Copper levels

[Still_human]

I'm doing an introduction 2month copper treatment after finally adding my new angels, but I want to be 100% sure it's effective enough--what are the ideal copper levels? I'm using cupramine. I remember there's a "standard" medication level, and i was told that some people double it, which I did after the oodinium or brooklynella murders, but I can't remember now(it's been the better part of a year, i think...maybe around 9+ months?). I think ideal/double was 50/100, but I don't want to end up having done 2 months of innefective treatment, and still be at serious risk.

I got the API, and seachem copper tests, which are always off from each other by about .50ppm I believe, so I'm never 100% sure where I'm ever actually at, so I try to keep in mind I could be anywhere within that range. Of course I'm never totally sure anyway, cause the API instructions don't say if ur supposed to use the color visible while holding the vial in the air above the card(I believe that's correct), or against the card, which makes a significant difference(maybe from shadow/no shadow?), and the seachem test assumes you can eyeball the result from along a fading color scale where probably only a computer could differenciate anything within .50ppm!

[WheresTheReef]

I found that following the directions from cupramine gave me the desired levels of 0.5 mg/L. I typically would compare my seachem copper test sample to thier reference sample instead of just the color card. It helps to have them side-by-side and have good overhead lightning. If I remember correctly, the test procedure for the reference sample is slightly different than your test water.

 

I wouldn't double the copper levels. Also 30 days should be long enough to pass a couple life cycles of parasites such as ich. Copper works on the free-swimming stage and helps to prevent reinfection. Remember to dose copper to any water change water. Also, remove the fish to a clean tank before dropping the copper levels.

[cpu933k]

I highly recommend getting the Hanna Copper Checker for accurate copper readings. You don't want to overdose otherwise you risk killing your fish. Typically copper treatment is for 30 days, not 2 months. Refer to this link on R2R for copper treatment:

 

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-treatment.193343/

[Still_human]

13 hours ago, WheresTheReef said:

I found that following the directions from cupramine gave me the desired levels of 0.5 mg/L. I typically would compare my seachem copper test sample to thier reference sample instead of just the color card. It helps to have them side-by-side and have good overhead lightning. If I remember correctly, the test procedure for the reference sample is slightly different than your test water.

 

I wouldn't double the copper levels. Also 30 days should be long enough to pass a couple life cycles of parasites such as ich. Copper works on the free-swimming stage and helps to prevent reinfection. Remember to dose copper to any water change water. Also, remove the fish to a clean tank before dropping the copper levels.

 

You mention ich, but I'm treating for brooklynella and oodinium. Would 30days still be sufficient for those? 

You said you compare the seachem sample(results?)to their sample, not the color card, but the color range is so slight, it could easily be off be .25, maybe even more, without me being able to see a real difference, so dont you(individually you, not "you" collectively)still need to compare how much of a ppm difference whatever color difference would be? for me a noticeable difference could totally be .25ppm to maybe .40ppm-ish.

 

Oh yeah, and their sample was definitely off from what it was supposed to be. Definitely more than .25 off. Maybe even .50ppm--I haven't used the seachem in awhile, it's been too difficult, and potentially unreliable in my experience.

 

Have you tried API? Do you know if you hold the tube on or off the card?

 

 

Ok, so what do you guys think? This is why I'm still worried, even though I did what should be a very sufficient treatment cycle before, and so far I believe pretty good(few weeks)cycle. Those tiny white spots on my hippo. They're just tiny white dots, and they are always there, but different places, mostly on the black. They range in size from what you can see, to almost too small to see. I can't help thinking it's a constant display of oodinium or whatever. No matter the copper treatment, time period, or levels, they're ALWAYS there, always within a similar number range, but different places over time. Most of the time they look more ich/parasite-y

[wangspeed]

I agree with using the Hanna copper checker. It is absolutely invaluable for QT. It really has changed copper QT for hobbyists. I also recommend using chelated copper, like Copper Power. Not ionic, like Cupramine.

30 days is more than sufficient. Honestly, I only do it for 14-21 in Copper Power at 1.75 ppm.

As far as your hippo goes, I can’t tell from the picture, but it could also be either flukes or lympho. The former requires meds, like API Genera Cure. The later just requires a healthy environment and time.

[Still_human]

2 hours ago, wangspeed said:

I agree with using the Hanna copper checker. It is absolutely invaluable for QT. It really has changed copper QT for hobbyists. I also recommend using chelated copper, like Copper Power. Not ionic, like Cupramine.

