Quarantine Tank

[Guest baygl]

Hello -

 

I understand the reasons for a quarantine tank as mentioned here:

 

From AquariaUSA posting on Sept 18, 2003 in pH Levels thread in New to the Hobby Forum:

On another note... true/effective quarantine processes should be far longer than a few days to a week. Reason? Any fish that is not DOA can hang in there for a few days swimming about a tank, eating a little, etc. Some think that if a fish does not have "ick" or visible signs of distress or disease that they must be "ok." However, after many years working with various retailers, a wholesaler/biologist, aquariums, and with our own client stock we really believe in full quarantine, so as not to infect a successful system with a new addition we have only had for a week. Those that put their fish through a serious quarantine process (not to knock MS, for they can't afford to go longer with fish I presume after Toms post, and most retailers won't even mention quarantine) will attest to this, especially with delicate species like wild caught Kauderns/Bengaii's.

 

But, I have some concerns and questions about myself, as a new person to the hobby, setting up a quarantine tank.

 

I'm just learning about this hobby, trying to figure out how to manage the water chemistry and such.  I chose a larger tank (65 gal) because I was told it is more forgiving than the smaller tank I'd originally thought I'd start with, and I'm having issues with getting the pH correct.  I'd hate to make a mistake with my quarantine tank and kill my fish that I'm trying to make sure are healthy!  Or worse, I'd hate to stress out the fish for a couple weeks in suboptimal conditions then put them in the display tank where they have to adjust to the new environment with the other fish.

 

Another thing about quarantine tanks that has alwayed confused me is how to keep the water clean.  In the display tank that I just set up, I've gone to great pains to get a good filtration system so that my fish can survive.  Obviously I won't have that in a quarantine tank.  So how do I keep the ammonia levels down in that tank?!

 

So, of the following two options, which is the lowest risk at this point and how do I make it as low as possible:  

1)  Buy my livestock from a store that I believe has sound quarantine practices and try to buy fish that have been there for a couple weeks and are eating.  

2)  Set up a quarantine tank to the best of my knowledge.

 

I'd welcome any ideas and suggestions on this issue.

 

Gail

[Grav]

For a newbie (if that is what you really are ;o) you have a very good understanding of the positives and negatives of QT.  

 

A few other things to consider:

 

Value of (both $ and personnal attachment to) the current tank population.  For example, no need to put your 1st fish into a QT. Also a $75 fish in QT, risking stress from poor filtration, or small space while 2 $5 damsels swim in a 65g seems silly.  

 

If you have fish only, and MAY add inverts later, you COULD treat the main tank... another reason QT wouldn't be needed.  Take care here, from what I gather copper can stay with a tank for a long time.

 

Sinking $ and effort into a QT tank, while still working getting your 65g cycled is extra stuff you may not need to do now. You will have time and more desire for a QT when you are risking more (like $500 in fish already in the main tank) a  year or so from now.

 

The only case of Ick I have ever had came months after a new addition and was, of course, due to fish stress.  I did have a 5g tank running at that time, and tried to convert it to a QT to tread with hyposalinity... sadly the tank change proved enough to puch the patient over the edge.

[AquariaUSA]

Few suggestions on sterile quarantine below

 

1) If you buy a fish to go under quarantine prior to placing into your main exhibit...use the same water from the main exhibit to quarantine the fish. When you do the water change on the 65, siphon the water into the quarantine (20 gallon or larger). If hyposalinity is desired lower the salinity in the quarantine every 6-12 hours by .001 to .002 to be safe if fish is not too far gone. Maintaining water quality is an issue, but partial water changes should help here every 3-4 days. Idea is to try your best to keep the quarantine water parameters as close to the main tank as possible, for the end result places the specimen in the main tank (looking to lower stress as much as possible).

 

2) Equipment for quarantine: Tank, glass canopy, good submersible heater, powerhead (sponge attachment helps) and/or small power filter (w/o carbon). Few plastic plants or some sort of shelter. Skimmer would be great, for some meds require the use (Kent RxP, Rally, etc.) Try not to use substrate in a sterile quarantine environment, for most meds will bind to substrate, and you would have to throw out between uses.

