Is price the bottom line when you buy livestock?

[madweazl]

All fish come from a "puppy mill" equivalent, period. Some retailers have a quarantine process; we have what, one in this region? The argument is invalid; the only valid piece is what the consumer is willing to do (e.g. quarantine, medicate, etc.). Like Paul, I believe the best chance for the fish is in my display. As consumers, we accept a certain degree of risk; what we're comfortable with will differ. 

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Origami's OP is spot on, I think.  For me, I add animals slowly (about 1 every few months) and I'm at capacity in my 29 gallon (I have not gotten a new fish since November, my third fish).  Even though I intend to get a bigger (~75 gal ish) tank, I only intend to keep maybe $400 of livestock (at live aquaria prices, and mind you I'm not talking about live rock), which I will also add slowly.   I don't intend to flip them or any such thing.  

 

Frankly, if every reefer was like me, there'd be no way you could keep a retail business based solely from livestock and drygoods sales, even if your prices were the same as BRS/LA.  I will spread ~$400 value of livestock over 12-24 months.  AND I live in a somewhat cramped apartment.   

 

That gets to the main point: I want small, healthy livestock that will grow (but not over grow :D ) my tank.   I don't mind paying a premium, and I'm putting my $$ where my mouth is: I'm paying $100 for a pair of well quarantined basic ocelaris in July (compared to $40 for the pair I saw at Petco today).  I simply don't want the risk, or put up with QTing.   

 

And I agree with Mari: now that I'm married I don't have the option of finding extra space for a 10 gal QT and the associated stuff for the one fish every few months that I may get.  (I do have to figure out what to do when someone get sick, admittedly).    

[Origami]

All fish come from a "puppy mill" equivalent, period. Some retailers have a quarantine process; we have what, one in this region? The argument is invalid; the only valid piece is what the consumer is willing to do (e.g. quarantine, medicate, etc.). Like Paul, I believe the best chance for the fish is in my display. As consumers, we accept a certain degree of risk; what we're comfortable with will differ. 

Yes. But what if you're new to the hobby and you don't yet understand the risk? That's the whole point of this post: These handling practices disproportionately affect the inexperienced and cause unnecessary losses and cause the industry harm, leading to initiatives like we've seen battled over in Hawaii for years and upon which we've recently lost ground. With as many fish as are lost to get one fish into our tanks, does it make sense for us to encourage conservationist thought and to think more broadly than our initial out-of-pocket cost and to think about what we can do to improve survival rates?

[paul b]

 

Frankly, if every reefer was like me, there'd be no way you could keep a retail business based solely from livestock and drygoods sales, even if your prices were the same as BRS/LA.  I will spread ~$400 value of livestock over 12-24 months.  AND I live in a somewhat cramped apartment.   

 

 

They would all go out of business if they wait for me.  I spend $400.00 on livestock maybe every 5 years, if that.  And I build everything else.  I am sorry retailers, but I just don't kill fish.  Unless I am eating them of course.    

 

Stuffed calamari.  Maybe I will make that again today. 

 

[zygote2k]

Well Hawaii collection is done.

Banggai islands done.

GBR done.

Marshall and Fiji done.

Much of what shut these places down is blamed on the aquarium trade and the enormous losses after removal from the ocean and before going into the consumers tanks.

 

With poor business models that only care about the bottom line, and the subsequent losses of life, you’re going to see only qualified and well regulated wholesalers and retailers will be allowed to sell fish.

And most likely the prices will go much higher as availability becomes much lower. You as the consumer might have to prove that you are able to care for the fish and ensure it’s longevity. Maybe if you kill too many fish, they’ll blacklist you and/or impose fines and/or jail time.

 

The cavalier attitude about fish needs to change, otherwise the above scenario might come true.

 

Caveat Emptor.

[paul b]

Well Hawaii collection is done.

Banggai islands done.

GBR done.

Marshall and Fiji done.

