BeltwayBandit
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Posts posted by BeltwayBandit
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Nice shots. Did you have to airbrush out all the trash that is usually in that river? Or did you just catch it on a good day?
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Actually... since we're talking about this... Obviously if a fish is dead, you throw it away and if it's alive you either find another responsible aquarist to take care of it or give it to an LFS. But... what is the proper way to dispose of plants? For something like Caulerpa, it would seem tossing it in the garbage disposal is not a good idea. Just put it in a landfill? Compost heap?
For plants, its the freezer. Place them in a plastic bag and freeze them for at least 24 hours. Then discard in the trash.
BB
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Its not just caulerpa in Cali, or Snakeheads in the potomac. There are numerous cases of aquarist introduced invasive species. We do need to be careful, and dispose of plants, animals and wastes properly.
Interesting side note. Caulerpa Taxifolia is a federal noxious weed. That means :
Short Version: don't sell it, don't give it away, by all means do not transport across state lines. My recommendation would be that if you have it, try to get rid of it. Safely.
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Is it safe to assume both the sump and display to be one contiguous body of water? i.e. where do people tend to ground their systems, display or sump (or both)?
The column of water from your return pump should link the main tank to the sump. If you want to go for the belt and suspenders approach put a grounding probe in the sump and main tank. However, one in the sump should be sufficient.
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I bought 4, ended up with 2. Tried adding some more, always ended up with 2. They are very proficient jumpers, so if you are considering adding some make sure your tank is jumper-proof.
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Interesting short article on the reef recovery at Bikini Atoll
http://environment.newscientist.com/articl...unces-back.html
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Sorry for the mini rant, but I see Ohio bashed all the time. People don't seem to *see* past the misconceptions about Ohio.
Heh.. try telling people your from Mississippi!
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Some chickens actually turn the breaker off before attempting to install a GFCI. I'm a chicken.
Make sure you put the load wires on load and line wires on line.
Doesn't have the same effect if you don't.
A GFCI, by operation, monitors current on the hot and neutral leg. By code, when they trip they open both legs, so you can't accidentally wire them backwards.
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It usually is a powerhead is about to go bad as someone has mentioned.
Heaters are also another 'usual suspect' with leaky current.
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Just to clarify, I would NEVER put a grounding probe on a non GFCI protected system.
Which is exactly what you'll often see in threads - no real reasoning "add a grounding probe".............because someone told them to
Which is the type of information the OP seemed to be getting, not how to really solve/address the issue.When taken in conjunction with the rest of the thread, I didn't feel it was necessary to reiterate the reason why. A ground probe on a non-GFCI protected tank will provide a path to ground for stray current. In the event of equipment failure this will set up a live circuit through the tank. This will likely not be enough to trip the circuit breaker for the system. Thus, the aquarist has no indication that there is a problem in the tank and can get a shock when they touch the water. Again, my basic philosophy is human conduit for electrical current = bad. You have not eliminated this possibility with just a grounding probe. Not to mention the damage you could do to the critters in your tank by having a significant current flowing through the tank, as opposed to the insignificant current created by induced voltages.
lol.gif Yep, but that's exactly how they set up the standards for home wiring - you're the grounding probe. Much less an issue with newer insulated devices, but still in the event of contact who's the probe?
There is also the concept of risk analysis in play here. In the normal household the risk of exposure to current from an ungrounded circuit is significantly less than when you add highly conductive saltwater or any water to the mix. Thats why code requires GFCI protection for wet/damp areas like kitchens, bathrooms and outdoors. When the risk potential increases the level of protection required increases. Our tanks are definitely wet locations and require increased protection. Given the nature of the system (electrical components immersed in the liquid medium) it can be argued that it requires greater protection than just a GFCI. Hence, the recommendation to utilize a grounding probe, to ensure that the GFCI will trip immediately upon the creation of a potentially hazardous situation.
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Just to clarify, I would NEVER put a grounding probe on a non GFCI protected system. If I had a non-GFCI system I would make darn sure that I am insulated from ground before reaching into the tank.
I bet you'd be surprised that I agree with BB..............to a point of divergence.
Actually, I'm not surprised at all.
So why not use a grounding probe? Simple - what does it get you? Nothing, nada, zip, zero, zilch, bubkiss. If you have a properly functioning GFCI (which I view as mandatory) the probe is fairly redundant, it offers nothing.