 

3) Meds for quarantine (so many out there, but may be hard to find so listed the basics) Melafix, Maracyn2 SW, Maracyn SW, Paraguard, Nitrofuran, Beta Glucan (see Adv Aquarist article this month). etc. Forgo the use of copper as long as you can, for this IMO is just a stressful on most fish as the parasites are.

 

4) Quarantine process length should be determined per species (captive vs. wild), hardier species, etc.

 

5) Corals CAN bring in disease, especially Vibrio sp. and several bacteriums. This is something to consider as well. I have seen a few posts about Melafix curbing "brown jelly" and RTN although I have not personally experimented with it yet. Hard for me to believe though for it is an Aquarium pHarmaceuticals product sold at Petsmart, etc.

[Guest baygl]

Great, thanks for your thoughts and information on quarantine.  It helps to have my thoughts confirmed and to get a better idea of what I'll need when I do get to the point of needing one.  That may be sooner than I expected.  I sure am getting attached to my little clown fish with their cute personalities!  

 

And now I've got a sick neon gobie.  He's been in the tank since August 19th, added when there were only two clown fish in the tank.  Sunday before last, the 14th, I'd noticed a couple white spots on him.  He was eating, his gills weren't splaying out and he didn't seem to be struggling to breathe.  I still wanted to do something about it but as I suspected, I couldn't catch him.  I didn't chase him knowing that would stress him out but he still must have felt the pressure.  

 

The folks at the Marine Scene said it could be from stress since I'd just added three fish the previous Tuesday (bringing the population up to 7 fish in the tank).  They suggested I try a garlic supplement so I purchased Kent Marine's Garlic Extreme.  Shewee does that stuff smell.  The fish got two drops of it on their food twice a day and the neon goby seemed to have cleared up fairly quickly.  Can't believe I didn't log things better -- I'm not sure when he looked clear.  And then, it was a super busy week and weekend so I missed the garlic a couple times which I thought was just as well because it seemed so potent that I didn't think it should be added every single feeding.  I planned on checking on that.  But then yesterday evening, the goby looked a mess with white spots all over.  He still has quite the appetite and seems to have normal behavior.  

 

So, I started the garlic up again.  I am guessing that the attempt to catch him when he was starting to get sick as well as the stress of the high pH were major factors causing this (my pH test kit was saying 7.7 but I just learned from a pH meter that it is actually 8.6).   I'd done a water change for the pH problem and when my new pH meter comes in day after tomorrow, I'll test the water and do another change if it is still high.  So far, the other fish don't seem affected.  

 

I'm just now getting a chance to hit the books about it.  Marine Scene was closed today but I'll call to see what they say tomorrow.  Any ideas / suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

 

baygl

[ReefMon]

We'd need some more info on your tank to help.

 

IMO, ick is caused by stress, stress can be from inappropriate/aggressive tank mates, overstocking, water quality issues, etc.

 

The more info we have on your set-up, the easier for us to pinpoint any issues.

 

What are the other occupants of the tank?

 

Was anything added after the neon goby?

 

Amount of live rock?

 

Skimmer?

 

Lighting?

 

Water flow?

 

specific gravity and method of testing?

 

min & max temp's?

 

Ammonia?

 

Nitrates?

 

Nitrites?

 

Amount and what type of food being feed?

 

Any other additives added to the system?

 

If it's aggression from other fishes, you may want to do a quick rearrangement of your live rock, as it will mix up their territories lessening any territorial squabbles.

 

Although theres no proof that garlic works, I believe it causes the fish to secrete more slime, making it harder for the Ick to attach to the fish.  Heavy feeding also seems to help.

 

As for a Q tank, a 10 gal with a aquaclear type hang on filter, a small power head, light & heater is all you need, as long as you do regular water changes (like twice a day if needed, and I always use water from an established tank).  But, catching a sick fish in a reef is usually more stressful than than helpful.

