jimlin January 26, 2013 Share January 26, 2013 man, everytime i am ready to pull the trigger on a led fixture i always find myself reading something similar to this which puts me back as square one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decadence January 26, 2013 Share January 26, 2013 (edited) I wouldn't let a single post dissuade you from getting something that you have your heart set on. I'm sure the Razor is an amazing fixture and if it is in your budget, by all means purchase it. I'm personally more DIY/stretch-that-dollar oriented so I like to get the absolute most out of my money, even if it means building my own fixture. If you have noticed, a lot of the people running high-dollar fixtures like the Ecotech Radions or AI sol start out with two of them (one over each half of the tank) and then wind up adding one or two more and turning them sideways to get more coverage. Even still, some people add even more and turn them back the other way and put them in two rows to get even more coverage. What you wind up with is $3,000 worth of lighting which could be matched or beat with $4-500, mad DIY skills and some time. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ :-X Edited January 26, 2013 by Decadence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basser9 January 26, 2013 Share January 26, 2013 (edited) If you can open up a chinese fixture and solder on replacements then fine but if you cant then a chinese fixture is junk.....period. The wiring is junk....the power supply is the worst thing you can imagine..a time bomb. It is no big deal for me to diy any problem but alot of people cant. The quaity control is so bad on the evergrow that alot were shipped wired backwords seems they got confused about VOLTS.....minor stuff. Look i like the cheap evergrow fixtures but i would go thru it with a fine tooth comb and rip it apart and modify it....it is junk period compared to a razor... Plus unless you have a par meter you dont know what a led does over a years time. I had a strip of XRE rb over a tank for 6months that were exposed to saltcreep and all there lenses came off....Even crees dont take kindly to moisture and heat. The first fixture from china[bridgelux emmitters] was the maxspect they made the mistake of telling the truth about the chips they used and said they would more then likely degrade 33percent over 3 years and should be replaced in 2......was funny because sometimes its better to lie. When i talk about a fixture being chinese i mean the EVERGROW ones because the RAZOR is chinese. Edited January 27, 2013 by basser9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimlin January 27, 2013 Share January 27, 2013 was going to get a kessil, but looks like i will be building another diy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basser9 January 27, 2013 Share January 27, 2013 Funny i love the kessill 350 if it was 100/150 dollars. Alot of money for a chinese multichip. I got 2 of the dream chips to make 2 fully controllable diy kessills,.....DIY ALL THE WAY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimlin January 27, 2013 Share January 27, 2013 Funny i love the kessill 350 if it was 100/150 dollars. Alot of money for a chinese multichip. I got 2 of the dream chips to make 2 fully controllable diy kessills,.....DIY ALL THE WAY mind sharing your parts list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decadence January 27, 2013 Share January 27, 2013 The evergrow fixtures are the same fixtures that all of the other companies sell with a different sticker on them. LEDs have the amazing ability to be mounted higher up by using tighter optics with very little loss of light. A non-PWM driver is an extremely simple piece of electrical circuitry and should never be the considering factor for your purchase. The components which they use are usually the same components from the same companies used in the more expensive drivers, just on a different circuit board which is likely made by one of the same mass-manufacturers which the the expensive companies use. The bulbs themselves are great as long as they are properly cooled. Most of the available fixtures are using 3w LEDs but are reduced to a little over 2w and bundled close together to maintain reliability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basser9 January 27, 2013 Share January 27, 2013 (edited) If ever there was a back alley fixture its a evergrow. The drivers from alot of chinese factorys are bad to the bone including all kinds of phony Meanwells. The pcbs that these fixture have are crap and the mounting to them is the real problem. 99 PERCENT of chinese emmitters are attached with cheap silicone paste. They are not even touching the pcb/heatsink half the time. The thing they call a heatsink may feel cool but the led can not transfer its heat to the heatsink correctly. Putting a cheap optic even makes it worst because it traps more heat. The whites are a real problem because alot of them are made with a cheap high temp silicone to hold the phosphor on it. What i do to any chinese led that i may use is to attach it to a star first with arctic cement then i solder it. My 420nm were 40 degrees cooler then when i tested them on the stars they came on. The evergrow were horrible a year ago in terms of quaity control the new ones may be better i would just keep in mind how shady alot of these back alley chinese vendors are. I saw a back alley chinese fixture that looked like a evergrow but had a real heatsink and each led was on a star. I cant remember