traveller7
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Posts posted by traveller7
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If interested in some further details, the following are good reads:
http://www.nhm.ku.edu/inverts/ebooks/ch34.html
http://my.fit.edu/~rvw/Lectures/Clonal%20&%20aclonal.htm
Cheers.
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Many species have the ability to reproduce sexually as well as asexually.
Reproduction via division and pedal laceration produces "clones".
They have not found evidence of senescence in anemones, as far as we can measure, they do not age.
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I have only heard of the anemones which use tumbling as a form of locomotion, that appeared quite different. Cool too
I wonder if it would need a specialized tank, say a pseudokreisel.
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Congratulations. Quite an accomplishment.I have had this anem for close to 5 years now.May it naturally divide for you so you can pass part of it along at some point
I have been debating on jump back to with H. magnifica for the last 2 years, I just have not decided I can with their finicky new arrival status that lingers on for up to 6 months.
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H. magnifica tends to wander looking for lighting and flow improvements.
IME, they should be kept under a point light source like metal halides since this tends help keep them in a centrally located spot away from overflows, filter intakes, heaters, etc. I would avoid the even light distribution T5 situation unless you can accommodate the next two scenarios as well.
I would also try to position them on some sort of pedestal away from the sides of tank. They should be forced to have to move downward at least 12" before reaching the bottom. Such a pedestal will again assist in keeping them in one location.
Lastly, they appear to appreciate alternating flow across the top of the pedestal.
Best of luck, they can be quite a handful for even the most experienced anemone keepers.
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A pretty comprehensive and up to date read:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/show...threadid=240158
Have fun, Tomatos are not the worst candidate to practice rearing clowns
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Glad to hear you have the clowns QTing, your previously posted regimen would be perfect for this endeavor.the clownfish are being QT'ed & treated here, and they are about 1"Also I thought that with barebottom she could feed more and siphon the solid waste out without having the Nitrates spike. Emily might be a newbie to the hobby, but she is a very bright girl and I don't think she'd have problems keeping an anenome alive, but the anenome probably wouldn't be added for some time from what I understand with her schedule of the experiment.
With high density clowns and the feeding required to produce maturity, nitrates would not be my major concern, I'd fear ammonia spikes and pH drops. I'd use weekly water changes for Nitrate management and expect them to be much higher than reef conditions.
I am quite sure she could keep an anemone alive, but the tank focus will quickly become what does this anemone need to keep from moving around, shrinking, dying, bleaching, staying out of the HOB filter intake, off the heater, etc. Having an anemone die, move, etc., with established/ing pairs is quite an event and has reintroduced pecking order squabbles among groups of clowns potentially altering the experiment. If the clowns are captive bred, they are likely generations away from being in water with an anemone. They'll still go into one instinctively, but an anemone is not a critical component within the clown pairing/bonding/breeding/gender changing process.
Added benefit of the flower pot, it stays where you put it, does not eat, does not require light, does not die, does not contribute bio load, and best of all: always provides a potential breeding substrate at the target shelter site. Take suitable breeding substrate and "cover" from the picture and the clown colony dynamic is dramatically altered.
Bigger questions, short of demonstrating fertile egg laying, how to baseline a female and male actually exist in the group? F-F, F-juv, and juv-juv "bondings" will skew the results yet are documented clown pairings.
Just when we expect clowns to follow the rules, they throw us a curve. I'd try to reduce the curve chances as much as possible while keeping the majority of the fish alive and healthy for the duration with low maintenance a priority.
Keep in mind, these are just my opinions which are biased and based on my limited experience. Most of my experience is in keeping clowns in groups of 7 or less with the specific intention of pairing for breeding. With my fish, I am attempting to drive the changes in a predictable manner vs. monitoring what nature allows ad hoc. My goal for 7 fish would be "3 breeding pairs and a spare."
All the best.
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Part of the testing is to see if a male will change in the 55 after the female is removed. That will tell me whether they are using visual cues or not. If another male changes, just the sight of the female is not enought to prevent sex change. The experiment will answer a yes or no question.
Sorry, I cn;t figure out how to quote more than one person at a time
my filter is an Aquaclear hang on the bakc filter, sized for a 40-70 gallon tank. I have 2 sets of "cycle guard"(ceramic porus stone that come in the pakage with the filter) and the sponge in. I am not using carbon becaseu I was told it would remove homones from the water.
I have about 10 different sources of published reserch papers about protandric sex change in fish in general, as well as ocllaris clowns specifically. I you guys want the sources( and more details of the project overall, I can post the experimental design and backgroud research up here. I just didn't want to post it w/o interest)
Sorry, st this point I can't change what tank I'm using or what livestock I have, as the school has already paid for it. I went with what was shown to be the easiest to maintain and keep alive that I researched. Thanks for all the help so far. If i didn't answer your question, please just wait until I can look at the posts again or if you think I'm too slow, repost it. I'm already loving this site!!!!!
As long as it is acceptable to allow the potential for multiple males or females, 55gal will be fine and the larger body of water should be helpful in keeping water stability.
