multiple dartfish schools

[treesprite]

Does anyone here have schools of multiple types of dartfish?

 

I want to have another firefish school of maybe 7 when I set up my 120, plus a school of another dartfish species, or maybe even have 3 schools if folks think it would work in a 120. I know to plan out my rockwork very carefully to accommodate groups of these fish, especially the firefish. I also know to cover the tank better so the fish don't all carpet surf.

 

I would like to have blue gudgeons because they are really pretty fish the way they shimmer and change color in the lights and shadows. I tried to keep them a couple different times years ago just as a single and a pair, but they mostly hid and ultimately starved (they were in a 65g tank - only 3 feet long - with a very aggressive pair of tomato clowns). I think in a group of 6 or 7 they would be bold enough to eat, at least as long as the other fish aren't terrorists in a short tank. I need to hear more hobbyist experiences about keeping them as a group, and about keeping a group of them with a group of other dartfish.

 

I had a scissortail dartfish when I had the firefish group, and there wasn't any problem (that I know of) between the two species, but maybe firefish in a group just don't worry about a lone scissortail.

 

Definate fish tankmates would be my ocellaris clown pair and a future yellow zebramosa tang. Tentative fish are the two yellowtail damsels I already have, and maybe a future bristletooth tang if I only do 2 dartfish schools.

 

This inquiry is with the assumption that I get this 120 running sometime in this lifetime. It's certainly taking a long time.

Edited November 1, 2016 by treesprite

[treesprite]

I also need to know order of introduction. My assumption without hearing other people's experience or looking stuff up elsewhere, is that firefish are the boldest and blue gudgeons are the most timid, with scissortails in the middle.

 

Thanks in advance for info and advise.

[sethsolomon]

This is a cool idea.  Some things they need are lots of hidey holes and such.   I recommend making PVC "cave systems" and bury them in the sand.  This will allow them to have many premade homes and a way for you to target feed them if they don't eat off the bat.  I would start with 3-4 Bar gobies as these are the easiest to get to eat of the gungens.   Then I would add however many blue gungens you would want to add. If they don't eat right off the bat they will learn quickly from the bar gobies.  Then the Scissor tails, and then firefish.  Firefish order by type of timidness - Most timid -->  Helfrichi, purple, red  <---least timid.  

 

You are going to need to pick a diet that is on the smaller side as dart fish dont have the mouths to eat 1-2mm pellets.  I would go with a Pacific Krill and 0.5mm sinking pellet diet for primary feeding.  And occasionally mix in some cyclopeeze/cyclops.

 

 

Fish I would stay away from keeping with a dartfish school like this:

Damsels (Clowns may be ok if they have an anemone to host on a far side, no carpet or riteri nems.)

Pseudochromis

dottybacks

any predatory fish

[treesprite]

Thanks Seth.

 

Just to clarify:

 

What I am looking for is information on keeping multiple schools of multiple species of dartfish specifically in a 120 gallon sized tank. What I already have is experience and knowledge for the requirements and care of dartfish, and experience of already having kept a school of firefish without the in-fighting people often experience and assume.

 

This includes, but is not limited to, considerations for:

 

- the size of the tank, given that dartfish are lower water column and bottom dwellers, having a requirement more focused on surface area than depth; I would like to find a way to make a higher level that is capable of maintaining a sand cover, because this would increase the liveable surface area giving the equivalent of a larger tank (I've wanted to do this for years, but did not have a wide enough tank; expect a future thread on it now that I have a tank that is 2 feet wide)

 

- the number and size of the schools; I plan on 6 or 7 of each species, and probably 2 schools (I imagine 3 would be overboard, but maybe could do just a pair of N. Decora for the purple color, since I can't keep an orchid dottyback with firefish... they are very peaceful fish, but they are shaped like firefish and when I had them together before, there was a big problem)

 

- the social behavior between groups of species (not individual specimens), including the order of addition; my guess is that blue gudgeons are more timid than firefish, thus would have to go in first, but I'm not sure about scissortails or zebras

 

- the potential interaction between "an individual that is part of a group" and single individual tankmates that are not dartfish; the fact that fish that are in a group are usually bolder and less intimidated by other fish, might give more options, though the only definite mates would be an ocellaris pair and yellow tang, but I have a couple yellowtail damsels that probably will get left out of this tank

 

- any other considerations, personal experiences including the aethetics

[treesprite]

I wasn't even thinking about flow. Any ideas on whether or not I should use a closed loop with all the dartfish? The tank is drilled for it, but I never fully decided whether or not to use it.

[sethsolomon]

I wasn't even thinking about flow. Any ideas on whether or not I should use a closed loop with all the dartfish? The tank is drilled for it, but I never fully decided whether or not to use it.

If you are going to do closed loop, make sure your intake is higher up. this will keep the intake away from where dart fish like to hang out at.   But if not closed loop i would probably do a gyre.

[sethsolomon]

also is this a 4ft 120 or a 5ft 120?

[treesprite]

It's 4 ft x 2 ft.

 

The closed loop holes are in the center area of the back wall. There will be a drain cover, of course.

[sethsolomon]

- the size of the tank, given that dartfish are lower water column and bottom dwellers, having a requirement more focused on surface area than depth; I would like to find a way to make a higher level that is capable of maintaining a sand cover, because this would increase the liveable surface area giving the equivalent of a larger tank (I've wanted to do this for years, but did not have a wide enough tank; expect a future thread on it now that I have a tank that is 2 feet wide)

 

 

If you have groups of dartfish they won't be bottom dwellers as this behavior forms from too many other fish picking on them and they needing to be in a safe area.

