Jump to content

Apex vs Apexel. What do I need salinity and orp probes for anyway?


dante411x

Recommended Posts

I went on a bit of a rant. Skip to last sentence if you want to. That should sum it up nicely.

 

So, after a week of glorious use my IM Hydrofill ATO failed. Multiple times the probes just didn't register that they were both dry and one time they didn't register that they were both wet.... Overall not a pleasant experience. And since that wonderful POS is now on the way back to BRS to hopefully die a prolonged death I was thinking of replacing it with a different ATO system...

 

Then, when I was looking at the prices of most (150-200) I realized that I could look at this situation in a different light. Instead of "ugh I need to spend $200 more on a stupid ATO" I can say "hey, I get a $200 discount off an Apex!!!!"

 

And that's when the problems started. First came the convince the wife that spending 500-800 is a wonderful idea. That took a while. With that hurdle out of the way I went on BRS website and immediately proceeded to add the $800 Apex to my cart and I almost made it all the way to the checkout. But then I remembered that there was also the EL option for $500. And I got curious. What's missing from the big, bad, do it all unit to make it $300 cheaper. 

 

Easy. ORP and Salinity probes. And a built in breakout box. 

 

So. At first I thought "I'm a professional. I need to know these readings. I need to see the charts. I WILL MONITOR ALL BECAUSE I'M A MARINE BIOLOGIST AND I NEED TO KNOW IT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

Then I remembered that no, I'm not a marine biologist. I have no clue what ORP even is and while I do monitor salinity, I have a pretty handy refractometer and calibrating solution. 

 

So I did research. Read a bunch of articles on what ORP is and does and why monitoring it is a good idea. Looked into salinity swings and monitoring them and ... well... yeah. Seems kinda dumb. My salinity doesn't swing wildly. And I could just add a failsafe to how long the pump will run instead of using a (what seems to be highly susceptible to problems) salinity probe to control that. And ORP... while it's an adorable little graph, I will never know what to do with it. Do I start a ritual next to the tank when it drops, in hopes that the reducers make a comeback? Sacrifice a goat for the great war? Etc.

 

Anyway. That's the long story of me trying to figure out why I should spend $300 more on a couple probes that I don't know what to do with other than look at a graph and try to look professional while I explain to my wife that this particular thing means that I still have no clue why I bought it. 

 

Am I missing something? Is there something WILDLY useful that makes people spend the extra dough? Is there something that I can control with an apex if I have a salinity and ORP probe that I can't control otherwise? Something useful anyway?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope. You're not missing a thing as far as ORP and Salinity are concerned. But the $800 version also has built in wireless control for lights made by various manufacturers. I'm not sure which, though. But, I use their WXM module on my Apex Classic to connect to my Radions and my Vortechs which I find is a nice convenience. If that's included in the $800 package, it may provide value. However, a Q&A on BRS indicates that you'd still need a WXM module to control these Ecotech devices. So, from a "wireless control of lighting" angle, it's unclear what the Apex does vs the ApexEL.

 

As for ORP and salinity...

 

I monitor ORP, but you can do so using the second pH port on the Apex Classic if you really want it. You just program/define it as an ORP input rather than pH and that's that. That second port, though, is not on the ApexEL. You'd have to add a PM1 module and ORP probe to get that capability. I started monitoring ORP when I was dosing ozone as a monitor to keep from overdoing it. However, in a stable system without anomalies, the pretty graphs you get are pretty much just the reverse of your pH graph. That is, at night when your pH drops, ORP rises; and during the day it's the reverse. Sudden changes in ORP can tell you when something unusual is changing in your system - such as when a large amount of organic matter starts to decay (e.g. large fish dies or maybe it's a food spill that you're not home to see). But, for most people ORP is not really needed or the expense justifiable. And, if you need to use that second pH probe port for, say, a calcium reactor, you just add the PM1 module ($85) and an ORP probe ($50).