 

Hope this helps

Glenn R

[Guest baygl]

Okay, here goes:

 

I have a 65 gallon tank with built in overflow.  It has power compact lighting -- an actinic and a 10000K that are the length of the cap.  I had temp issues with it being around 84 degrees F so I mounted a temp controlled fan in the cap and one in the sump area.  In the sump I have a Turboflotor skimmer with the two pumps it needs and a Mag pump to get the water up top.  That causes strong flow across and down to the bottom of the tank at the front.  There's a PowerHagen 802 in the back opposite corner of the overflow causing flow of water across that.  I just learned that air up top wasn't good and removed the air intake tube from that powerhead.  It occasionally puts out a burst of bubbles which I need to stop.

 

Timeline:

Mid June:           77 lbs of live rock

Early July:           32 lbs of live rock

Late July - Early Aug:  (added in different batches)

                        ~40 snails

                        ~40 hermit crabs

                              brittle star

                              other kind of star

                               Mithrax (is that right?) crab

                              Sally Lightfoot crab

Sat, Aug 16:     2 Percula Clowns (Nemo and Nemette)

Tues, Aug 19:     Neon Goby (Moxy)

                       Bangaii Cardinal (he disappeared the following week, tho there were never signs of distress that I could recognize and he was eating)

Fri, Aug 22:         Royal Gramma (Di)

                        (I think I got the arrow crab at this time -- bristle worms were starting to be visible more often than I cared for)

Tues, Sept 9:      Purple Firefish (Kate)

                        Pygmy Angel (Indigo)

                        Rosy Blenny (Burt)

 

Food:  Frozen fish cubes (will need to check my log book for the name).  Half a cube a day once a day until I added the last three and now I feed half a cube twice a day.  I also bought a couple shrimp from Giant and made my own frozen little cubes that I feed on occasion.

 

Chemistry:  Ammonia = 0, Nitrites = 0-0.01,  Nitrates = 0.5 ppm,   alkalinity ~15.4 dKH, specific gravity 1.020 tested using Deep Six hydrometer, pH 8.6, temp range 78-82 degrees F, Ca++ ~250 ppm.  I've been working on getting the specific gravity up as it had gotten down to ~1.015.  And of course I'm working on getting the pH down, having done a big water change Sunday after getting that reading of 8.6.

 

Additives:  I just learned that whereas I was testing the pH to be 7.7 using a Salifert kit, a meter indicated it was 8.6.  I have a meter on order to be delivered tomorrow so haven't been able to see how the the water change Sunday affected the pH.  Over the last month and a half, I'd been adding Marine Buffer to solve what I thougth was a pH problem.

 

Tank Interactions:

I've seen Sally (the Sally Lightfoot) swiping at the fish on occasion and when I added the last three fish, the Gramma made ugly faces at the Pygmy Angelfish and the Purple Firefish.  That seemed to have stopped after the first day but I just saw it approach the Firefish last weekend and make faces again.   The Firefish didn't seem too concerned.  The Pygmy Angelfish is shy but can be seen regularly now.  The Neon Goby has been trying to clean the Clownfish who don't seem to appreciate the attention -- they just kind-of shake it off.  Those three stick together a lot (goby and clownfish) and always come out to the middle of the tank or up to the glass, peering at me (saying feed us!) when I'm peering at them.

 

So, according to Moe, I have to get all the fish out and have the tank fishless for a month - or - live with disease from now on.  According to Tullock, quarantine, quarantine, quarantine.  Sigh...  Even if I pull all the rocks out, I wouldn't be able to catch the goby until it is well on the way to dying.  The clownfishes would be easy to catch but none of the others.

 

baygl

[Guest andrejka]

Hi Gail,

 

I understand your frustration.  We want to set up a "perfect reef", and when pathogen is introduced there, our first move is to "clean" the system, get rid of the "contaminant". The truth is - no matter how diligent one is in quarantine procedure (although I'm all for quarantining), ick is present in most/every aquarium.  When everything is OK, fish will fight it off naturally.