30 days is more than sufficient. Honestly, I only do it for 14-21 in Copper Power at 1.75 ppm.

As far as your hippo goes, I can’t tell from the picture, but it could also be either flukes or lympho. The former requires meds, like API Genera Cure. The later just requires a healthy environment and time.

 I'm just super nervous, now. I finally just got another goldflake and bandit, so I'm not gonna take a single chance! I was told by someone that they prefer to do 40-60 day copper treatments with most risky fish when they first come in, so I figure if it won't hurt, itll either help or do nothing!

 

Ok cool, I'll hafta pick some up! I hate the idea of stressing and getting him scratched all to H-E-double hockey sticks by catching him, but I should remove some and see about checking under a microscope! It would be nice to be able to relax:/

 

[wangspeed]

Well, copper is toxic. It's just that it's toxic to the parasites before the fish, usually... I wouldn't exceed 30 days. Beyond that, observational quarantine. At some point, treating with Prazipro or API General Cure is also a good idea to de-worm.

[Still_human]

3 hours ago, wangspeed said:

I agree with using the Hanna copper checker. It is absolutely invaluable for QT. It really has changed copper QT for hobbyists. I also recommend using chelated copper, like Copper Power. Not ionic, like Cupramine.

30 days is more than sufficient. Honestly, I only do it for 14-21 in Copper Power at 1.75 ppm.

As far as your hippo goes, I can’t tell from the picture, but it could also be either flukes or lympho. The former requires meds, like API Genera Cure. The later just requires a healthy environment and time.

Oh wow, are Hanna instruments really that accurate??? If so, I'd love to get a bunch of those over dealing with all the chemical tests! They have them for EVERYTHING!!!

[wangspeed]

Well, don't get the one for calcium. It is finicky. I got pretty good with it, but it's still a pain compared to a normal Ca test kit. Given how huge the window can be for Ca, I choose to just use a normal titration based test.

[A.ocellaris]

@littlelise1985

[WheresTheReef]

7 hours ago, Still_human said:

You mention ich, but I'm treating for brooklynella and oodinium. Would 30days still be sufficient for those? 

You said you compare the seachem sample(results?)to their sample, not the color card, but the color range is so slight, it could easily be off be .25, maybe even more, without me being able to see a real difference, so dont you(individually you, not "you" collectively)still need to compare how much of a ppm difference whatever color difference would be? for me a noticeable difference could totally be .25ppm to maybe .40ppm-ish.

 

Oh yeah, and their sample was definitely off from what it was supposed to be. Definitely more than .25 off. Maybe even .50ppm--I haven't used the seachem in awhile, it's been too difficult, and potentially unreliable in my experience.

 

Have you tried API? Do you know if you hold the tube on or off the card?

 

Oodinium would be ok. Copper not likely to help if it’s brook. You could try other treatments such as https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/brooklynella.247938/ if it fits the symptoms. Sounds like copper isn’t either effective or your levels are not correct. If the copper levels fall below therapeutic levels even for a small amount of time it can result in reinfection. Also, are you running the tank fallow for the appropriate timeframe (e.g 72 days)? If not then cysts can reinfect your fish upon reintroduction.

 

I have used several seachem copper tests. I have had some good printed reference cards, but also some poorly printed ones that I tossed out. Hanna option does sound good, but I’ve never tried it. Never tried API test. You could have a bad/expired test as well.

 

7 hours ago, wangspeed said:

I agree with using the Hanna copper checker. It is absolutely invaluable for QT. It really has changed copper QT for hobbyists. I also recommend using chelated copper, like Copper Power. Not ionic, like Cupramine.

30 days is more than sufficient. Honestly, I only do it for 14-21 in Copper Power at 1.75 ppm.

As far as your hippo goes, I can’t tell from the picture, but it could also be either flukes or lympho. The former requires meds, like API Genera Cure. The later just requires a healthy environment and time.

I agree with the 30 day time frame. I feel 14 days is cutting it close as some parasites may hold on a little longer. It also depends on the tank temperature. If you transfer the fish out into another sterile tank for observation then it might be ok. I guess I just prefer to wait to make myself feel better. I’ve only had one fish with lymphocystis. IME it grew into larger clumps and typically would be seen on the fins as well.

 

5 hours ago, Still_human said:

I'm just super nervous, now. I finally just got another goldflake and bandit, so I'm not gonna take a single chance! I was told by someone that they prefer to do 40-60 day copper treatments with most risky fish when they first come in, so I figure if it won't hurt, itll either help or do nothing!

