Controling Nitrates

[aquamom]

Hi all! So, I wanted to run a question by you all about controlling my nitrates in my 60 g FOWLR. My husband set up our tank probably more than a year ago with LR donated from a friend who tore down his tank so I'm not 100% certain how much we have in there but I would guess not quite enough. I would guess around 50 lbs. I do plan on ordering some dry rock from reefcleaners.org pretty soon to add in. So, the system has absolutely no space in the crappy Petco stand for a sump but I hope to build another stand in the near future and add a sump to the system. This did not start out as my setup or a major interest to me, however, my husband's health has declined since he set it up and his interest has waned almost completely and mine has risen to borderline obsession. We have an Aquamaxx HOB protein skimmer and a Marineland HOB with biowheels currently. I have been changing out the filter cartridges every couple of weeks and trying to clean them out every few days as well. My nitrates were over 100 when I finally got Salifert nitrate test in to check it last week. Since this didn't start out as my hobby I have been slowly learning all that I need to keep up with (hence ordering the tests I needed). I have done about 3 15 gallon WC's this past week using RODI water and its at about 35ppm now. Last night I just removed both filter cartridges and left the HOB running with just the biowheels to see if this makes any impact. I have also reduced feeding of pellets and frozen mysis and added in live black worms per Paul B's recommendations. Lol. I have a percula clown, two yellow tailed damsels and a small sailfin tang (please don't slaughter me, I know I will be trading it in very soon, newbie mistake) a purple lobster, fire shrimp, emerald crab and some snails and hermits. 

 

My main question is, until the time I am able to add a sump does anyone have any recommendations of the use of my HOB filter? Is it helping or hurting at this point? 

 

I thank you in advance for any advice you all can give me! I'm sure I'm missing quite a bit of pertinent information but let me know what else you may need to know and I'll post it. Thanks so much!

[Fireshrimp]

Hello, and happy holidays to you. It really sounds like you are on the right path. As you know already, your hob filter is just not large enough to handle your bioload. Cleaning the filter media and doing large water changes is really a must if you are going to get the nitrates down. Since this a fowlr tank you can have higher nitrates to no harm to the inhabitants. Try to keep them where they are. More live rock should be your next step. However, don't add too much too fast. It will start a mini cycle unless you get it locally and know for sure it is cured. How does the skimmer produce? Hopefully it is making lots of dark gunky skimmate. This helps to lower the organics, thus lowering or at least stabilizing the nitrates. You didn't mention if you have a powerhead to help release trapped detritus.

[aquamom]

Hello, and happy holidays to you. It really sounds like you are on the right path. As you know already, your hob filter is just not large enough to handle your bioload. Cleaning the filter media and doing large water changes is really a must if you are going to get the nitrates down. Since this a fowlr tank you can have higher nitrates to no harm to the inhabitants. Try to keep them where they are. More live rock should be your next step. However, don't add too much too fast. It will start a mini cycle unless you get it locally and know for sure it is cured. How does the skimmer produce? Hopefully it is making lots of dark gunky skimmate. This helps to lower the organics, thus lowering or at least stabilizing the nitrates. You didn't mention if you have a powerhead to help release trapped detritus.

Thanks so much for the response! I do have two powerheads, I know the one an Aqueon 950 and I'm not so sure about the other one. Maybe an Aquaclear? Puts out quite a bit of circulation though. Do you think I'd be better off removing the biowheels and media altogether? 

 

Thanks again for the response!

[seanoli]

If you're getting dry rock, you might consider soaking it in RODI for a week or two--change the water at least once--to remove any phosphates or other stuff that might be in the rock.

[aquamom]

If you're getting dry rock, you might consider soaking it in RODI for a week or two--change the water at least once--to remove any phosphates or other stuff that might be in the rock.

Ok, will do! Thanks for the input.

[Fireshrimp]

Do not remove the media. This is helping as long as you are changing it at every two weeks. As far as the bioballs, every 6 to 8 weeks you should rinse in clean saltwater to get rid of the nasties, but keep the good bacteria. Your setup is not the optimum, but can be used if you keep up on water changes and maintenance. Many first tanks started out this way.

[aquamom]

Do not remove the media. This is helping as long as you are changing it at every two weeks. As far as the bioballs, every 6 to 8 weeks you should rinse in clean saltwater to get rid of the nasties, but keep the good bacteria. Your setup is not the optimum, but can be used if you keep up on water changes and maintenance. Many first tanks started out this way.

Ok I'll do that then. You are awesome for helping me out!

