Steve G December 31, 2007 Share December 31, 2007 I have a few questions about aquacontrollers, some of which I could pose to Neptune Systems directly, but I like asking actual owners instead of salesmen. So thanks in advance if anyone can help me out here. 1. I missed the last group buy(s), but I'm wondering whether there really is much of a discount from doing a GB? It looks like a big headache and you still have to drive somewhere to pickup, as opposed to it coming to your door. From my read of the looooong group buy thread it looked like someone buying the Jr. with DC8, Serial, and lab probe (the setup I'm looking at) paid about $320 after accounting for discounts, shipping, and paypal charges. Is that right? 2. Does anyone know whether the difference between the standard grade and lab grade Ph probe is worth getting the fancier one (and why)? 3. Can the Ph probe that comes with it be used in a regular Pinpoint monitor? I ask because I have a monitor with an old probe that I'd like to keep as a more mobile water testing device. 4. Is there anything special about the serial cable that Neptune Systems tries to sell you? I have a box full of old computer cables and I don't want to shell out $18 for something I have multples of anyway. 5. My system is not that complicated. No Ca reactor and I don't need my tank sending me emails, as cool as that sounds. So I'm thinking of going with the Jr. I figure that I will get the serial cable and attach it to an ancient laptop I was going to junk anyway. Has anybody else been in that position and regretted not getting the III or the III-Pro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhoch December 31, 2007 Share December 31, 2007 I have a few questions about aquacontrollers, some of which I could pose to Neptune Systems directly, but I like asking actual owners instead of salesmen. So thanks in advance if anyone can help me out here. 1. I missed the last group buy(s), but I'm wondering whether there really is much of a discount from doing a GB? It looks like a big headache and you still have to drive somewhere to pickup, as opposed to it coming to your door. From my read of the looooong group buy thread it looked like someone buying the Jr. with DC8, Serial, and lab probe (the setup I'm looking at) paid about $320 after accounting for discounts, shipping, and paypal charges. Is that right? I can't say anyting about that one. 2. Does anyone know whether the difference between the standard grade and lab grade Ph probe is worth getting the fancier one (and why)? Not really worth it... It supposedly lasts longer and is more accurate, but in the end proper care and calibration and you'll be fine. 3. Can the Ph probe that comes with it be used in a regular Pinpoint monitor? I ask because I have a monitor with an old probe that I'd like to keep as a more mobile water testing device. Yes... as long as the probe has stayed moist... dryed out probe = useless probe... 4. Is there anything special about the serial cable that Neptune Systems tries to sell you? I have a box full of old computer cables and I don't want to shell out $18 for something I have multples of anyway. Is this for the the serial cable to attach the Jr to your computer? If so realize it's a minidin 8 -> female db9... these are hard to come by... If you want to build a switch box you just need a minidin 8 connector on one side as you are going to cannibalize the other side. 5. My system is not that complicated. No Ca reactor and I don't need my tank sending me emails, as cool as that sounds. So I'm thinking of going with the Jr. I figure that I will get the serial cable and attach it to an ancient laptop I was going to junk anyway. Has anybody else been in that position and regretted not getting the III or the III-Pro? The biggest thing with the Jr is the limitation of 12 Timers. This limits the expansion. Depending on the size of tank and any expansion you are going to do go with the III. (I started with a single Reefkeeper then when to two reefkeepers and then ended up with the Nepute III-Pro... I'm using all the timers or very close to it controlling two tanks with two exapnsion modules, tunze stream controller (aquasurf) and the nightlights Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fab December 31, 2007 Share December 31, 2007 The serial cable is just a computer serial cable. You need to use the ground isolated serial connector to avoid seriously biased pH readings. Unfortunately, this is not a cheap item. The lab grade probe is NOT more accurate or precise. It is just better built to last longer. I think it is worth it. The AC jr is a nice unit until you outgrow it. Then you will wish you had the AC III. Only you can judge that issue. I think dhoch's comment about the 12 timer limitation is significantly important and you should regard it carefully. Please PM me. fab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lletellier December 31, 2007 Share December 31, 2007 timers get eaten up FAST! Plan ahead how many your going to need Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fab January 2, 2008 Share January 2, 2008 The ground isolated serial connector breaks up ground loops between your PC and the AquaController. Electrical ground loops form when a serial connection is made with your computer and can cause erroneous pH and ORP readings. This occurs because your computer chassis ground and your aquarium ground are most likely slightly different from each other. That means there is a small voltage drop between your computer ground and your aquarium. That small voltage difference is what throws off the readings of your pH and ORP probes. Unfortunately, the error in your readouts will not be constant, so you can't calibrate out the error. The voltage fluctuates and shows up in your readings, so you have no idea how much pH or ORP error you have in your