 

As for salinity, that's another personal preference as to whether or not you want to add monitoring to your setup. Certainly, if your ATO fails either way (open or closed), the salinity probe can detect it. For example, say that the ATO fails such that your top off is continuously on - or there's a leak in the system somewhere and the ATO is compensating as the level falls. In this case, the risks include water on the floor and a tank crash. With the salinity probe in the system, you can detect when the salinity falls below some level and send out an alarm & shut power down to the ATO pump. Likewise, if the ATO runs out of fresh water, the salinity in the tank climbs and you can flag that and send out an alarm. Salinity probes can also be used to implement a closed-loop control top-off approach: Salinity falls - top off with salt water; salinity rises - top off with fresh water. You can extend this idea further to implement an automatic, salinity-controlled water change, too.

 

The economics of the salinity probe will undoubtedly factor into whether it's a good investment or not, despite it offering some risk reduction and other conveniences. First, the probe requires a special interface (PM2) that costs extra ($86). Second, the probe is a consumable - that is, it doesn't last forever - and costs $125. 

 

To round it out, the breakout box can also be added to the regular Apex for another $35. And, rather than being built-in, you can remote it where you need it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks! That’s good to hear that I’m not too crazy. I realize the benefits of the salinity probe but for my system they are not very likely. The ato container is 1/20 of total water volume and I was actually thinking of adding an alert if the ato pump runs for longer than X seconds (x being whatever the average full time will be plus 10). Which would effectively do the same thing as the salinity alert if ato sticks open.

 

The slow leak and ato topping it off is certainly not something I can prevent without the probe but since the tank is an all in one with nothing hanging off of it I’m willing to risk it. If I have a slow leak that will mean that the tank itself cracked. Hopefully that’s something I can notice.

 

Edit: the ato container running dry.. I was actually going to throw a couple float switches in it and program that to send me alerts. That seems like it would be a lot more effective than waiting for salinity to rise enough to alert me.

 

Edit 2: I don’t even know where to begin for salinity controlled water changes. That sounds super cool but.. honestly I’d be too worried about the probe going haywire to allow that much control of the tank. Plus, I can do automatic (ish) water changes with some extra float switches here and there. But either way, water changes are easy with this tank. I wasn’t planning on automating them.

 

I didn’t see the difference in lighting control.. but the lights are kessil a360we, so wireless capability isn’t really necessary for me.

 

And I didn’t realize I could use the second ph input to monitor orp. That’s pretty cool. So, if for some reason in the future I decide to add ozone, that’s not a terribly difficult probe to add.

 

All that said, it seems that I’m pretty justified in just getting the cheaper version and a breakout box... (also I actually really like the fact that it’ll be separate. There’s a good chance I would have bought a breakout box anyway just for that even with the $800 one).

 

Cool. Yay saved money. I’ll put that in a fund for when that Trident finally comes out lol

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Float switches would work fine to flag the container going dry and sending you alerts.

 

For salinity controlled water changes, you'd have to add hardware and sensors to meter out a certain amount of water to both remove and add. Some people use dual headed peristaltic pumps but other approaches are feasible. After the coarse (but pretty accurate) water change is performed, one could use selective top-off to dial in the salinity. Selective top-off is probably a tad more useful than you'd expect. For example, your skimmer removes not only skimmate but water (and therefore salt), too. The ATO compensates for this loss by adding freshwater which, over the long haul, reduces your salinity. A sensor-equipped Apex could detect this reduction and top the tank off from a saltwater storage tank rather than the freshwater tank to dial salinity back in.

 

In my case, I just check salinity every once in a while and dump a few gallons of saltwater into the sump to compensate when salinity drops. Simple and not precise, but cheap and effective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Float switches would work fine to flag the container going dry and sending you alerts.
 