 

Dana

 

 

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[Fireshrimp]

Dana, I want to clarify my previous posting. Yes, you can have higher nitrates, but don't think you can have them off the chart. If you strive for lower than your 35ppm you will see tremendous growth in corralline, which is always prettier than "just rocks". Plus your nuisance algae will disappear. Continue with the water changes, cleaning the filter etc.

What media are you running?

[aquamom]

Dana, I want to clarify my previous posting. Yes, you can have higher nitrates, but don't think you can have them off the chart. If you strive for lower than your 35ppm you will see tremendous growth in corralline, which is always prettier than "just rocks". Plus your nuisance algae will disappear. Continue with the water changes, cleaning the filter etc.

What media are you running?

 

Yes I'm trying to get them as low as I can. I have been running the regular

filter cartridges with carbon in the HOB filter and just started running GFO. I was thinking of picking up some poly filter and changing it out for that and trying to add some Marine Pure somewhere as well.

 

 

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[aquamom]

Thanks again

 

 

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[Fireshrimp]

Sounds good trying to get poly filter. That stuff is amazing! I use it regularly. I'm not a big fan of the already made up filter cartridges, they usually use an inferior brand of carbon, that can actually add more things into your water...phosphates etc. Marine pure isn't something I have used, so can't help you there.

[aquamom]

Sounds good trying to get poly filter. That stuff is amazing! I use it regularly. I'm not a big fan of the already made up filter cartridges, they usually use an inferior brand of carbon, that can actually add more things into your water...phosphates etc. Marine pure isn't something I have used, so can't help you there.

I hope the poly filter is an upgrade. Do you put it in your sump? I saw some reviews on the Marine Pure and it seems like really a good product. Lots of surface area. I will be doing another water change tomorrow so I'll let you know if it seems to bring the nitrates down some more.

 

 

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[Fireshrimp]

The nice thing about poly filter, is you can cut, bend,stuff wherever water can pass through it. I would take one of your cartridges out and cut one to fit the area. Otherwise there should be room to slide one in front of the cartridge, so that the water goes through the poly filter last. I have also been reading about the Marine Pure, does seem to have advantages, but I'm not sure I would use it in my reef. I am very old school, and if it ain't broke, don't fix.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Fireshrimp

[Rob A]

The biowheels won't do anything for your nitrates. They will help with the beginning stages of biofiltration using aerobic bacteria to convert waste and ammonia to nitrites and then nitrites to nitrates. To get rid of the nitrates you need anearobic bacteria, which is typically found in the lower/deeper parts of your sand bed and the deeper holes of your live rocks, places which are lacking in oxygen. The surface of the rocks and the surface of the sand bed handle the first stages (like the biowheels) where oxygen in the water column can reach the aerobic bacteria. The cartridge sections of your HOB can be useful for the mechanical filtration-the more solids that are removed from the water, the less stuff there is to breakdown and make more nitrates-but if you don't keep the filter pads clean then they just became another source of nitrates.

So the trick is to have the right amount of aerobic bacteria (fairly easy-sand and live rock) anaerobic bacteria area (not as easy- sand bed, live rock), right amount of fish, right amount of food, some mechanical filtration to remove debris (not required), protein skimmer to remove organics before they break down, and then once you get a sump you can add some macro algae and maybe some mangrove plants. I have never had great success at figuring out the balance so I dose with vodka, which is capable of bringing your nitrates to zero, although it can take awhile to get to zero depending on how your levels are initially.

A FOWLR tank can have higher levels of nitrates than a tank with corals but if you continue to have troubles with nitrates, you can manage it to some extent with weekly water changes.  Since your tank is only 60 gallons, even a 20 gallon / 33% water change will only cost just under $5 a week based on the cost of salt (200 gal box for approx. $45).

 

So to answer your question, you might not really need the HOB/biowheel combo if you have enough rock and sand. One way you can find out is to get an ammonia test kit and take one of the biowheels off line, and check for an ammonia spike each day for a week or so. If you don't have a spike, then take the other one off line and keep checking for a week. If you don't have an ammonia spike then your current level of rock and sand is handling the biofiltration. Then it's just a matter as to whether or not you want the mechanical filtration from the HOB unit. Most people don't use them for saltwater so it's okay if you don't use them-assuming you pass the ammonia test. The HOB is also creating an oxygen exchange by disturbing the surface of the water, and you need that, but your skimmer should be able to handle that on its own. Once you have a sump there will be even more oxygen exchange by the cascading water in the drain lines, etc.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Rob A

[aquamom]

The biowheels won't do anything for your nitrates. They will help with the beginning stages of biofiltration using aerobic bacteria to convert waste and ammonia to nitrites and then nitrites to nitrates. To get rid of the nitrates you need anearobic bacteria, which is typically found in the lower/deeper parts of your sand bed and the deeper holes of your live rocks, places which are lacking in oxygen. The surface of the rocks and the surface of the sand bed handle the first stages (like the biowheels) where oxygen in the water column can reach the aerobic bacteria. The cartridge sections of your HOB can be useful for the mechanical filtration-the more solids that are removed from the water, the less stuff there is to breakdown and make more nitrates-but if you don't keep the filter pads clean then they just became another source of nitrates.