1) how do you know the probe is even functioning? How did you test it? Just because you have a spoke connected to a grounded outlet means little. And if it did work when installed - how do you test it? How often? Corrosion & other factors can cause it to be useless
It is very simple to periodically test it with a multimeter. Pull the probe out of the water, touch hot with one lead of your multimeter, touch the probe with the other. If your GFCI trips, it works. Pretty quick and simple and you have just tested both the probe and the GFCI.
2) A properly functioning GFCI will protect you from death or injury. It's easy to test, push the button. Functionality is critical - that's why it has the button. Easy to test & keeps you alive - what more do you want?
I prefer to not make myself the path to ground in order to get the GFCI to work. And, I prefer not to jeopardize my health on a single point of failure system. What happens if the GFCI doesn't work? Well your heirs will have a nice lawsuit against the manufacturer, your still dead.
Yes, you can get a shock even when protected by a GFCI............but that's the design. Working properly it will trip in milliseconds = it will trip before you are injured. Will you feel it? Maybe, but you'll be able to talk about it.
Like many things in this hobby...............it's your call, call the ball.
It is a fundamental tenant of electrical safety to design a system that attempts to eliminate any possible interactions between humans and electricity to the extent possible. A grounding probe does that, with your philosophy you are OK with making yourself the grounding probe. A competent electrical engineer would not design a system that required a human ground in order to go to a safe mode.
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There is actually an interesting story about a related hobby item that I'm sure everyone here knows.
It seems that there was once this aquarist who got tired of listening to the gurgle and splash of the cascading water down his overflows. So this intrepid aquarist decided to fix the problem. He invented a type of standpipe that would reduce the noise of the overflow. He then decided that this idea was really nifty and worth sharing. At that point, he could have applied for a patent (and if he had would probably at least have enough income to support his reefkeeping hoby). Instead, he chose to post his design and plans for all to use. His placing of the idea in the public domain, prevented it from being patentable. Shortly after publishing his idea, a major aquarium manufacturer offered a new kit that looked remarkably similar. Now, the downside is the inventor could claim no royalty from his design, the upside is the aquarium company could not claim a 20 year monopoly on the design either. So, for his unselfishness I salute Richard Durso, inventor of the Durso standpipe. And now you know the rest of the story...
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Ahh yes one of the classic 'arguments' among reefkeepers...
To ground or not to ground. That is the question.
Weather it is safer for the fish or the keeper to suffer
The ping and tingle of stray voltage
Or to put safety first
And by grounding, end them. To ground, with current...
No more... and with GFCI we prevent
The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks
That stray current leads to.
ok... enough butchering of Shakespeare.
There are two separate and distinct issues with grounding probes. Unfortunately these issues often get lumped together and thus the confusion is born.
There are two different sources of electric potential in your tank. Yes two. The first, is stray current from an improperly grounded or short circuited piece of equipment. If your equipment has a 3 prong plug, then it is likely that a short in the equipment will cause your GFCI to trip without a grounding probe. If you have any two prong (i.e. ungrounded) items, it is unlikely that your GFCI will trip without grounding the tank. I have been shocked by a tank, protected by GFCI, but ungrounded. It is entirely possible. In this scenario, grounding a tank should be a no brainer. If/when a piece of equipment shorts out there will be a momentary current from the equipment to the grounding probe. This will introduce an imbalance on the hot and neutral legs that your GFCI will detect and it will trip offline. We are talking less than a second here that current will flow through some portion of your tank. IMO that brief instant is not worth the risk of running a system ungrounded.
The second source of electric potential is not so clear cut. (and IMO the source of most of the confusion surrounding the issue). This involves induced voltages. I'm not going to go into the theory, but suffice it to say salt water is a good conductor of electricity and having electrical equipment in and around it can create an induced voltage. It is this stray voltage, that when left alone merely raises the electric potential of the tank, yet when a ground probe is introduced it will cause some minute (see link below to see how minute) amount of current to 'flow' through the tank. This is the current that the anti-ground probe folks are using to justify their opposition. I found the following paper on reefs.org that should throw cold water on this particular urban legend. As you will see, the induced current is so tiny (on the order of 10^-9) it truly can be considered trivial.
So, there you have it. That is my take on the issue.
BB
http://www.reefs.org/library/aquarium_net/1298/1298_3.html
PS: please, no one post that horrible website from Georgia Tech on this subject. That paper has to be one of the worst articles I have ever read on this particular subject.