readings. That pretty much obviates the whole purpose of having the controller and accurate probes in the first place. Install a ground isolated serial connector in the series with the serial cable from the AquaController to break these ground loops and eliminate this contribution to error in your probe readouts. It always amazes me how people want to scrimp and save on items that control the water quality that very expensive aquaria content depend on. Don't try to go the cheap route in the wrong places. Buy both the cable and the ground isolated serial connector. fab The minidin 8 pin connector is used for Apple Macintosh serial ports. This connector connects to the Aquacontroller. The cables can be extended with cables that have db-9 connectors, easily found in any computer store. fab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnguyen4007 January 3, 2008 Share January 3, 2008 Not knowing enough to agree or disagree with what I've seen from everyone's response so far, I decided to go to the source, the folks who makes the AC controllers and ask them. This is the reply I received back from Curt Pansegrau via email: The serial port isn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YBeNormal January 3, 2008 Share January 3, 2008 It's amazing to me that Curt would say the serial option is not officially supported even though it is documented in the owner's manual, listed in the 'features' on the Neptune web site and they sell the cables to support this option. Maybe I'm overlooking it but I see nothing on the Neptune site stating that this is an unsupported option or even recommending that Ethernet be used if possible. Ethernet is a better option and that is the way I have mine connected, but still... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnguyen4007 January 3, 2008 Share January 3, 2008 It's amazing to me that Curt would say the serial option is not officially supported even though it is documented in the owner's manual, listed in the 'features' on the Neptune web site and they sell the cables to support this option. Maybe I'm overlooking it but I see nothing on the Neptune site stating that this is an unsupported option or even recommending that Ethernet be used if possible. Ethernet is a better option and that is the way I have mine connected, but still... This is what I found on Neptunesys website: Serial Connection Accessories PC Serial Cable In order to connect the AquaController to a PC, a serial connection is required. This serial cable is 6 foot long with a minidin 8 connector (plugs into the AquaController) on one end and a female DB9 connector on the other. If a longer serial connection is required, a 'straight through' serial externsion cable can be purchased from your local computer store Ground Isolated Serial Connector The ground isolated serial connector (SERIPC9) is used to break ground loops between your PC and the AquaController. In some installations a ground loop is formed when a serial connection is made and can cause erroneous pH and ORP readings. This ground loop can be broken by installing a GISC in the series with the serial cable from the AquaController. If the serial cable is going to be permantly hooked up to the AquaController, then the GISC is recommended. The GISC measures 1.5" x 1.25" x .65" and has one male DB9 connector and one female DB9 connector. Note that the GISC is only for use with the AquaController, AquaController 2 or AquaController Jr. Based on the above information, it sounds like they're saying a serial connection is required. But, the response I got from Curt said differently. I'm thinking that the response I got from Curt is specifically for the AC III and possibly the AC Pro because the question I asked him was concerning the need of a serial connector for ACIII to prevent fluctuated reading of the pH and ORP probes. In any case, I'm glad that Curt supports the ethernet cable usage instead of the serial cable for the ACIII. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmax7774 January 3, 2008 Share January 3, 2008 (edited) having been through your exact situation, here's my thoughts and regrets. 1 - Buy local, and support your Local fish store. I bought mine at BRK, and Johnny gave me free tech support, and helped me get mine setup properly. You can't really get that from a web vendor, and I mean really, the price difference is not all that much. maybe $10 or $20 at most. I prefer to deal with a human, and if it ever breaks, I know Johnny will help me get the vendor to make things right. 2 - PH probes drift over time and become innacurate, and need to be calibrated. A lab grade probe will hold it's calibration longer than the standard grade. with that said, I bought the standard grade, and it has served me fine for the last year. Save the $20 and get the standard one. 3 - can't help on this one, as I never had a pinpoint monitor, but I'm sure someone has tried it before... 4 - there is nothing special at all about the cables that are provided by Neptune. I made my own cables from computer parts, for both the AC jr, I used to have, and the AC3 I now have. They work fine, and if you want to use float switches, you end up having to make your own cables anyway. the ones from neptune are overpriced. 