I need help or perhaps can someone verify my plumbing

[m3fan8ic]

I wanted to see if there's anyone in W.Springfield or close by area is willing to come by and verify plumbing which I just finished for my sump. I setup my filteration system in the basement. I am using 40gl tank as for sump for right now which will be replaced with 75gl once I transition my LS from there to this new setup.I am using GSA8 skimmer for my 144gls tank with two builtin OFs. I have one 1" drain and one 1" return which turns into 3/4" in the tank. I put 2 ballvalves on each, return and drain( one upstairs, one basement). My drain directly goes to skimmer via Mag7 feeder and return via mag 18. I've fine tuned the return and drain via the valves. However I am not sure about the skimmer setup as I can see a tornado inside and it's making lots of bubble. I want someone to make sure I have enough flow in both directions and setup is what it suppose to be for best results. This is my first try with this and since its in begining phase so I would like to workout any mistakes before it's too late. Tank has full water in it with some LR and sand bed. Water is cycling at the moment and there's no LS in it. Please let me know if anyone is willing to give me some advice. I am willing to buy pizza or beer if like

 

here are some pics for better understanding:

Edited August 12, 2008 by m3fan8ic

[jason the filter freak]

Posting a pic or diagram would really help us to help you. I'm worried about the mag 7 and mag 18 beign so far apart I don't think i quite understand your set up. Also are the ball valves true union in like with PVC, or barbed in line with hose? If not you may want to reconsider. As for the skimmer are you running fresh water or saltwater at the moment, if it's fresh the skimmer isn't going to work at all, if it's salt water and not dirty (ie have fish in it) then it's not really going to skim either.

Edited August 11, 2008 by jason the filter freak

[m3fan8ic]

Yea I have to take a pic and post it for better understaning, I'll do that today when I get home..

the valves are barbed inline with hose. I had fresh water and added/mixing salt later in the evening so I know it won't skim but wanted to make sure that its doing what it suppose to.

Mag 7 is connected directly with drain pipe which goes into skimmer, and Mag 18 is just for return. What do you mean about so far apart??

 

Posting a pic or diagram would really help us to help you. I'm worried about the mag 7 and mag 18 beign so far apart I don't think i quite understand your set up. Also are the ball valves true union in like with PVC, or barbed in line with hose? If not you may want to reconsider. As for the skimmer are you running fresh water or saltwater at the moment, if it's fresh the skimmer isn't going to work at all, if it's salt water and not dirty (ie have fish in it) then it's not really going to skim either.

[ROBZ]

Im in Springfield, Backlick rd ans rolling rd, maybe i can take a look

[m3fan8ic]

Thanks I just sent you a PM with my contact info. let me know when is a good time for you. I am right off of FFX county parkway after Hoose Rd. exit.

 

thanks

Sid

 

Im in Springfield, Backlick rd ans rolling rd, maybe i can take a look

[Rascal]

All sounds well to me except the following.

 

I have one 1" drain and one 1" return which turns into 3/4" in the tank. I put 2 ballvalves on each, return and drain( one upstairs, one basement). My drain directly goes to skimmer via Mag7 feeder and return via mag 18. I've fine tuned the return and drain via the valves. .. . .. I want someone to make sure I have enough flow in both directions

 

If possible (and I know it often isn't) I think it is always a good idea to have at least 2 drain lines for redundancy. That way if (when) something goes wrong and clogs a drain you might avoid a flood, burned out return pump, etc. . .

 

Same concern with the ball valve on the drain line to fine tune the drain. Having a partially closed ball valve on your drain will only increase the chances of an obstruction. Keep in mind, many of us do this quite successfully in accord with what was originally called the "Herbie" method (after a guy on RC) but this requires having a back-up, fully unrestricted drain line with an opening slightly above the desired water level in the overflow but below the rim of the tank.

 

Re: "drain goes directly to skimmer via Mag7 feeder" and "I want to make sure I have enough flow in both directions"

It sounds like you have your drain line directly hooked up to the intake of a Mag7, the output of which goes directly to your skimmer. If so, the Mag7 is unnecessary. The rate of flow in your drain line is determined by the rate of flow in your return line. Unless the tank is overflowing the flow in both directions is always going to be the same. By restricting the drain line with a valve, all you are doing is changing the height of the water in the overflow by increasing the water pressure that is required to achieve the same flow rate in the drain. Creating a restriction in the line means that water will flow slower at a given pressure. This causes the water level in the overflow to rise as there is a temporary imbalance between the rate of flow coming in and that going out. As the level rises, however, the water pressure on the drain increases until hopefully it is enough to force the water through the restricted line at the same rate as it is coming in via the return line. Restrict the drain too much and you will not be able to achieve the required water pressure without the water getting higher than the rim of the tank. This is not a good thing.