Hope everything goes well. As stated above, I wouldn’t leave fish in copper that long.

[Still_human]

16 hours ago, WheresTheReef said:

Hope everything goes well. As stated above, I wouldn’t leave fish in copper that long.

Is it actually dangerous to keep them in copper for long periods? Would 60days be a "long period"? I guess with a the advice about it, I'll be comfortable enough at less than 60, but I think I'd feel too uncomfortable at less than 45. Also, my water is definitely warm, so the stupid jerk's life cycles should be on the much quicker side.

 

what would be considered the minimum therapeutic level? I'm almost positive its never gone below .50. I know the treatment needs to b started over if it falls below, so Ive tried to be careful about that, even with the inconsistencies and difficulties with pinpointing the levels.

[WheresTheReef]

1 hour ago, Still_human said:

Is it actually dangerous to keep them in copper for long periods? Would 60days be a "long period"? I guess with a the advice about it, I'll be comfortable enough at less than 60, but I think I'd feel too uncomfortable at less than 45. Also, my water is definitely warm, so the stupid jerk's life cycles should be on the much quicker side.

 

what would be considered the minimum therapeutic level? I'm almost positive its never gone below .50. I know the treatment needs to b started over if it falls below, so Ive tried to be careful about that, even with the inconsistencies and difficulties with pinpointing the levels.

 

If copper is effective against what you’re dealing with (e.g. ich or velvet) then there’s no benefit to a longer timeframe. Copper is only effective against the free-swimming phase of the parasite and keeps the fish from being reinfected. At 14 days any ich or velvet trophonts should of dropped off. That’s why wangspeed stated that he does 14-21 days. The fish should then be removed and placed into another QT before dropping the copper levels in the treatment tank. You should also run your DT fallow to ensure any cysts have hatched and died off w/o the presence of any host for the parasite to attach to.

 

If you haven’t read https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-treatment.193343/ then now is a good time. The toughest part of treating infected fish is identifying what the issue is. Treatments are pretty well documented in the most common cases.

 

If you kept levels in the therapeutic range (given in the link above), then copper should have worked if it was going to. This is true if you prevented reinfection. I have read of cases where some people had better luck with chelated copper. However, I strongly recommend really looking at the symptoms and trying to identify what you’re dealing with. Unfortunately, I don’t think that most of us are qualified enough to be 100% certain. You may need to perform a series of treatments to see if you can nip this in the butt. This may require you to catch and treat all your fish to ensure you eradicate the issue.

[WheresTheReef]

You can also look at https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/ as another alternative, but it is much more difficult to find.

[Still_human]

Does anyone know what the cupramine therapeutic level ACTUALLY is? I'm seeing contrary information, and info I know to be false.

actually, I guess I should find this out first--is ppm and mg/L the same thing? Cause if they're different then the info could be right, and I just have no idea what the amounts mean. I don't think Ive ever seen "mg/L" before, but it seems to be used more than ppm from what I'm seeing now.

My current level, going by my new Hanna(very cool, but not as cool as how I thought it worked), is .86ppm of cupramine, which is significantly lower than it had been for definitely many days at some point(Im guessing maybe even upto 2x this), so clearly the idea that a lethal dose, or seemingly even a dangerous dose is .80ppm, seems silly! They say not eating is a first sign of danger, yet my fish, including apparently somewhat difficult fish to get to start eating, which starting eating within hours of introduction(during the tanks just-to-b-safe-for-new-fish 2nd treatment--i know, starting the clock over), and even piggishly started taking pellets and flakes for its first time, within 24hrs, are, and have the entire time, throughout all levels, all acting happy as clams(clams that are not in copper!), so I have to take any info from that/those source(s) with a large grain of salt, because everytime Ive ever used copper(almost always cupramine)it must have at least briefly reached upto around the same levels as this treatment.

Id imagine it's at least safe to assume that i haven't gone below the therapeutic level at any point.

On 1/1/2019 at 4:43 PM, WheresTheReef said:

The fish should then be removed and placed into another QT before dropping the copper levels in the treatment tank

Why would dropping the levels with the fish in the tank be bad? Wouldn't a slow decrease of copper levels be better than a sudden elimination? Or at least be worse? These fish are all in their display tank, so I don't actually have a choice on that, anyway. I don't have another tank big enough to put them in, at the moment. Plus I figured it was a good idea to treat their tank to kill off everything that could be hunkered down anywhere in the system, anyway. I have newer fish in a QT/intro-treatment tank, but that's cause they can fit, and also from this point I don't want to start all over with a brand new treatment cycle in the tank.

