Is price the bottom line when you buy livestock?

[Origami]

What, to you, is the true cost of adding a new fish to your tank? Is it the price? Or, is cost more complicated than that?

 

I'm asking this to get your thoughts and to invite others who've not done this a long time to consider a broader way of thinking about the topic when considering stocking or adding to their tank.

 

I've been in this hobby a while now and I've sourced my livestock from a wide range of sources including

 

a) By purchase from online sources,

b) From my local fish stores (some of which are now out of business,

c) Purchases of established livestock from fellow WAMAS members, and

d) Rescued or re-homed fish from friends and WAMAS members.

 

Over that time, I've seen the many different business models that stores offer to secure our business. However, I'm not convinced that everybody sees or understands that, as a consume, cost does not equal price or that our behavior as consumers can lead to improvements in the behavior of our sources.

 

For example:

 

1) One of my longest lived fishes is a yellow tang that I bought many years ago from Marine Depot Live. They've been out of this business area for many years now (a decade?), so that tells you how long ago it was. The first one I received didn't make it through the shipping process and was replaced under their arrive-alive guarantee. The second, though, lives to this day. Two fishes. One survivor. One price to me. What was the cost?

 

2) Some time later, one of our local stores was offering fish at really low, below market price. These fish moved rapidly through industrial supply chain channels, and spent little to no time in the LFS's tanks before being snapped up by hobbyists thinking they were getting a great deal. Having some experience, I had a QT set up, and put three fish from this LFS into the same QT system. In a few days, my QT had turned into a hospital tank as at least one of the fish carried with it a disease that spread. Two fish died. One survived. That survivor is still in my tank today. Three fish. One survivor. I paid for three. What was the cost? What could the cost have been had I just gone home that first day, acclimated the fish, and released them into my community tank and lost everything?

 

My point is, as hobbyists we need to think about and realize that cost is not the same thing as price. That we need to pull back the curtain, open our eyes and understand that, when we shop sources with really low prices, we have a responsibility to dig deeper and to understand that, more likely than not, the prices are low because we're accepting more risks - risks that the LFS doesn't have to bear and reflect in the sale price of surviving livestock. This includes our accepting the risk of nuking our tank if we're not careful. 

 

While a valid business model, shops that flip livestock like this have an asymmetric impact on the hobbyist community, probably resulting in higher losses and higher cost to the newer, less experienced hobbyist. Not only will the inexperience result in more money lost to the hobbyist, but with it comes a loss of life; with it comes an implicit support and sustainment of a business model that, while valid, disproportionately target the less experienced, and therefore disadvantaged newbie. 

 

We've heard the story time and time again: Somebody buys a fish somewhere, expecting that all is fine and adding it to their tank. Days later, velvet (or some other disease) breaks out and wipes out 80 to 100% of a tank. It's Russian Roulette. If you've done this enough, you know that. If you're new to the hobby, it may just become a real costly and disheartening lesson to you.

 

As experienced hobbyists, I think we owe it to those just entering the hobby to beat this drum loud and often: That price is not cost; that risk does not always lead to reward; and that real value may mean paying a higher cost for a specimen that is captive bred and/or has gone through a more rigorous and extensive QT protocol to reduce the risk to you. And, finally, that our behavior as consumers, if we're behaving thoughtfully, can influence the path that our sources take.

 

The high-velocity, quick-turn, low-price flipping business model is only viable if we make it so. But let's open our eyes. Low price is not low cost. In its wake, this business model leaves more dead bodies; more disillusioned newbies; and a damaged reputation for the industry and the hobby.

 

So, is price the bottom line when you buy livestock?

 

 

 

[paul b]

Tom, I am so confused, but I am old and probably senile.  When I started me and Noah would go to a fish store and check out the fish, most of which were too expensive so I had to settle for damsels.  That was good because they were the only fish available then anyway. 

All of us in the hobby then thought all saltwater fish came with spots as that is the way we always saw them.  We kept pennies in the tank to cure them, and sometimes it worked.  But we lost a lot of fish and blue devils were about $7.00 then and when you are bringing home $52.00 a week that seven bucks hurt.

 

Now almost fifty years later, I don't lose fish so the hobby is very cheap for me.  My fish only die from old age, RAP music or jumping out so the fireclown I bought 27 years ago for twelve bucks cost me less than 50 cents a year.  Thats cheap.  But if I bought it yesterday and today it is pushing up daisies or whatever fish do after they croak, it would be expensive.