 

HTH

[m3fan8ic]

I appreciate your help, and you are correct about the drain and valves.

My problem is that I have two 3" holes throug my floor for the flex pipes to go to the basement for my sump. And drilling another hole is out of the question since we just finished renovation and putting new flooring. So i have to work with those two 3" holes; one for drain and one for return. So you think I should remove the Mag7 from the feeder and directly connect my drain the skimmer?

If i remove the restriction (valve) from the drain, should I control the skimmer output since there's a ball valve there? To balance the water level I had to restrict water going back up as well. I guess once I remove the feeder pump (mag 7) then I can play with return and see how the water level will hold?

 

All sounds well to me except the following.

If possible (and I know it often isn't) I think it is always a good idea to have at least 2 drain lines for redundancy. That way if (when) something goes wrong and clogs a drain you might avoid a flood, burned out return pump, etc. . .

 

Same concern with the ball valve on the drain line to fine tune the drain. Having a partially closed ball valve on your drain will only increase the chances of an obstruction. Keep in mind, many of us do this quite successfully in accord with what was originally called the "Herbie" method (after a guy on RC) but this requires having a back-up, fully unrestricted drain line with an opening slightly above the desired water level in the overflow but below the rim of the tank.

 

Re: "drain goes directly to skimmer via Mag7 feeder" and "I want to make sure I have enough flow in both directions"

It sounds like you have your drain line directly hooked up to the intake of a Mag7, the output of which goes directly to your skimmer. If so, the Mag7 is unnecessary. The rate of flow in your drain line is determined by the rate of flow in your return line. Unless the tank is overflowing the flow in both directions is always going to be the same. By restricting the drain line with a valve, all you are doing is changing the height of the water in the overflow by increasing the water pressure that is required to achieve the same flow rate in the drain. Creating a restriction in the line means that water will flow slower at a given pressure. This causes the water level in the overflow to rise as there is a temporary imbalance between the rate of flow coming in and that going out. As the level rises, however, the water pressure on the drain increases until hopefully it is enough to force the water through the restricted line at the same rate as it is coming in via the return line. Restrict the drain too much and you will not be able to achieve the required water pressure without the water getting higher than the rim of the tank. This is not a good thing.

 

HTH

[davelin315]

Hey Sid, I think that you're cutting your flow WAY down with the way you have things connected. I would ditch the barb fittings and glue the flex PVC directly to the plumbing. You can use unions to allow it to be disconnected still. Essentially, you've got what appears to be 1" flex PVC that is being reduced down to probably closer to 3/4" or smaller because of the barbs. Also, I don't know that the barbs are really designed for this application as the reason for getting PVC is so that it can be glued (at least to me). Also, is that airline tubing holding the tubes up? That is bound to stretch and possibly break as the weight of the tube and water is going to weigh it down.

[m3fan8ic]

Hey Sid, I think that you're cutting your flow WAY down with the way you have things connected. I would ditch the barb fittings and glue the flex PVC directly to the plumbing. You can use unions to allow it to be disconnected still. Essentially, you've got what appears to be 1" flex PVC that is being reduced down to probably closer to 3/4" or smaller because of the barbs. Also, I don't know that the barbs are really designed for this application as the reason for getting PVC is so that it can be glued (at least to me). Also, is that airline tubing holding the tubes up? That is bound to stretch and possibly break as the weight of the tube and water is going to weigh it down.

 

Dave thanks for your help, The reason I have barb fittings is for restricting the flow in both directions just incase of any problems. If you think its not needed I can remove it. I am actually using flex hose not flex PVC, it looks like flex PVC though. I am actually going to HD today to pick up some elbow's and pvc's b/c my flex hose under the tank has minor leak which I can't tell from where. Also I don't like the way it's setup also b/c hose has too many turns and drain is not even. My drain from the tank is 1" all the way but my return is 1" from the mag 18 till it's gets under the tank where it's 3/4. If I remove the barb fittings how can I tune the water level?

[dandy7200]

I put 2 ballvalves on each, return and drain( one upstairs, one basement). My drain directly goes to skimmer via Mag7 feeder and return via mag 18. I've fine tuned the return and drain via the valves. However I am not sure about the skimmer setup as I can see a tornado inside and it's making lots of bubble.

 

 

A few things are wrong with this picture.

 

1. If you only have 1 drain line then you cannot gravity feed a skimmer

2. If you only have 1 drain line then you cannot use a valve on that line

3. There is not a good reason to put a pump inline on a drain line

 

Your skimmer looks to be getting a little too much flow. That coupled with large bubles from your overflow going through the into the skimmer are not going to give you good results, the pump on the drain line will also give you a inconsistent water level. Take the mag 7 off and run your drain line to the sump. Take the mag7 and put it in the sump with a ball valve on the exit and plum that to the skimmer.