 

 

- the number and size of the schools; I plan on 6 or 7 of each species, and probably 2 schools (I imagine 3 would be overboard, but maybe could do just a pair of N. Decora for the purple color, since I can't keep an orchid dottyback with firefish... they are very peaceful fish, but they are shaped like firefish and when I had them together before, there was a big problem)

 

 

With a 4 ft tank there really won't be separate schools.  They will most likely just form a single school.  As for aggression between red and purple firefish, If you do a hodgepodge school of all kinds of dartfish, There shouldn't be any specific aggression between species assuming there are homes/ territory for each fish.  I strongly recommend making one of these for each 1-2 of your dartfish you're going to keep:

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/172053-diy-jawfish-house/?p=2548748

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/267435-diy-jawfish-house/?p=3302644

http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/blue-spotted-jawfish-experts-sound-off.237018/#post-2765575

 

As for stocking order, I would start with the Ptereleotris genus first as these are more on finicky side.

 

 

And for another option for a purple dartfish, Ptereleotris helenae is a nice purple gundgen. It's a little harder to find but I bet Marco could track 2-3 of them down for you. 

 

 

- the social behavior between groups of species (not individual specimens), including the order of addition; my guess is that blue gudgeons are more timid than firefish, thus would have to go in first, but I'm not sure about scissortails or zebras

 

Ptereleotris genus dartfish are more timid than Nemateleotris genus dartfish.  The approach I would take, would be set up 3-4 10g QT tanks and get in all the Ptereleotris genus dartfish you want to keep.  The put all of them into the 120g at the same time.  This will reduce aggression across the board if there will even be any aggression.  And then do the same thing with the Nemateleotris genus dartfish in a second wave.

 

As for behavior for scissor tails and zebras, I have only seen aggression in small groups 2-4 fish groups. when in groups of 5 or greater I have never seen any aggression.  So adding them all together as a group should eliminate that problem.

 

 

- the potential interaction between "an individual that is part of a group" and single individual tankmates that are not dartfish; the fact that fish that are in a group are usually bolder and less intimidated by other fish, might give more options, though the only definite mates would be an ocellaris pair and yellow tang, but I have a couple yellowtail damsels that probably will get left out of this tank

 

 

The only possible problems I see with the other fish part is the damsels and clownfish.  having these territorial fish will severely limit the area the darts have access to.

 

The Yellow tang should fit in fine assuming it's still small and not >4"  they can get a bit aggressive when they get larger in a 4 ft tank.

 

- any other considerations, personal experiences including the aethetics

 

If it were me setting up this tank,

 

I would do  5 Zebras, 5 blue gundgens, 5 scissor tails, 5 Ptereleotris helenae/5 purple firefish, 5 red Firefish.  

And If you can find them, I would add any of the following:

• Parioglossus winterbottomi
• Ptereleotris trifecta
• Ptereleotris grammica
• Ptereleotris heteroptera 

I would not do more than 30 in a 120g accounting for just the yellow tang as the other fish.  And rehoming the clownfish and damsels.

[treesprite]

Thanks Seth. I have to differ with some information about dartfish. They ARE bottom dwellers because of the substrate; most will not use holes that are do not have sand on the bottom, and therefore stay in the lower half of the tank. If a dartfish is ever high in the water column far from its usual lair, it is because it is afraid of something or sick. A sandy loft would essentially raise the floor of the tank, so the fish being higher in the water column won't seem like it's higher up to the fish who wants to feel like it can get away from threats quickly.

 

Since you strayed a bit off topic with the tang, I will address it only to say that not all 4 ft long tanks are narrow 55s, and not all tanks are aquascaped with walls and mounds. Swim trails have to be created through aquascaping, and a well aquascaped 4 ft tank is better suited to a tang than a 5 ft tank with only one or two sections of rock without multiple options for swimming routes so the fish doesn't have to swim the same path all day long. Should a fish have to swim back and forth all day in a 6 ft tank, or would it prefer choosing every trip between 8 different potential continuous paths in a 4 ft tank that has multiple tunnels (not caves), overhangs, and turns, where it never has to feel like it is at a dead end? Editing to say that was a hypothetical question, not intended to actually be answered in a thread about dartfish.

Edited November 3, 2016 by treesprite

[treesprite]

FYI, I have been e-mailing back and forth a few times with WetWeb Media (specifically Bob Fenner) about the dartfish, after having posted info in this thread. Whatever info I already had given here was confirmed in that way, but of course everyone has different experiences and knowledge bases, so I need to hear from multiple sources. Doing what is basically a dartfish tank is a somewhat big undertaking, so I want to start out fully prepared.

[treesprite]

Couldn't I put seahorses or pipefish with dartfish, if I leave out my clowns?

[khh27]

The dartfish would out compete the seahorses for food unless you feed the seahorses some special way

 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[treesprite]

I'm just thinking about the seahorse presentation from Frag Fest. People are keeping sea horses in regular tanks with various kinds of fish. Dartfish are not usually aggressive eaters.

[treesprite]

I forgot about the fact that I can't have euphyllia corals with sea horses....

[treesprite]

I forgot about this video I have on Youtube