Much of what shut these places down is blamed on the aquarium trade and the enormous losses after removal from the ocean and before going into the consumers tanks.

 

With poor business models that only care about the bottom line, and the subsequent losses of life, you’re going to see only qualified and well regulated wholesalers and retailers will be allowed to sell fish.

And most likely the prices will go much higher as availability becomes much lower. You as the consumer might have to prove that you are able to care for the fish and ensure it’s longevity. Maybe if you kill too many fish, they’ll blacklist you and/or impose fines and/or jail time.

 

The cavalier attitude about fish needs to change, otherwise the above scenario might come true.

 

Caveat Emptor.

I agree.  So many people kill so many fish it is horrible. 

[Matt LeBaron]

Well Hawaii collection is done.

Banggai islands done.

GBR done.

Marshall and Fiji done.

Much of what shut these places down is blamed on the aquarium trade and the enormous losses after removal from the ocean and before going into the consumers tanks.

 

With poor business models that only care about the bottom line, and the subsequent losses of life, you’re going to see only qualified and well regulated wholesalers and retailers will be allowed to sell fish.

And most likely the prices will go much higher as availability becomes much lower. You as the consumer might have to prove that you are able to care for the fish and ensure it’s longevity. Maybe if you kill too many fish, they’ll blacklist you and/or impose fines and/or jail time.

 

The cavalier attitude about fish needs to change, otherwise the above scenario might come true.

 

Caveat Emptor.

This hit home with me a couple months ago when a LFS that I follow on social media kept popping up in my feed with exactly what their weekly shipment of live stock was. I was surprised at how much stock they were getting in weekly and obviously selling because they were just getting in more each week. It clicked with me that if people were actually keeping their fish alive for years like I do there is just no way they could move that many fish each week. It was more than a bit of a disturbing revelation for me and while in the past I tried to purchase captive bred where I could (keeping seahorses for 10 years had already ingrained that in me a bit) I am really now basically looking at captive bred exclusively. And I think with many of the successes over the past 5 years in breeding this is something that aquarists can larger get away with fairly easily now. I was excited to see that multiple sources are breeding Pajama cardinals now and the captive bred section over at Live Aquaria is fairly impressive now.

 

I don't forsee a black list or anything like that happening, unless available treatment for our aquatic buddies increases significantly (see my post above) but I think it is both possible that in the next 10-20 years our hobby could be entirely captive bred both on the fish and coral side of things. And honestly that may not be a bad thing.

[Mattb1612]

So this is an interesting conversation piece! So in my opinion after not doing qt and getting ick and buying 200 dollars worth of qt I will now say I splurge the extra 20 bucks on a healthy fish from trusted store. What is a trusted store well reef escape has a very well laid out qt program I trust by talking to the owners and staff. I think spending the 20 min convo on what does your qt procedure entail. Get a feeling for a trusted store. Anyways I have killed 4 fish in 4 years of reef keeping and I can say it’s a bad feeling. I have learned from my mistakes and my way is buying from trusted stores for more money. Just my thoughts.

 

 

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[zygote2k]

Can we make a list of places that offer fully quarantined fish?

Dutchman’s Reef

Marco

Reef Escape

TFYB

Dr. Mac

 

Any others?

[AlanM]

Rob, the only one I knew on that list who did that was Marco. 

 

I was aware that the others on your list weren't just "flippping" the fish, they sell healthy fish, but I didn't know that all of them offered fully quarantined.  

 

Speaking for myself I'm definitely willing to pay more for pre-quarantined fish.  I know it doesn't cost all that much to set up a QT, and I have one running full time, but it sure is easier to get a fish successfully through my quarantine if someone else has already done the hard work of getting it settled from shipping, getting it eating prepared food, treating it for any obvious diseases, etc.  If I get a fish in like that I just observe it for a while in my QT without treating to ensure that it's doing well and then introduce it to the population.

[YHSublime]

Rob, the only one I knew on that list who did that was Marco.