 

I also don't fall for the new shiny gizmo so I don't have to buy dosers, GAC, Rowaphas, red slime remover, hospital and quarantine tanks, medications, UV sterilizers, Phosguard, Right guard, Coast Guard or any of that silly stuff that people buy.   

 

Eventually, if we stay in the hobby long enough we gradually eliminate pieces of equipment we bought because we figured (wrongly) that it would make us into Jacues Cousteau.  

 

And our fish will live forever so we don't have to replace them very often.  So it gets cheaper the longer we live.    

[Matt LeBaron]

Not for me. Many of my fish over the years have come from Divers Den, which is generally more expensive but all of the fish have been disease free due to their QT process., of course I still QT’ed them myself but none ever showed signs of disease and came well fed.

 

I would happily and have repeatedly In the past paid more for fish I know are coming from a vendor that I know cares well for their live stock. Having said that I have seen very few LFS’s that care for their live stock in a way that would make me want to pay more. Keeping my live stock alive for their full normal life span or longer is very important to me,

[matt]

Cost isn't the only concern for me, but it's a factor. And while I consider it, sometimes even when I'm "smart" I'm proven wrong or unlucky.

 

I recently paid more for a fish from a well regarded local store. (I won't say who, as this one experience could be isolated.) That fish went through a solid regime and so I bought knowing that and paying extra for it. The fish died in three days. I've paid less for some internet fish that lived much longer. I guess the point I'm making is that even when we factor in more than sticker price for the cost, we may not be wise...or not so wise we can escape bad luck.

[gmerek2]

I would pay for healthy fish. Especiallly if it is someone that truely cares about the specimine and it’s life. But unfortunately selling fish is a business and it doesn’t make financial sense to do the job right.

[zygote2k]

I think that in order for the hobby to survive given all the pressure to close various fisheries and the state of the ocean, that the “flip a fish for a few dollars” model needs to be eliminated, shunned, and boycotted.

When you walk into one of these stores and you see dead, diseased, and dying fish, it shows complete lack of respect for the fish and to a greater extent, a lack of respect for the customer.

In this day and age, EVERYONE knows about the diseases that exist at many holding facilities and to simply sell without qt protocols is verging on negligence.

 

If these places were selling dogs and cats with visible diseases or dying animals, those places would be shut down, animals confiscated, and jail times served.

For some reason, fish are deemed disposable and replenishable.

 

I too used to play fish roulette but at some point, I stopped looking at them as objects and began treating them as animals.

I strive to give them the best possible life under my care that I can provide. I have numerous fish that are 20+ years old and I feel saddened and sickened when an easily preventable disease caused by negligence kills them.

[AquaHaus]

When I worked for House of Fins (CT), I was blown away by the quality (and prices they fetch) for livestock when I made my first trip to their store. The prices were roughly 3 times what I was seeing around here locally for the same fish, but the specimens were DEFINITELY not treated the same. Im not attempting to plug them here, but to your point about cost vs price knowing you are buying healthy, fat, happy and eating livestock is worth $$$ IMO

 

Divers Den and LA are two totally different things from my experience as well.

Edited April 19, 2018 by ExoticAquaticsVA

[pizzaguy]

When I firdt started in hobby i would buy anything. Well that got me and cost me about 2 grand in fish. Now price is really not the concern. I will pay extra for properly quarantined fish that I can put right in without worry. Hands down

[madweazl]

Zygote2k has the right idea here. While I completely agree with it, I'll still grab a fish that I'm wanting even if it has some issues. About 20 years ago I bought a clown trigger from a place that was terrible in regard to fish health but it was the size of a dime and I had to have it. Nurtured that little guy to a few inches and it was hands down my favorite fish of all time (was a character for sure). Brought home a navarcus from the store I worked at lost everything in the tank. Broke my heart (sucked losing the others but the clown trigger hurt). Fast forward a couple of decades and I still dont quarantine though. With that said, I'll happily pay more for an exceptional specimen or one that has been well handled and likely more healthy. 