So the trick is to have the right amount of aerobic bacteria (fairly easy-sand and live rock) anaerobic bacteria area (not as easy- sand bed, live rock), right amount of fish, right amount of food, some mechanical filtration to remove debris (not required), protein skimmer to remove organics before they break down, and then once you get a sump you can add some macro algae and maybe some mangrove plants. I have never had great success at figuring out the balance so I dose with vodka, which is capable of bringing your nitrates to zero, although it can take awhile to get to zero depending on how your levels are initially.

A FOWLR tank can have higher levels of nitrates than a tank with corals but if you continue to have troubles with nitrates, you can manage it to some extent with weekly water changes. Since your tank is only 60 gallons, even a 20 gallon / 33% water change will only cost just under $5 a week based on the cost of salt (200 gal box for approx. $45).

 

So to answer your question, you might not really need the HOB/biowheel combo if you have enough rock and sand. One way you can find out is to get an ammonia test kit and take one of the biowheels off line, and check for an ammonia spike each day for a week or so. If you don't have a spike, then take the other one off line and keep checking for a week. If you don't have an ammonia spike then your current level of rock and sand is handling the biofiltration. Then it's just a matter as to whether or not you want the mechanical filtration from the HOB unit. Most people don't use them for saltwater so it's okay if you don't use them-assuming you pass the ammonia test. The HOB is also creating an oxygen exchange by disturbing the surface of the water, and you need that, but your skimmer should be able to handle that on its own. Once you have a sump there will be even more oxygen exchange by the cascading water in the drain lines, etc.

Ok thanks. I will do the ammonia test. Thank you for all your great experience!!

 

 

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[Sad Panda]

Since So many people have already been soooooo nice to me here I will ask Aquamom a question. First are you in the Virginia area. I ask Because I have a stand that my 55g tank it on that is 52" long and 20" wide that I custom built. I have a 35g self built sump under it. I am upgrading to a 180g and this stand I have will not work for that. I you are interested I would be willing to give you the stand (free). I just cant drive long distances. If this may work and you are interested let me know. Only thing is I will not be ready to move it until I have my new tank set up and running which may be one to one and a half months. I will try to figure out how to post a pic of it here.

 

Also if I don't answer for a day or two its because I work long hours and may not see this post for a bit. People here have been helping me so I want to pass it on to others.

[aquamom]

Since So many people have already been soooooo nice to me here I will ask Aquamom a question. First are you in the Virginia area. I ask Because I have a stand that my 55g tank it on that is 52" long and 20" wide that I custom built. I have a 35g self built sump under it. I am upgrading to a 180g and this stand I have will not work for that. I you are interested I would be willing to give you the stand (free). I just cant drive long distances. If this may work and you are interested let me know. Only thing is I will not be ready to move it until I have my new tank set up and running which may be one to one and a half months. I will try to figure out how to post a pic of it here.

 

Also if I don't answer for a day or two its because I work long hours and may not see this post for a bit. People here have been helping me so I want to pass it on to others.

 

Hi Sad Panda! I'm not in the area but my best friend loves over that way so I always look for excuses to visit her. That is an incredibly kind and generous offer!!! Thank you so much! I would love to inherit that!!! I'm so grateful !! Where are you located in Virginia?

 

Again, thank you!!!

 

Dana (ps I live in Easton, Maryland

 

 

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[aquamom]

And she lives not loves in Virginia! Lol, in Chantilly/Centreville area

 

 

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[Sad Panda]

I live in Culpeper. But as I posted it will not be empty for 1 to 2 months as I transition to the new tank. But if you send me a note to remind me in a while it is yours. (I have a ton of things on my mind).

[khh27]

Edit

 

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Edited January 18, 2016 by khh27

[aquamom]

Ok thanks so much. If you were able to send a pic so I can get an idea that would be awesome.

 

 

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[aquamom]

Ok no problem. I'll try to message you in a month or so to see how your upgrade is going.

 

 

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