 

I was aware that the others on your list weren't just "flippping" the fish, they sell healthy fish, but I didn't know that all of them offered fully quarantined.

 

Speaking for myself I'm definitely willing to pay more for pre-quarantined fish. I know it doesn't cost all that much to set up a QT, and I have one running full time, but it sure is easier to get a fish successfully through my quarantine if someone else has already done the hard work of getting it settled from shipping, getting it eating prepared food, treating it for any obvious diseases, etc. If I get a fish in like that I just observe it for a while in my QT without treating to ensure that it's doing well and then introduce it to the population.

Reef escape does, they’ve commented several times on it. Granted, not to the full prophylactic expense of Exotic Reef Creations, but a qt non the less.

 

 

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[treesprite]

If the stores near a person are all ones that have no procedures, then what? Some people live in areas with basically no options. The stores closest to me have no procedures, and they get their fish from the same places (TL used to treat all its fish-only tanks with copper, but I don't know if they still do it). This is kind of why I decided I may as well get fish from PETCO *if* they are at least aquacultured fish.

[Matt LeBaron]

Divers Den is the online option, they QT and while I still QT when I order from them it's more to make sure they are eating well than worrying they may be sick. I still keep them in QT for at least two weeks though but have never had a Divers Den fish show any signs of illness.

[Big Country]

CTE Aquatics in Timonium, MD just set up a QT system recently

[Matt LeBaron]

Really? How are they offering the service? Select a fish they'll QT it for you or are they selecting some fish to QT and then offering them for sale?

[Origami]

With all the talk about QT, I thought it would be worthwhile to link to the Exotic Reef Creations published treatment protocol. I'm glad to see it documented and put out there for us to look at. 

 

Remember, QT is just one of the things we ought to do - or consider as an element of risk/price. It's something that a lot of new people don't think about or consider - failing to factor potential losses into the final cost. These are the buyers that are more likely to be taken advantage of by a high-velocity fish-flipper and who will learn lessons the hard way. More experienced aquarists may understand and be willing to accept the risk. For the latter, supporting the fish-flipper is a judgement call. If you want things to change for the better, ask your LFS what they do to prepare a fish for sale, inspect their systems, talk to their sales people and, if they can do better, let them know. If they can't do better, find another source. 

[zygote2k]

I think any support given to the fish flippers is pure ignorance. We all know that fish need to be QT’ed and so do the flippers. They claim they are passing the “savings” on to the customer, but in truth they are passing on the responsibility to the customer and profiting from the fact that most customers won’t QT and will probably return a few times to replace those fish.

 

Remember the old phrase- “saltwater customers drive” from back in the day. There weren’t very many SW shops and they were few and far between.

Now there are more flippers than QT-ers, and being the responsible fish owner means that you should be willing to go the literal distance to buy QT’ed fish.

[treesprite]

What is the difference that makes these fish more important than the fish that are purposefully killed for food? Some fish kept in aquariums are also used as people food; why should a specimen of a certain species be regulated differently based on whether it is for food or aquarium? (I have to tell you, that as someone who does not eat animals, I question the disparity every time someone who eats fish products gets upset about an aquarium fish dying). If you want regulations to keep aquarium fish alive, you will be fighting the regulations on fish sold for food. I personally would love regulations to keep fish alive instead of seeing people eat them, but then, where would I get the food to feed the living fish in my aquarium, or food that I feed to my cats? To be honest, in my opinion we are really just a group of hypocrites.

 

If anyone has any different thought on the thread subject, besides all the "preaching to the choir", please speak up.

Edited April 29, 2018 by treesprite

[paul b]

If anyone has any different thought on the thread subject, besides all the "preaching to the choir", please speak up.

I have different thoughts on a lot of things on this thread, but I decided not to voice my opinions even though Tom knows them.    To each his own.  But I respect other people's opinion as I am not the God of opinions. 

 

I also eat fish a few times a week and my family owned a sea food business.  Even Jesus ate fish but he didn't have a lot of supermarkets near him so choices were limited. 