 

Re: flex tubing.

 

You are using flex pvc, I can read the writing on it "spa-flex". Ditch the threaded valves and buy a slip valve and glue it up, then you can control the output from the mag18 to the tank.

[m3fan8ic]

Dan thanks for your input, I'll try that.

Sid

 

I put 2 ballvalves on each, return and drain( one upstairs, one basement). My drain directly goes to skimmer via Mag7 feeder and return via mag 18. I've fine tuned the return and drain via the valves. However I am not sure about the skimmer setup as I can see a tornado inside and it's making lots of bubble.

A few things are wrong with this picture.

 

1. If you only have 1 drain line then you cannot gravity feed a skimmer

2. If you only have 1 drain line then you cannot use a valve on that line

3. There is not a good reason to put a pump inline on a drain line

 

Your skimmer looks to be getting a little too much flow. That coupled with large bubles from your overflow going through the into the skimmer are not going to give you good results, the pump on the drain line will also give you a inconsistent water level. Take the mag 7 off and run your drain line to the sump. Take the mag7 and put it in the sump with a ball valve on the exit and plum that to the skimmer.

 

Re: flex tubing.

 

You are using flex pvc, I can read the writing on it "spa-flex". Ditch the threaded valves and buy a slip valve and glue it up, then you can control the output from the mag18 to the tank.

[Rascal]

Dan, do you think this would work:

 

Put a T or Y in the drain line, so that one line goes to the skimmer and one goes straight to the sump. Then put a gate valve on the line going to the skimmer (after the T or Y), and use this valve to control the flow rate to the skimmer while the line going straight to the sump remains unrestricted.

[m3fan8ic]

Ok changed the drain as Dan stated, meaning got rid of the barb vavle, drain come in in sump and via mag 7 running from sum to skimmer. Everything is looking great except couple of issues:

I have gargle sound and tiny bubles in my tank

also there's a small leak in skimmer (Top feeder seal. How can I fix these?

[dandy7200]

Ok changed the drain as Dan stated, meaning got rid of the barb vavle, drain come in in sump and via mag 7 running from sum to skimmer. Everything is looking great except couple of issues:

I have gargle sound and tiny bubles in my tank

also there's a small leak in skimmer (Top feeder seal. How can I fix these?

 

gargle sound: In you overflow?

leak: I thought that may happen with the mag7 mounted to the side of the skimmer like you had it. Shoot me your addy via PM and I can mail you a new uniseal.

 

 

Dan, do you think this would work:

 

Put a T or Y in the drain line, so that one line goes to the skimmer and one goes straight to the sump. Then put a gate valve on the line going to the skimmer (after the T or Y), and use this valve to control the flow rate to the skimmer while the line going straight to the sump remains unrestricted.

 

 

It can work as you describe it, although I prefer a alternate type of gravity feed and using two drains. Single drains and gravity feed really take too much tuning and provide inconsistent results IME.

[m3fan8ic]

Yes the gargle sound is coming from my overflows. I adjusted the hight of pipe/tupe for the drain inside the overflows and have sponge on the top of it but sound is annoying. PM is on your way

Thanks

Sid

[bph]

Do you have a durso type overflow set up? Not that my tank is full of water, so I can't speak from experience, but from what I understand, this is the way to go.

 

or check out this website (just did a google search for durso overflow:

http://www.the3wisemen.net/durso.jpg

 

 

Yes the gargle sound is coming from my overflows. I adjusted the hight of pipe/tupe for the drain inside the overflows and have sponge on the top of it but sound is annoying. PM is on your way

Thanks

Sid

Edited August 14, 2008 by bph

[m3fan8ic]

Bph, This link is great I was trying to understand how it's design and setup and the link just made it easy for me. I guess I know what I'll working on this weekend ..

Thanks again

Sid

 

Do you have a durso type overflow set up? Not that my tank is full of water, so I can't speak from experience, but from what I understand, this is the way to go.

 

or check out this website (just did a google search for durso overflow:

http://www.the3wisemen.net/durso.jpg

Edited August 15, 2008 by m3fan8ic

[bph]

What that link does not talk about is a hole in the end cap which is needed to vent the system.

 

This guy has a wonderful write up on how it is designed, but his website crashed and he is in the process up recreating it.

http://www.dursostandpipes.com/

 

and this guy (Ken Stockman with a aqua-silencer) claims his design is even better than the Durso stand pipe:

http://stockmanreef.com/aqua-silencer_standpipe.htm

 

Bph, This link is great I was trying to understand how it's design and setup and the link just made it easy for me. I guess I know what I'll working on this weekend ..

Thanks again

Sid

Edited August 15, 2008 by bph