[wangspeed]

Does anyone know what the cupramine therapeutic level ACTUALLY is? I'm seeing contrary information, and info I know to be false.
actually, I guess I should find this out first--is ppm and mg/L the same thing? Cause if they're different then the info could be right, and I just have no idea what the amounts mean. I don't think Ive ever seen "mg/L" before, but it seems to be used more than ppm from what I'm seeing now.
My current level, going by my new Hanna(very cool, but not as cool as how I thought it worked), is .86ppm of cupramine, which is significantly lower than it had been for definitely many days at some point(Im guessing maybe even upto 2x this), so clearly the idea that a lethal dose, or seemingly even a dangerous dose is .80ppm, seems silly! They say not eating is a first sign of danger, yet my fish, including apparently somewhat difficult fish to get to start eating, which starting eating within hours of introduction(during the tanks just-to-b-safe-for-new-fish 2nd treatment--i know, starting the clock over), and even piggishly started taking pellets and flakes for its first time, within 24hrs, are, and have the entire time, throughout all levels, all acting happy as clams(clams that are not in copper!), so I have to take any info from that/those source(s) with a large grain of salt, because everytime Ive ever used copper(almost always cupramine)it must have at least briefly reached upto around the same levels as this treatment.
Id imagine it's at least safe to assume that i haven't gone below the therapeutic level at any point.
Why would dropping the levels with the fish in the tank be bad? Wouldn't a slow decrease of copper levels be better than a sudden elimination? Or at least be worse? These fish are all in their display tank, so I don't actually have a choice on that, anyway. I don't have another tank big enough to put them in, at the moment. Plus I figured it was a good idea to treat their tank to kill off everything that could be hunkered down anywhere in the system, anyway. I have newer fish in a QT/intro-treatment tank, but that's cause they can fit, and also from this point I don't want to start all over with a brand new treatment cycle in the tank.

Yikes. You are way overdosed at this point. This is why the Hanna is invaluable. Drop the level immediately. The warning about dropping the level is more in reference to the fact that in case the QT had pathogens, you would want to move the fish to an observation tank before bringing the level to non-therapeutic levels. That could lead to re-infection.

Cupramine is .4-.5. mg/L! It is ionic copper and is somewhat harder on fish than a chelated copper product, like Copper Power. Anyways, you already have it, so use it, but consider a switch in the future.

Also, if you treat with copper in your display, you may have difficulty with invertebrates like snails and coral, even after you think you have eliminated copper. It leaches into rocks and sand.

[WheresTheReef]

22 minutes ago, wangspeed said:

 

 

Yikes. You are way overdosed at this point. This is why the Hanna is invaluable. Drop the level immediately. The warning about dropping the level is more in reference to the fact that in case the QT had pathogens, you would want to move the fish to an observation tank before bringing the level to non-therapeutic levels. That could lead to re-infection.

Cupramine is .4-.5. mg/L! It is ionic copper and is somewhat harder on fish than a chelated copper product, like Copper Power. Anyways, you already have it, so use it, but consider a switch in the future.

Also, if you treat with copper in your display, you may have difficulty with invertebrates like snails and coral, even after you think you have eliminated copper. It leaches into rocks and sand.

 

 

+1

 

“Milligram per L is a unit of concentration often used for chemicals in aquaria. For chemical concentrations in freshwater, 1 mg/L is approximately 1 ppm (= 1 mg/kg). For chemical concentrations in seawater, where 1 L weighs approximately 1.023 kg, 1 mg/L is approximately 0.978 ppm (= 0.978 mg/kg).” http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/rhf/index.php#ppm

 

For the sake of your fish please take caution with copper treatments. Copper is tolerated at certain levels, but it is toxic. Copper should be maintained at 0.4-0.5 as they have been shown to be effective for treatment. Cupramine states that levels up to 0.8 are safe, but that is almost double what is needed for treatment. Just because your fish are not currently showing signs of stress (e.g. not eating, gasping), it doesn’t mean you are not causing harm to them. For example you can cause long term damage to their organs.

 

Treatment in your tank is not recommended. Rock, sand etc can absorb the copper. This not only makes keeping consistent levels difficult, but also may make it difficult to keep inverts in the tank due to leaching. As previously stated, parasites can last longer in cyst form where copper isn’t effective against them. Once you drop the copper concentration in your tank then cysts can still be present. Once the cysts release the parasite then your fish can be reinfected.

 

These repeated treatments of copper will take a toll on your fish!