Since I have been babbling so much in this thread already, a few more random thoughts before I shut up
- feeding regimen will impact the outcome, it takes quite a bit of food to support gender shift. Low amounts of food, will "artificially" restrict growth, gender changes, etc.
- because you have 2 years of time and the outcome of multiple pairs is acceptable, I would consider buying fairly small clowns to start (ocellaris can go from egg to breeding in <2yrs)
- I'd work with a local source of clowns, have them quarantined and treated at the shop, then introduce all 12 simultaneously to avoid future introduction of disease.
- I'd plan on introducing a single clay flower pot to contribute toward the pairing/breeding mechanism. (I'd skip the anemone factor, they require more husbandry, light, food, etc.)
For tracking the project, you might want 2 threads on the message board: 1 for general project discussion, 1 strictly for tracking progress/results. IMHO, a single thread will get quite cluttered over the years
Again, best of luck with the project
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I am not sure I understand the hypothesis and specific test set up enough to answer that question. I am a bit concerned about the species selection; common A. ocellaris are quite colonial and not as representative for the majority of clown species. To force a more typical hierarchy, I'd hedge toward a more constricted space. Maybe even as small as 24gal H with a wet/dry filter to handle the bio load. I'd need a bit more information and to think about it a bit. Variables are significant and are going to affect the outcome dramatically.Traveller7, What do you think would be a good tank size if the test only wanted to produce one female at a time?
Yes. But, given the proposed set up and clown species, it would likely skew results dramatically and injects difficulty in general husbandry. A similar effect, if desired can be achieved with a clay flower pot or three.Would an anemone added to the tank change the dynamics at all?A few more random thoughts:
- Make sure the tank is tightly covered, there is going to be some chasing going on and expect jumpers.
- Keep protective cover to a single location to force tight grouping (powerheads, heaters, overflow boxes, etc. will all become "cover")
- Starting with a breeding pair of A. ocellaris and a 6" flower pot as a baseline, then adding 10 juveniles (<1" and even better if <.75") might force a single pair structure.
- Tossing B&W ocellaris into the mix would likely skew results vs. orange&white ocellaris.
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A few things to think about:
- Clownfish pecking order includes not only the female, but also the male. (males have killed more of my aspiring juveniles then my females)
- Might want to assume the smallest remain juveniles vs. male/female for hormone testing
- Might want to plan for more then one actual pair in a 55gal, up to three pairs even with a bunch of well beaten juveniles.
IME, 55gal might not be the best size tank for this experiment with common A. ocellaris. They have been known to stay in fairly stable large groups for quite some time. Note an exception, B&W ocellaris have been much less likely to live in large groups.
Might want to check out this thread on RC that started with 27 clowns over 2+ years:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1259398
Sounds like a fun and educational project, best of luck.
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Missed this event the first time around in the last year
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Everyone knows the positive reasons to quarantine fish before adding them to the DT. What if you lack a QT? What steps do you take in order to reduce the risk of introducing disease?
Thoughts please.
Ron
Simple: Don't bring the fish or coral home if you dont have QT. There is no instant dip, or bath, for the potential pathogens short of killing the new specimen. Anything short of 4-6 weeks in QT is gambling.
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That is a fine shovel indeed. How many acres do you have to justify that toy?
After we just cleared the driveway for the third time and the snow plow piled us in for the second....I only need my driveway to justify that toy this year
fwiw: 4 wheel drive or not, if you dont have ground clearance, best to stay home. Pushed and dug out a few of the explorer type vehicles this afternoon that just packed up and settled down on the pan.
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Power outage last night from ~930pm to 1230am, but UPS, battery operated pumps all did their jobs as designed. Of course that is good, because this old man is too tired from shoveling to perform emergency tank work :D
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The clowns kinda call this one spot on the right side of the tank home. It is away from the powerhead but close to the bottom filter intake. I will try to figure out something. So there is no way of placing the anemone at the place I want?! I have read somewhere that if you place the anemone on the spot you want and wait for the settle a while and feed it, the anemone is more likely not to roam.
M.
They sense lighting, water conditions, flow, and other simple variables. Feeding an anemone the first week during acclimation is not a great plan and will have no bearing on it staying in a location. Worst case, they'll spit the food out while you are not watching and contribute to poor water quality. You feel good they "ate" they are irritated and pollute the water.
Control the conditions, you can keep them in one spot with a high percentage of success. Unfortunately, you end up decorating and designing a tank for the anemone and adding a couple of clowns. The anemone is much more difficult to please in this regard.
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I understand. I was thinking of a nice, medium flow corner, not in the front but towards the back of the tank, shielded by the rock. Obviously the anemone will determine the spot as far as I know. OR is there any way I can make the anemone stay at the spot i want? I had bad experiences with a roaming anemone before.
A roaming anemone is an unhappy anemone.
A BTA will typically not release from hard substrate(Live Rock, glass, clay flower pots, etc) unless something is really wrong. I have yet to have them climb down a large column and cross sand while water conditions, lighting, predators, etc., were all in check.
