I have a problem

[dschflier]

Okay I got eh jist of all the responses and thank you all. I did use 12-2 wire for my 20 amp circuit. I have about 10 outlets and am considering putting a GFCI mid way through so half my items can be on GFCI(ie the items which go in the water will be after the GFCI switch.) I figure I will do the arc fault as well. I am almost done with my new plumbing and then I wil look at my electrical. Thanks again for the input and I will re-read all the suggestions once I finish the other work.

[Rascal]

If a heater, and or any other device were to split, or break as you suggest, it would cause a short, in turn turning off the breaker. It wouldn't matter if it was a regular breaker, GFCI or AFCI, all of them will trip.

 

Now, if you going to be standing in your sump, and you drop a light in there, then sure that is a bit unsafe, as the response time is not quite as fast and say a GFCI, but all things considered, it is not unsafe to use a normal breaker under normal circumstances.

 

Grounded or not, it is not safe to rely on a normal circuit breaker to protect you from electric shock. They are not designed for that. They are just designed to protect the circuit from getting overloaded. A circuit breaker trips when the amount of current passing through it exceeds its rating, and not before. Even in the case of a direct hot-to-neutral short, it is not the short per se that causes the breaker to trip, it is the huge rise in current that immediately and directly follows as a result of sudden drop in resistance caused by short (Ohm's law).

 

So, let's say you have a faulty device causing some exposure of the hot lead to saltwater (i.e. "leaking" voltage). If you have a grounding probe in the tank, you now have a ground-fault (which as you pointed out is a type of short). Some amount of current will flow from hot to ground through the tank. If you don't have a grounding probe in the tank, you will not have a ground-fault until you stick your hand in the tank (assuming you yourself are grounded of course), at which point the current will be flowing from hot to tank to you to ground. Either way, a 15A breaker will not trip unless the total current exceeds 15A, or 15,000 mA. So if you only have 10,000 mA of current flowing and you stick your hand in the tank while you are grounded, some (or all, if the tank is not grounded) of that current is going to now be passing through your body. The circuit breaker will do nothing to prevent you from getting cooked (or worse, if the current happened to be between 100-200 mA and passed through the heart). A GFCI on the other hand, would have tripped at a mere 5 mA variance. So it is not just the response time that makes a GFCI different from a circuit breaker, it is the tolerance for harmful or fatal current.

 

I'm sure everyone at least at WAMAS grounds their tank right?

I don't know whether everyone in WAMAS grounds their tanks. There is an interesting debate in the hobby about whether this is good or bad for the inhabitants. Some argue that by providing a constant path to ground you simply allow stray voltage in the tank to push current through the tank and all of its inhabitants. Others say so what, the fish are like birds on a wire and unharmed by it. Personally I choose to use a grounding probe because I figure the more alternate paths to ground (other than me) the better, and especially if I can provide one that has a lot lower resistance than my body, so if something does go wrong most of the current will choose that path rather than me.

Edited November 6, 2008 by Rascal

[Coral Hind]

Grounded or not, it is not safe to rely on a normal circuit breaker to protect you from electric shock.

 

I agree!

 

 

I don't know whether everyone in WAMAS grounds their tanks. There is an interesting debate in the hobby about whether this is good or bad for the inhabitants. Some argue that by providing a constant path to ground you simply allow stray voltage in the tank to push current through the tank and all of its inhabitants. Others say so what, the fish are like birds on a wire and unharmed by it. Personally I choose to use a grounding probe because I figure the more alternate paths to ground (other than me) the better, and especially if I can provide one that has a lot lower resistance than my body, so if something does go wrong most of the current will choose that path rather than me.

 

I agree with you here also. The grounding probe creates an equipotential environment. Current is going to take the path of least resistance every time. Since it is easier for the current to go around the fish then through the fish, the fish are safe thanks to equipotential. It is just like

working on energized lines via chian maille. Edited November 6, 2008 by Coral Hind

[toastiireefs]

wow soooooo much information!!!!

hmmm now understanding all of it. . . thats the challenge!!! hahah i should be going out today to pick up something . . . . ahaha no i will figure it all out bfore i buy of course

 

Or just take the lamp out of the sump

 

If I remember correctly, it went something like "Wow, aren't you worried that the lamp is going to go in the water?" Spash-BZZZZZZZZT.

 

 

oooooh i have an experience with that too and my seahorse tank. . . . . . that was crazy

Edited November 8, 2008 by toastiireefs

[toastiireefs]

soooo as you guys guessed it it was my heater. . . . it had a blow out/ holes in it and the cord fried. . . .

 

 

buuuut now EVERYTHING in my tank is DEAD!!!! even my really cool clams and mussles that i kept alive that were on the rock . . . .

 

sooo i am gonna do a massive water change. . . . annnd add some biro spira . . . since thats all i really have time to get to restart. . . annnd gonna go get a grounding probe

[lhcorals]

Wow, you got electrocuted too! That makes two people on this thread that has died and come back to life.

 

 

You caught that too. They got shocked. Electrocuted people should'nt be typing.

[Coral Hind]

If a heater, and or any other device were to split, or break as you suggest, it would cause a short, in turn turning off the breaker. It wouldn't matter if it was a regular breaker, GFCI or AFCI, all of them will trip.

 

I do not want to turn this into a Mike Holt forum but I do not agree with this statement. First off, if the item fails, that does not mean it will cause a short. It could only be a ground fault. If the tank does not have a grounding probe or any other means of a ground then the leakage has no reference to ground. So the tank would remain at the same voltage potential as the faulted item. Basically sitting there charged at 120v.

 

If it did have a short circuit it would only trip a breaker if it was a direct short. I have seen glass heaters crack and the air kept most of the water out. This only caused a short or bypass of the bottom third of the heater. Not enough surge amps for the breaker to trip but enough to melt the plastic and pollute the tank. I had a Rio pumps that the epoxy failed on and it melted in my tank. The breaker and GFCI outlet never tripped. The reason is becasue there was no reference to ground. That is why a ground probe is so important IMHO.