugium but I'm fine with it being in one chamber in the sump sitting under the stand. There should be plenty of room. I have plans for most of the rest of the room. I want a work bench/desk, fridge/freezer, dehumidifer, and an elevated tank to use as QT.

 

For example, the water-changing station will take up quite a bit of space. Here is a shot of it right now. I have a lot of plumbing to do still. That's my next project. I'm not very experienced at hard plumbing, but will try to follow all the online examples. I'm already starting to regret the types of fittings I've bought. hard to decide whether fittings should be threaded or slip, whether valves should be standard issue ball valves that Home Depot sells for $4 or fancy true union cepex ones that BRS sells for like $28 each.

 

Also, I bought all 1" plumbing but now that feels like overkill but I don't know if it's worth trying to return dozens of parts to two or three different stores to switch to 3/4".  Edited: I should be fine with 1" pipe. I just need to adapt the 3/4" pump outlet on the mag drive.

 

Finally, I have a blueline 2000 and two mag 12 pumps. I was thinking maybe just use the two mags one for the return and one for the water station but not sure.  Some say the mag drive should not be run externally (which is what I need for the water station). The blueline is probably overkill for the water station. It will sit about two feet away from the sump so head pressure is not a concern.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Steve G

[cpeguero]

8 hours ago, Steve G said:

I've thought about a remote refugium but I'm fine with it being in one chamber in the sump sitting under the stand. There should be plenty of room. I have plans for most of the rest of the room. I want a work bench/desk, fridge/freezer, dehumidifer, and an elevated tank to use as QT.

 

For example, the water-changing station will take up quite a bit of space. Here is a shot of it right now. I have a lot of plumbing to do still. That's my next project. I'm not very experienced at hard plumbing, but will try to follow all the online examples. I'm already starting to regret the types of fittings I've bought. hard to decide whether fittings should be threaded or slip, whether valves should be standard issue ball valves that Home Depot sells for $4 or fancy true union cepex ones that BRS sells for like $28 each.

 

Also, I bought all 1" plumbing but now that feels like overkill but I don't know if it's worth trying to return dozens of parts to two or three different stores to switch to 3/4".  Edited: I should be fine with 1" pipe. I just need to adapt the 3/4" pump outlet on the mag drive.

 

Finally, I have a blueline 2000 and two mag 12 pumps. I was thinking maybe just use the two mags one for the return and one for the water station but not sure.  Some say the mag drive should not be run externally (which is what I need for the water station). The blueline is probably overkill for the water station. It will sit about two feet away from the sump so head pressure is not a concern.

 

I run a Mag 12 externally on my 75 as the return pump, no issues. It was a bit tricky to get rid of some slow leaks (since I had overtightened before and cracked some plastic), but it's been running just fine. Had to switch to running external because the power cord got nicked and there was no way I was going to run that internal anymore.

 

FWIW, I'm building a mixing station as well. Going to run a Reeflo Snapper for mixing pump. From a few forums I read, it's not really possible to go overkill on flow in your mixing station. You want to really mix up that salt when you run it, so better to have tons of flow to keep the salt suspended until it disolves than have to wait forever and deal with undissolved salt mix.

 

I'm also running 1.5 inch lines for everything in the mixing station, since that's the output of the Snapper. Depending on the pump you choose and it's output pipe diameter, that's what I would go with for plumbing the mixing station. Just my 2 cents.

[Steve G]

On 2/9/2020 at 11:13 AM, Steve G said:

This what I plan to use for a sump. It’s a used 100 gallon reef ready acrylic tank. I’ll cap the bulkheads and clean up the coralline (which my 8 year old daughter calls coral vomit). Question is whether I can/should trim the euro bracing to get better access.

Updates coming. First, let's check in on that sump after I cleaned it up, removed the corner overflows, plugged the holes, and added baffles. I am not very experienced with acrylic welding or cutting acrylic, so I did a poor job and had to add silicone and it's a bit of a mess. Over time I'll probably get leakage around the sides or bottom of the baffles but I'm not sure it's worth completely re-doing.

 

 

[Steve G]

On 6/9/2020 at 1:24 PM, Steve G said:

I've thought about a remote refugium but I'm fine with it being in one chamber in the sump sitting under the stand. There should be plenty of room. I have plans for most of the rest of the room. I want a work bench/desk, fridge/freezer, dehumidifer, and an elevated tank to use as QT.

 

For example, the water-changing station will take up quite a bit of space. Here is a shot of it right now. I have a lot of plumbing to do still. That's my next project. I'm not very experienced at hard plumbing, but will try to follow all the online examples. I'm already starting to regret the types of fittings I've bought. hard to decide whether fittings should be threaded or slip, whether valves should be standard issue ball valves that Home Depot sells for $4 or fancy true union cepex ones that BRS sells for like $28 each.

 

Also, I bought all 1" plumbing but now that feels like overkill but I don't know if it's worth trying to return dozens of parts to two or three different stores to switch to 3/4".  Edited: I should be fine with 1" pipe. I just need to adapt the 3/4" pump outlet on the mag drive.

 

Finally, I have a blueline 2000 and two mag 12 pumps. I was thinking maybe just use the two mags one for the return and one for the water station but not sure.  Some say the mag drive should not be run externally (which is what I need for the water station). The blueline is probably overkill for the water station. It will sit about two feet away from the sump so head pressure is not a concern.

 

 

Here's the update, now that I've plumbed and tested the water mixing station. Since I took this picture I've added a quick disconnect fitting and a 10' hose.

 

 

 

[Steve G]

Some other major developments:

The tank arrived.

The stand is done.

The construction on the fish room has started. Walls opened up, trench for the floor drain is dug.

[Steve G]

Photos to go with previous update. The part I am most excited about is the floor drain. THe one in the pic is too small. We're going with a 5' long drain with an easily accessible cleanout.

 

Also, we found some load-bearing beams that we now have to bypass. This will take more time and money that we thought. Spending all that money that would have gone toward a vacation this year (and maybe next year's too)