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I made one very easily. I took a 6" pvc union and glued a 1/4" piece of scrap acrylic on to it. Here is an example of a pic I took with my box.
I do miss that clam.
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I am not exactly an electrical engineer (although I did play one for the government for 5 years), so I do know something... I agree with what has been said earlier in this thread. Arc fault and ground fault are two different scenarios, both of which are not uncommon with reefkeeping. I too experienced an arc fault in a lighting harness that did not trip a GFCI. The only thing that saved me from a major fire was coming home and smelling the burning plastic in time to unplug the lights. In my opinion, Dave's approach -> arc fault breakers and gfci outlets is the safest way to go. GFCI outlets are only about $14/each. If you go with a gfci/arc fault breaker you will take your whole system down with a fault. IMO ground faults are more common in our equipment, but arc faults will burn the house down. Taking down a subset of the aquarium for a ground fault and the whole shebang with an arc fault is the way to go.
My recommendation is to wire the system on an arc fault breaker (two would be better) and then individual gfci outlets is the safest option. The GFCI is a passive device, sensing current on the hot and neutral but not interfering, having one downstream of an arc fault breaker should not be a problem.
BB
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You would look funny in a cobra. I see you more af a "Dolly" guy
Now that would be a fun car to cruise around in.
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Its too bad I had to remove my replacement for Tyree from the bad word filter... It would make this thread much more interesting to read.
I'm definitely in the I buy it because I like it camp. I prefer aquacultured frags because they have better survival rates. I think the naming is silly, but if people are willing to pay more for a name then it will not go away.
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WOW, after what 2-3 years of saying these were in the works they are finally out! I had 3 scwds on my old tank and loved them.
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My dad had a 15 gal fw tank. When I was about 10 or so, I took it over. Upgraded to a 20 tall, went from swordtails to cichlids. Always drooled over the saltwater fish, but my parents wouldn't let me keep them. Took a few years off (like 7) when I was in school and stationed on a cutter. When I got to dc, 8 years ago started up with a 29 and some cichlids. Still drooled over sw. I kept fw for 3 years, then when I got married and bought a house started my 120 reef. Made all the noob mistakes before finding WAMAS. After 5 years, was just starting to get things going good, then moved and broke down my system. But, I have the bug. I'm already making plans for a 300gal system in my new house in NC. I'm just about a year away from being able to start it. :(
BB
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And that's the Dremel bit I was telling Chip and Johnny about. I've been using one of those bits for several months now, having cut several coral and even more live rock and there is no sign that it is wearing down at all. The cuts are wider than with a diamond bit but the bit is more durable and the price is much better.
I love that bit. It is great for fragging all sorts of corals. (Just make sure you take the coral out of the tank first. I don't think the Dremmel is water proof)
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straight titanium heating element, ranco controller, emergency cut off of the controller with my AquaController.
Thats how I did it. The Ranco could hold my temp easily within 0.5 degrees, I didn't have to worry about the crummy thermostats that they put on heaters, and I had a fail safe in case my Ranco went south.
BB
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how exactly do you go about fraging an elegance coral?
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Just tagging on to YBeNormal's post.. In addition to 'personal' attacks, please refrain from bringing arguments here from other forums. We have a very cordial relationship with our sister clubs throughout this area and the rest of the country. We would like to keep it that way. I know that sometimes it is tempting, but please lets all take the high road here. We can't control what happens on other forums, but we can control what is said here. I will not tolerate any more negative comments about the way CMAS or any other reef clubs handle their own business. So, this is a warning to everyone, lets talk about reefs not each other.
Thanks.
BB
Moderator
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when I had my tank.... :( I would feed a mixture of flake and pellets every day. Every other day, or third day, I had a frozen mix of mysis, silverside, cyclopeeze, shrimp, and a few other meaty bits that I would thaw in some tank water. Then take a turkey baster and target feed my hammer, torch, acans, haddoni, and blastos. Most of the food ended up in the water column and the fish ate it. But, a good bit got caught by the various corals and they did very well. It worked out for everyone.
More off-topic photos
in Marine Photography
You should see it after a good rainstorm. there are times when you have to look hard to see the river, for all the trash that is in it. I remember doing one of the potomac river cleanup projects a few years back and I was surprised at how much trash we pulled out of one very small area. Basically that river ends up catching anything that gets littered on the eastern side of DC.