[Jon Lazar]

What is the difference that makes these fish more important than the fish that are purposefully killed for food? 

 

The difference is there's a purpose to one, while the other is being wasteful.

[johnnybv]

Can we make a list of places that offer fully quarantined fish?

Dutchman’s Reef

Marco

Reef Escape

TFYB

Dr. Mac

 

Any others?

 

I think you should make everyone aware of what you are considering fully quarantined fish!  4-6 weeks IMHO is a fully quarantined fish, we have our own protocol as well, but I will be the first one to tell you that everyone should QT their own fish.  We have wholesalers that supposedly quarantine fish, and charge a good amount more as well.so that cost just gets carried down the line, but then what??  Does that mean we don't run our protocol then????  Not so.  Be smart, ask questions, find out how long fish have been in a store, see if they are eating, monitor their behavior etc.  I will not get into a discussion on here about QT because there are so many differing opinions, and quite frankly very tainted opinions.  But if you come into my store and want to know what WE do I would be happy to share that with you, and I think you will be surprised, especially seeing that we are Not on that biased list above.

 

john

[treesprite]

I think you should make everyone aware of what you are considering fully quarantined fish! 4-6 weeks IMHO is a fully quarantined fish, we have our own protocol as well, but I will be the first one to tell you that everyone should QT their own fish. We have wholesalers that supposedly quarantine fish, and charge a good amount more as well.so that cost just gets carried down the line, but then what?? Does that mean we don't run our protocol then???? Not so. Be smart, ask questions, find out how long fish have been in a store, see if they are eating, monitor their behavior etc. I will not get into a discussion on here about QT because there are so many differing opinions, and quite frankly very tainted opinions. But if you come into my store and want to know what WE do I would be happy to share that with you, and I think you will be surprised, especially seeing that we are Not on that biased list above.

 

john

I was also thinking about the fact that people don't define "quarantine" the same way. Do the names on that exclusive list all define it the same way? Do they all QT for at least 4 weeks, every single fish, such that every single fish is not even for sale for 4 weeks?

 

Some of the people who have posted raving over a select group of vendors, are folks who have previously told other people to always quarantine, even if it was already done by the vendor. So are those people now all saying it is okay for customers to not QT fish if the fish are bought from the exclusive vendor list? On top of that, if customers are paying extra for that QT service, why would they even then do another QT for 4 weeks after purchase?

 

I am capable of putting fish through QT myself. I feel like the vendor is responsible for the condition of the animals in their stores, responsible for guiding customers away from purchasing fish that have visible signs of illness, and for educating customers about QTing new fish (every time a fish is sold). However, assuming the vendor does the above, I do not think that vendor is responsible for what happens to a fish after it leaves the store. The only place I personally know of that I believe sells clearly unhealthy fish, is the big box store.

 

I have no intention of taking business away from shops I've known for so many years, based on the fact that some hobbyists are either uneducated, irresponsible, or just plain lazy.

 

Besides all that, some newly purchased fish perish for reasons totally unrelated to whether or not they went through a full QT process before purchase.

 

I have to edit to add another thought I just had. People often buy fish from other hobbyists, often fish that have been n the same tank for years with no sign of illness. To me, they are already proven to be healthy fish. Yet some fish still become sick and sometimes die after transfer to their new homes, regardless of how long the seller had them thriving. Again, it is not the fault of the seller. Fish will get sick sometimes, no matter what vendors and hobbyists do to try to prevent it.

Edited May 1, 2018 by treesprite

[treesprite]

I just want to clarify that part of the price I pay for fish is in time, effort, and equipment which are all needed to quarantine my fish myself.

[paul b]

I don't quarantine, but I think that if you want quarantined fish, you should do it yourself. And if I wanted quarantined fish I would do it myself. Everything we do is part of this great hobby. I doubt a store can do it as good as you yourself can do it. Just my opinion.

[Origami]

We've turned this into a quarantine discussion. It's about more than that.