Try a central column under your best lighting with a mix of flow options so the anemone can choose. It should stay on the column. I would also expect it to climb higher toward the lighting as it acclimates to the tank. Depending on the source of anemone, it may be bleached, adapted to more or less lighting, so plan on it moving around the column a bit.
I keep mine under 70wt halides, more to keep them in one place vs. the need for halides. They park right under the lighting while the outsides of the tank are essentially dark. A feature difficult to replicate with tubes of any sort.
Cheers.
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What do you mean by introduction? The fishes are already in the tank. how should i introduce the anemone you think?
Depends on the decor of the tank and what the clowns call home today. If they hang out by the power heads, filter intakes, etc., that can present a problem. Anemeones should be kept far away from such things, but new clowns seem to gravitate toward such locations. Cover the intakes, overflows, heaters, etc., or be prepared for bad news.
If they call a corner, cave or rock home, start by placing the anemone there on hard substrate, glass, clay flower pot, etc.
My preference is to establish the anemone(s) prior to introducing clowns, but with patience they will figure it out even if they have established prior hiding areas or alternative hosts.
Good luck.
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They are wild and very young
Also, not a variable.
Clowns begin hosting right after meta stage, less then a half inch in nominal length.
Selecting a proper anemone, providing a proper environment, will result in them diving in almost immediately.
fwiw: Natural ocellaris hosting anemones are extremely difficult to maintain in captivity, best to start with BTAs and let them figure it out. Some creative decorating can assist in the process. Until such a time, they are fine without an anemone.
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False.If the clowns are tank raised, more than likely they will never host in an anemone.Anemone and Clown selection, introduction, and the tank environment are all key in our captive spaces choosing to host/not host. Tank raised or wild caught is nearly a meaningless variable.
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Tunze osmolator has yet to fail in all the years they have been on my systems.
Friends have blamed, snails, algae, low quality check valves, power outages, and so many other issues I can no longer count...yet my numerous float+optical interrupts have yet to fail to maintain top of in years.
Lots of things work for days, weeks, months, and even years, but one top off system is engineered to overcome the indiscriminant deployment of reefers: Tunze. The alternatives are merely waiting for an excuse and reefers justification for failure vs expenditure.
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Juvies are not real threatening to an established pair. Figure the ocellaris will ignore it until it becomes a meaningful pest. If the male ocellaris keeps the juvie skunk in check it will actually stay juvenile. All other things equal, I'd expect the one on the other side to put on a growth spurt toward female if it gets enough food.Thanks for the expertise, Scott, always appreciated! Anyway, one of the skunks has hosted in the GBTA I placed on the left side of the tank and the other one is back up in the corner of the right side of the tank. I'm hoping it decides to move back to the left side where it was yesterday. I am now feeding across the tank, but concentrating larger food in the same place I always fed.
Skunks and Black&Whites are both quite finicky breeders even in natural pairs, "some day" might require quite a few years of patienceAlso, now that you mentioned cross breeding, wouldn't it be funny to see the cross of a pink skunk and a black ocellaris? Imagine what that hybrid would look like! May have to try that some day! I am quite confident you can pull it off Cheers.
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From the picture, looks like type of sponge.
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Cosmetics is a small factor with clowns, the behavior will trigger a reaction: hosting, eating behavior, swim style, lack of proper submission moves, etc. That is why there are so many naturally occurring hybrids with species that look nothing alike, i.e. A. chrysopterus and A. sadaracinos.I was really thinking I would end up having to pull them immediately, but they seem to be doing just fine so far, no aggression from the ocellaris, perhaps because they are so different in appearance?Skunks as a general rule tend to host quickly, almost any hosting anemone species. As they mature into breeding stages(1yr?), they will defend home anemones in prime breeding locations extremely aggressively for their size. In addition, they will push other similar sized species pairs off their anemones in take over attempts of better locations.
Ocellaris tend to be fearless, but are not the best defenders vs aggressive clowns. Both pink and orange skunks even moved my giant B&W ocellaris pairs out of anemone colonies. Each time, the skunks anemone had moved, was injured, etc. The Ocellaris had no problem keeping morays, tusk fish, triggers, etc., away from their anemones, but were unable to fend off the skunks over time.
Odds are, you will not have a murder on your hands but with species in question, keep healthy anemone colonies at opposite ends of the tank. Neither species will drift far from "home" if the anemones are healthy, provide enough cover, enough food comes by, and the space offers a breeding substrate. If skunk end of the tank has heavy traffic, add a flower pot to provide extra privacy during breeding. Because of the home body nature of both species, they are one of the few that can be "predictable" in mixed clown pair environments.
Best of luck
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For that length of time, it is almost certainly a smasher vs spearer. Fish will not likely be its primary choice, although mine enjoy pieces of silversides/lancefish the anemones don
foxface vs gorgonia?
in General Discussion
Mine ate (4) of a very rarely imported, as in handfuls ever, Japanese anemone. Quite a disappointment.