 

The reasons I see for your ick "outbreak" are:

 

1) System is still "young".

 

2) Too many fishes too soon (last three were introduced simultaneously, and first ones just 3 days apart; none was quarantined).

 

3) Less than perfect water quality.

 

You are on the right way trying to correct water parameters first.  Nothing compares to a good water change in this aspect.  Keep doing them.

 

Do not add any more fish for a couple of months, let existing ones to establish their territories, "settle in".  

 

Feed variety of foods and as often as you can (3-4 times a day in small portions; even if feedings are separated by an hour, two smaller feedings will be better than a bigger one).

 

If you are desperate to help the fish to fight off ick (without removing it from the tank) - install a PROPERLY sized UV sterilizer (this can be an expensive option):  

UV sterilizer

 

Good luck!

 

P.S. Buy HEALTHY livestock from places you trust (you should not see dead or heavily infested fish in dealers tanks).

[AquariaUSA]

Andrey is on target with the ick issue! EVERY system does indeed have ick and a host of other parasites, bacteriums, etc. Stress causes the fish to contract it, and it is a pain in the arse to get rid of sometimes.

 

Check out the recent article on BetaFlucan in AdvancedAquarist.com in strengthening fish immune systems (similar to garlic, but looks a bit more Rx).

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2003/feature.htm

 

UVs are great to have, although they will not keep your fish from contracting ick...they merely cleanse the water that passes through them.  Be sure to use the UV prior to any refugium, or the pods will not make it to the main display. I am in the process of adding a few more UVs to the tanks here, just to prevent some excess pathogens from new coral (mainly Ricordea yuma) additions.

 

As for naming fish...if you are superstitious, this may not be the best thing to do

And always remember the lfs will always sell ya fish! This does not mean you have to buy each visit...coming home without baggies is sometimes a good thing  

[Guest baygl]

Well, as I'm sure you all already knew, it looks like Moxy (my Neon Goby) is not going to make it.  He is still eating and doesn't look as  covered with stuff as he did Monday but his activity level has slowed some and he is starting to struggle to breathe.  :-(  What's even worse is that my Royal Gramma is rubbing on the rocks and I believe has some tiny spots on her face.  

 

I received my new pH monitor Wednesday and the pH was at 8.22 so that problem is resolved.  The other water parameters are in a good range and the other fish seem to be happy, knock on wood -- yes I am superstitious but everyone has to have a name!!  :-)

 

So, it is my understanding that at this point the only and best thing I can do is to let things settle for a couple months.  AND hope that there are still some fish left ...

 

In the mean time, I'll look into into UV sterilizers and BetaFlucan.

 

baygl

[michaelg]

I'm a bit suprised that no one mentioned the usefulness of having cleaner shrimp in the tank.  A pair is great.

Quite a few have reported that garlic extract also helps to boost up the immune system in the tanks as well.  Also, a better investment instead of a UV sterilizer, IMO, is a $60 refractometer for measuring accurately the salt concentrations in the tank.  Those numbers were the most off from your chemistry.  Just keep adding saltwater for your makeup water- but you really need to know the true target that you want to get to- salinity meters are notorious for being innacurate.  I find things much more forgiving if you get it up to 1.024 range- system seems to deal with some increase better than being way on the low end.  

You seem to be doing a good job in your home work, so thought I'd throw in the above for some more food for thought.

[Gatortailale]

-I think you SG is low "1.020.  I run all my tanks at 1.025.  

- try to find someone with a refractometer to calibrate your test device against or spend money on one.  I can bring mine to fall meeting if you need.

 

- I have in the past (almost 2 years ago) used kick ick and didn't see any ill effects on corals other inverts.

 

- some people have success with garlic extract - soak food in it then feed fish.

[ReefMon]

Along with everything else said, I'd recommend soaking your food in Selcon.

 

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchan....=SELCON