For salinity controlled water changes, you'd have to add hardware and sensors to meter out a certain amount of water to both remove and add. Some people use dual headed peristaltic pumps but other approaches are feasible. After the coarse (but pretty accurate) water change is performed, one could use selective top-off to dial in the salinity. Selective top-off is probably a tad more useful than you'd expect. For example, your skimmer removes not only skimmate but water (and therefore salt), too. The ATO compensates for this loss by adding freshwater which, over the long haul, reduces your salinity. A sensor-equipped Apex could detect this reduction and top the tank off from a saltwater storage tank rather than the freshwater tank to dial salinity back in.
 
In my case, I just check salinity every once in a while and dump a few gallons of saltwater into the sump to compensate when salinity drops. Simple and not precise, but cheap and effective.

Gotcha. Yeah lol, that sounds way too fancy. I’m going to go with a similar plan of check salinity once in a while and add some saltwater. :)

But it’s good to know that the salinity probe does have a decent use. I mean, I figured that would be possible. It’s just.. idk. I’d be too worried about something causing a bad reading while I’m away and the system doing something crazy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, dante411x said:


Gotcha. Yeah lol, that sounds way too fancy. I’m going to go with a similar plan of check salinity once in a while and add some saltwater. :)

But it’s good to know that the salinity probe does have a decent use. I mean, I figured that would be possible. It’s just.. idk. I’d be too worried about something causing a bad reading while I’m away and the system doing something crazy.

The biggest problem that I have (that's just my way of saying I have a personal preference) is the consumable nature of the salinity probes. At $125, it's 2.5x more expensive than most other probes.  I would expect it to last longer than the 18 months of service that I'd likely get out of it. Second, the web is full of stories where they can't get the probe to calibrate or to maintain calibration. Some have good luck with it, I'm sure. We just don't hear from them as much I guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(edited)
5 minutes ago, Origami said:

The biggest problem that I have (that's just my way of saying I have a personal preference) is the consumable nature of the salinity probes. At $125, it's 2.5x more expensive than most other probes.  I would expect it to last longer than the 18 months of service that I'd likely get out of it. Second, the web is full of stories where they can't get the probe to calibrate or to maintain calibration. Some have good luck with it, I'm sure. We just don't hear from them as much I guess.

Yeah, I watched a few videos, there was a twitch stream too I saw that was saying how to fix some of the problems with it. Seems that microbubbles are a huge one. And in a nuvo 20... unless someone does magic to wish them away, there's no way I'll eliminate them from the back entirely. 

 

honestly, I didn't even realize that they only had an 18 month service life. It makes sense now that I think about how they work but that's a little.. crazy. 

 

I'm pretty sure I'm completely sold on the cheaper version at this point. 540 vs 800 is quite a difference. And I do want the new one.. thought about snagging one of the classics that keep popping up for sale here or on r2r but if that Trident thing is actually real and not yet another hoax, I'd rather have the unit that will work with it. Thanks for your help Tom! I would have been trying to figure this out for another couple weeks and probably just order the more expensive one in the end if I wasn't completely sure. 

Edited by dante411x
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe to make your decision easier... the Apex salinity probes are junk (loooots of threads out there on it.) They go haywire in no time. It was neat for a couple weeks until my salinity went to 55ppt. Ha. No.

ORP was interesting for a while to watch, but then I remember that my coral and fish are way more interesting.

But, the Apexel didn't exist when I had to buy mine. If I had to do it again, I'd save the money. For reference, I have my tanks far away from any hardwired connectivity points, run an ATO, have controllable LEDs, have dosing, have MP40s controlled, have a skimmate locker shutoff, skimmer cleaner, and on and on it goes. I run an Apex Jr on my QT tanks. Bottom line, any Apex is better than no Apex!

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m in the minority. I really like my salinity (conductivity) probe. It is sensitive enough to show me when my salinity is dropping. I don’t have wild swings like some folks report. If you decide to get one, make sure you start the calibration while it is bone dry. Also run the cable away from power wires.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...