5 - I started out with the AC jr, and used it for almost 1 year. Very quickly I regretted it, as it only has room for 1 PH probe, 1 float switch, and no email/webhost capabiliites. I thought I didn't need the more expensive one when I got the JR, but I was fooling myself. The thing is, if you plan to stay in this hobby for a while, you will inevitably want a calcium reactor or an auto top off, or a kalkwasser or some combination of those things. I did. I bought the AC3 package for $300 + change (don't remember the exact price) and within a year, I had to shell out another $399 for the AC3. Now granted I did keep the ph robe and the AC8 from the jr, but if I had just gone with the AC3 to begin with, I could have saved myself some cash. Unless you are 125% sure you will never never ever want more than the AC jr, then just save yourself some cash in the long run and get the AC3. PS - the single biggest reason to get the A3 is the email alerts. it's more than just a cool factor, it can really save your @$$. I personally was saved when the pump I used to circulate water to my chiller siezed, and my temperature spiked. I had a statement in my programming that shutoff the lights when the temp got too high, and emailed about the problem. If that had happened when I was out of town, I would have never known till I returned. You can setup all kinds of alert conditions with the AC3 that makes it invaluable. when you have years of time, and thousands of dollars invested in your tank, it doesn't make sense not to have the AC3. John Edited January 3, 2008 by madmax7774 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhoch January 3, 2008 Share January 3, 2008 PS - the single biggest reason to get the A3 is the email alerts. it's more than just a cool factor, it can really save your @$$. I personally was saved when the pump I used to circulate water to my chiller siezed, and my temperature spiked. I had a statement in my programming that shutoff the lights when the temp got too high, and emailed about the problem. If that had happened when I was out of town, I would have never known till I returned. You can setup all kinds of alert conditions with the AC3 that makes it invaluable. when you have years of time, and thousands of dollars invested in your tank, it doesn't make sense not to have the AC3. John Having gone through this (when I was in Houston with a return pump) let me just say I agree... My tank would have been decimated if not for the AC and the email alerts. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnguyen4007 January 3, 2008 Share January 3, 2008 having been through your exact situation, here's my thoughts and regrets. 1 - Buy local, and support your Local fish store. I bought mine at BRK, and Johnny gave me free tech support, and helped me get mine setup properly. You can't really get that from a web vendor, and I mean really, the price difference is not all that much. maybe $10 or $20 at most. I prefer to deal with a human, and if it ever breaks, I know Johnny will help me get the vendor to make things right. 2 - PH probes drift over time and become innacurate, and need to be calibrated. A lab grade probe will hold it's calibration longer than the standard grade. with that said, I bought the standard grade, and it has served me fine for the last year. Save the $20 and get the standard one. 3 - can't help on this one, as I never had a pinpoint monitor, but I'm sure someone has tried it before... 4 - there is nothing special at all about the cables that are provided by Neptune. I made my own cables from computer parts, for both the AC jr, I used to have, and the AC3 I now have. They work fine, and if you want to use float switches, you end up having to make your own cables anyway. the ones from neptune are overpriced. 5 - I started out with the AC jr, and used it for almost 1 year. Very quickly I regretted it, as it only has room for 1 PH probe, 1 float switch, and no email/webhost capabiliites. I thought I didn't need the more expensive one when I got the JR, but I was fooling myself. The thing is, if you plan to stay in this hobby for a while, you will inevitably want a calcium reactor or an auto top off, or a kalkwasser or some combination of those things. I did. I bought the AC3 package for $300 + change (don't remember the exact price) and within a year, I had to shell out another $399 for the AC3. Now granted I did keep the ph robe and the AC8 from the jr, but if I had just gone with the AC3 to begin with, I could have saved myself some cash. Unless you are 125% sure you will never never ever want more than the AC jr, then just save yourself some cash in the long run and get the AC3. PS - the single biggest reason to get the A3 is the email alerts. it's more than just a cool factor, it can really save your @$$. I personally was saved when the pump I used to circulate water to my chiller siezed, and my temperature spiked. I had a statement in my programming that shutoff the lights when the temp got too high, and emailed about the problem. If that had happened when I was out of town, I would have never known till I returned. You can setup all kinds of alert conditions with the AC3 that makes it invaluable. when you have years of time, and thousands of dollars invested in your tank, it doesn't make sense not to have the AC3. John John, I agree with you 100%. Budget is tight for me but after thinking over whether I should save a bit of money now and get the Jr or spend more now and save later on an ACIII and all of the features that comes with it, I decided to join the groupbuy and got the ACIII. My 30 gal reef tank is no where the cost of those that are much larger, but a lot of my money has gone into it. So skimping on a device that could potentially save me from costly catastrophe later just wasn't an option. I love this hobby and I can count on the ACIII being there for me when I'm ready to upgrade to a much larger reef system. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G January 3, 2008 Author Share January 3, 2008 Thanks, everyone, for the advice. WAMAS rocks. I found a lot of AC Jr's with no DC8 for sale on reefcentral, which tells me that lots of people who buy the Jr. come to regret it and upgrade. So I guess it's down to the III or the 3Pro for me. I'd love to support my LFS if I had one. BRK is over a 70 mile round trip, about $10 in gas and two hours of wasted drive time. Tropical Lagoon is the closest place to me and I have only had bad experiences with them in terms of customer service, and their hours are inconvenient. I'm going mail order. If anybody knows the best vendor for this I'd appreciate the heads up. I'm sure there is price variation. Looks like you can order straight from Neptune Systems. I've never heard of the mfger selling direct like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhoch January 3, 2008 Share January 3, 2008 Curts a good guy and you can definitly order directly from him. That's how I got most of my equipment (minus that which I've bought from him at MACNAs). Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fab January 3, 2008 Share January 3, 2008 Here is a bit of clarification on the Neptune Systems serial cable and connector issue. The serial connector cable that Neptune systems offers is for the AC jr and prior AC models. AC3 and AC3 Pro don't need it because they are set up for ethernet connections. The serial cable uses the minidin 8 pin connector that is the old style Apple MacIntosh serial port connector. That is why they are not very common anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRehman January 3, 2008 Share January 3, 2008 I'd love to support my LFS if I had one. BRK is over a 70 mile round trip, about $10 in gas and two hours of wasted drive time. Steve, I end up going to BRK now and then....like when I picked up the ACIII from the group buy! So, there are several of us in DC who are nuts enough to drive the distance occasionally...if we coordinate stuff can be picked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhoch January 3, 2008 Share January 3, 2008 Let me add that a mini din cable can also be used to create a switch box that can turn stuff on and off with the flick of a switch (or a float switch). Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YBeNormal January 3, 2008 Share January 3, 2008 So, there are several of us in DC who are nuts enough to drive the distance occasionally...if we coordinate stuff can be picked up. I live in Manassas and work in Falls Church near Bailey's Crossroads and Rt 7. I only work in the office a couple of days per week but I don't mind playing pack mule if someone needs something delivered. That's one of the great things about this club, people are always willing to help each other out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowerseller January 4, 2008 Share January 4, 2008 Here is a bit of clarification on the Neptune Systems serial cable and connector issue. The serial connector cable that Neptune systems offers is for the AC jr and prior AC models. AC3 and AC3 Pro don't need it because they are set up for ethernet connections. The serial cable uses the minidin 8 pin connector that is the old style Apple MacIntosh serial port connector. That is why they are not very common anymore. The ACIII does come with a serial port as well as the ethernet port. Let me add that a mini din cable can also be used to create a switch box that can turn stuff on and off with the flick of a switch (or a float switch). Dave Do tell more David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhoch January 4, 2008 Share January 4, 2008 Chip you didn't know that? Wow... You can take a mini din and strip the other end... then one line is the "ground" the others go to the other end of the switch.... Flicking the switch closes the circut... then you can program someting to shut off or on... I'll take a couple of pictures of mine if you want. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowerseller January 4, 2008 Share January 4, 2008 Chip you didn't know that? Wow... You can take a mini din and strip the other end... then one line is the "ground" the others go to the other end of the switch.... Flicking the switch closes the circut... then you can program someting to shut off or on... Just another confirmation that I'm a bozo. I'll take a couple of pictures of mine if you want. Dave I want, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YBeNormal January 4, 2008 Share January 4, 2008 I want, Me too. I have several ideas that I plan on rigging up for my little tank room over the coming months. Some of them involve use of relays and this would fit in to my plans nicely. (Note: The input voltage on the I/O connector must be <5V DC to prevent damage to the AC III) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnguyen4007 January 4, 2008 Share January 4, 2008 Chip you didn't know that? Wow... You can take a mini din and strip the other end... then one line is the "ground" the others go to the other end of the switch.... Flicking the switch closes the circut... then you can program someting to shut off or on... I'll take a couple of pictures of mine if you want. Dave Ooh... this sounds interesting. I want to know more and see how you put it together too. James Me too. I have several ideas that I plan on rigging up for my little tank room over the coming months. Some of them involve use of relays and this would fit in to my plans nicely. (Note: The input voltage on the I/O connector must be <5V DC to prevent damage to the AC III) Looks like I'll have to be extra nice to you so you can help me with it too. HEHEHEHE James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhoch January 4, 2008 Share January 4, 2008 Ok... I posted a thread over in the DIY section... here is the link: http://www.wamas.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=18978# Feel free to ask questions Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowerseller January 5, 2008 Share January 5, 2008 Feel free to ask questions Dave OK, how often do you clip your fingernails? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhoch January 5, 2008 Share January 5, 2008 Well I did this morning... but not as often as the picture would have you think Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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