[mari.harutunian]

I dont think there are any LFSs near me that quarantine at all. They always have ich. My pair of clownfish, very first fish i ever got, i didnt know better and just bought a healthy looking pair. Got lucky and they still live. Bought a sixline from that fish place in Pennsylvania and got lucky there though i dont know their QT process if any. Had a bicolor blenny from HOT that died of something internal and a watchman that died because of my aggressive sixline. After loss from disease and aggression I’m just not getting any more fish as it is not worth it in my small 36 gallon. Maybe if ERC is at a meet and they have nano fish that can hold their own. I too do not like fish roulette and probably will not get any fish until i upgrade and get a QT system or a fish that went through a dedicated QT is for sale. I dont really think price truly matters and if the LFSs started charging more for dedicated QT & treatment i dont think the community would bat an eye. It may not feel like you’re saving money when you buy the fish but when 1/4th of the fish bought in this hobby die, I’m sure it will be saving in the long run. Also maybe more consideration will be put into choosing livestock.

 

 

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[YHSublime]

I think the problem is with the consumer, not with the stores. I say vote with your wallet, if you buy fish that have not been profelacticly treated, and they all continually die, then it shouldn’t take long to figure out who’s doing it wrong.

 

Some of you may be willing to pay an expense for such a fish, but I’d gander the majority would not. I’ve known people who said they would, but then negotiated or lowballed on the risk, time, and cost that seller has already invested.

 

Also, I’d venture to say that aside from 5%, most hobbyist don’t really grasp the concept of a fully quarantined tank.

 

Just this guys opinion.

 

 

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[GraffitiSpotCorals]

I just spent forever writing a big rant and pressed the back button......... I guess I will have to post it later.

 

But I will spend extra on something if that store has proven it can keep in stock what I need on the average and what corals I like to buy. Which is simple basic reef keeping stuff.

[Origami]

I'm glad to see the various opinions and thoughts. Keep 'em coming. The whole idea here was to stimulate thought - especially with those that haven't been in the hobby very long.

 

Sometimes the cost-risk-price relationship is not immediately obvious and it becomes a lesson learned the hard way - not only in terms of money lost, but also the life unnecessarily lost (wasted?) and possibly the disillusionment that can result. The supply chain and how a fish ultimately gets to you - including the losses and stresses along the way - is something I think that we all should learn more about.  That includes the role of our local sources and our role as consumers as well, because our actions shape the market and make the hobby stronger. I think it's important that we factor all of this, including any moral/ethical concerns that we might have, into our thinking when buying fish. 

[paul b]

.

 

Also, I’d venture to say that aside from 5%, most hobbyist don’t really grasp the concept of a fully quarantined tank.

 

Just this guys opinion.

 

 

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I don't 

 

I also sometimes like finding sick fish.  I can usually get them for free or practically nothing, cure them and have a great fish. 

Edited April 19, 2018 by paul b

[mari.harutunian]

I think the problem is with the consumer, not with the stores. I say vote with your wallet, if you buy fish that have not been profelacticly treated, and they all continually die, then it shouldn’t take long to figure out who’s doing it wrong.

 

Some of the fault is definitely on the consumer but with such limited options in MD between house of tropics, capital aquarium, fintastic, and today’s pet the fish health is pretty disappointing from the get go. If people here had a dedicated LFS and then shopped elsewhere for cheap sick fish that’s a different story. Tropical lagoon is also somewhere here but I have been maybe twice and don’t know about their fish heath. It’s true buying these sick fish encourages the business of selling sick fish so what should people do?

 

 

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[YHSublime]

I don't

 

I also sometimes like finding sick fish. I can usually get them for free or practically nothing, cure them and have a great fish.

I’m aware! I believe you’ve been really lucky, or are so far away from “New Tank Syndrome” that your fish probably just think they are back in the ocean again!

 

It’s important that new hobbyists learn the pros and cons of a quarantine, or purchase, because not everybody can speed up time to also have a 100 year old saltwater tank with a water heater powered by burning whale blubber.

 

 

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[YHSublime]

Some of the fault is definitely on the consumer but with such limited options in MD between house of tropics, capital aquarium, fintastic, and today’s pet the fish health is pretty disappointing from the get go. If people here had a dedicated LFS and then shopped elsewhere for cheap sick fish that’s a different story. Tropical lagoon is also somewhere here but I have been maybe twice and don’t know about their fish heath. It’s true buying these sick fish encourages the business of selling sick fish so what should people do?

 

Unless a store/seller is hiding something about the fish health from you knowingly, then it's 100% on the consumer. 

 

In 2018, it's not hard to find a review about a business. I'd venture to say the majority of buyers don't observe the fish, or even ask the store to feed it. Or, while they are in house, even ask about what kind of treatment the fish goes through. If I had a dollar for every time somebody impulse purchased a fish because "they wanted it" I probably wouldn't have to work. If the consumer doesn't ask the questions, they probably need to research a bit more about the hobby before they start buying fish. I've seen this process repeated over and over and over again. And I've done it myself. I'm not pointing fingers, but I learned, and continue to keep educating myself. 