were i saw it but that was interesting because you could add crees or rebels to it real easy. It may seem like i am very negative about evergrows i am not it just is crazy to me to think there is not a night and day difference between a evergrow and a razor. Edited January 27, 2013 by basser9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decadence January 27, 2013 Share January 27, 2013 How many of these have you actually tried and tested? Drivers are drivers. I know plenty of people who have spent loads of money on the best Meanwell drivers on the market just to under-drive them. There is zero advantage to using one driver over another when they are both putting out the same voltage and rated to the same wattage. I worked quite a while in the green design industry and have installed countless LED systems in houses and businesses. After having countless premature driver failures of every single brand available, we settled on Chinese drivers. We still had failures due to volume but when we found this style (generic Chinese, not this "brand"): we never had another failure from a single customer. We have a set of them running in our own shop for four years now run 12 hours a day, 6 days a week. One of them is driven to about 55 watts and the other is running about 40 watts and was added a couple years after when the showroom's LED system was expanded. Addressing the circuit boards, they used to be garbage in the first couple runs but they have since converted over to aluminum boards built by one of only a hand full of companies in China. The Aluminum boards transfer heat quite well. You can identify them by being either white or black. Avoid anything on a green board. The amount of heat transfer lost by using silicone over silver is extremely minimal unless you are dealing with an extremely hot-running device. LED fixtures with fans are cool to the touch unless it is a 50w multi chip or higher. The surface area per watt at that point begins to work against you and damage can ensue. I use silicone paste on every fixture I build. Most of the DIY fixtures which people are running are extremely over-built for no reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k January 27, 2013 Share January 27, 2013 (edited) FWIW, the Evergrow D120's use the white aluminum board. Edited January 27, 2013 by zygote2k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim January 28, 2013 Share January 28, 2013 (edited) Why is nobody considering the aesthetics of the actual fixtures? If you're not putting the fixtures in a canopy there is no contest. If you are putting them in a canopy then two Evergrows and a canopy cost somewhere around $400 plus your labor. The 27" Razor will set you back $500. Edited January 28, 2013 by Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k January 28, 2013 Share January 28, 2013 Basser- Why don't you post up some of your light builds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridetheducati January 28, 2013 Share January 28, 2013 Why is nobody considering the aesthetics of the actual fixtures? If you're not putting the fixtures in a canopy there is no contest. If you are putting them in a canopy then two Evergrows and a canopy cost somewhere around $400 plus your labor. The 27" Razor will set you back $500. Actually, you can get (2) D120 for $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim January 28, 2013 Share January 28, 2013 Actually, you can get (2) D120 for $250. With shopping? You also need to include the cost of building a canopy. My point is that there is a visual component that needs to be considered. My tank is in my living room so appearance matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridetheducati January 28, 2013 Share January 28, 2013 With shopping? You also need to include the cost of building a canopy. My point is that there is a visual component that needs to be considered. My tank is in my living room so appearance matters. $250 includes shipping. Materials to build a 72x36x12 canopy roughly $50-$100, or hang the fixtures from the ceiling, $15 per unit. The Razor may win a few beauty contests but its not enough to compare against Evergrow, Radion, Vegas and AI. Aesthetically, I believe the comparison is between commercial vs DIY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k January 28, 2013 Share January 28, 2013 (edited) after looking at images of the razor, I realized it has one major drawback- it's huge. Evergrows are smaller and look just as nice although different. Both of them have the issue with cords that hang down. When someone makes the power cord integrated into the hanging cord, then I'm in. Edited January 28, 2013 by zygote2k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCReefer1964 January 29, 2013 Share January 29, 2013 (edited) With shopping? You also need to include the cost of building a canopy. My point is that there is a visual component that needs to be considered. My tank is in my living room so appearance matters. Jim I understand your point. It is not located in a man cave/reef. It has to meet the wife's approval being located in a common area. The Maxspect Razors have had great reviews, and results. Looks it would win hands down. The d120s are a better deal and the customization of LED pattern it would not be hard to go to a Ikea or local lighting store and gut the insides of an art deco aluminum fixture. My .02 JIMLIN? Edited January 29, 2013 by DCReefer1964 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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