 

Rob's 100% right above with dogs as an example. You wouldn't go into a pet store with 0 questions and just buy a puppy. 

 

 

It’s true buying these sick fish encourages the business of selling sick fish so what should people do?

 

Vote with your wallet. Educate. 

[mari.harutunian]

Unless a store/seller is hiding something about the fish health from you knowingly, then it's 100% on the consumer.

 

In 2018, it's not hard to find a review about a business. I'd venture to say the majority of buyers don't observe the fish, or even ask the store to feed it. Or, while they are in house, even ask about what kind of treatment the fish goes through. If I had a dollar for every time somebody impulse purchased a fish because "they wanted it" I probably wouldn't have to work. If the consumer doesn't ask the questions, they probably need to research a bit more about the hobby before they start buying fish. I've seen this process repeated over and over and over again. And I've done it myself. I'm not pointing fingers, but I learned, and continue to keep educating myself.

 

Rob's 100% right above with dogs as an example. You wouldn't go into a pet store with 0 questions and just buy a puppy.

 

 

 

Vote with your wallet. Educate.

I mean yes, but LFSs bank on you not knowing these things. I’ve seen them sell shrimp with isopod parasites visible on them. I always have questions when i go to my LFSs and none of them are ever good with QT.

When it comes to dogs yes you want to ask questions but you also don’t expect any dogs for sale to ever be sick in the first place. You expect the store to have healthy happy puppies that you don’t need a vet degree to make sure they’re healthy. My friend who is getting a vet degree told me about internal parasites at [mod. - store name deleted, please don't post hearsay about specific LFS] and i never would’ve known to ask that question otherwise. The learning curve in this hobby is kind of steep and a person could kill a few fish before knowing better.

I can vote with my dollar here by not buying anything at all. Fish, coral, equipment, everything but that makes everything a lot harder and they still make a lot of money off of everything else they sell.

Somehow LFSs & consumers have to find a way to make proper treatment profitable.

 

 

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[rt502]

With regards to LFS', it seems like a complete toss up in regards to the health of the fish you receive, unless you have someone with a dedicated protocol (Marco), and it seems obvious that the majority aren't willing to pay extra for quarantined/treated or captive bred fish. I think we all know that it's mostly out of the hands of the LFS, since they're all ordering from the same wholesalers and generally all take the same basic precautions (formalin/methylene/maybe copper/etc). It's expensive to put fish through a protocol, since you're taking on all of the losses that you'll inevitably get and we the consumer won't pay for all of the dead fish that went into the way more expensive healthy fish when we can take our chances at 1/3 to 1/2 the price elsewhere. I rarely get to pull this card, but as an economist 'fixes always crooked tie,' we know that price is the #1 factor in consumer choice. Only some sort of regulation that caps the number of doa fish or penalizes stores for sick fish would make a dent (and it's not at all feasible). Paying $150 for a healthy leopard wrasse that won't die and/or nuke your tank is reasonable, but most would rather pay $65 and take the risk.

 

As a new saltwater guy, I was legitimately shocked by the general acceptance of high mortality among fish collected and the number of fish that are diseased at LFS'. It's great that Paul has success with live blackworms and clams and immunity and what not (though I still can't believe he loses fish to jumping) but I was one of the many, many people who got into saltwater, learned on the fly, learned all about ich and brook and sourcing the hard way via crashes, got alienated and left, and got back with some more knowledge.

 

Now, I just expect that the fish I purchase will be of dubious health. I generally dip and don't quarantine and just feed as high quality of food as I can (Paul B school I guess, made easier with high quality foods like LRS, lots of amphipods, and proximity to a good seafood grocer). If a fish I add gets hit too hard with ich and the others aren't showing, I'll remove that fish and treat in a hospital tank until healthy enough to put back. Worked before I had to get out last year (no losses in years) and has worked so far with my new setup.

 

All that said, I'd be happy to pay 2-3x what I pay for a pre-treated fish, but the options are limited, and adding an ERC fish to my tank, for instance, would probably lead to that fish getting parasites regardless, since they're already in my system. It's not ideal, but it's what has worked for me.

[YHSublime]

Without digressing, I think the picture needs to be looked at from a bigger picture other than the local lens.

 

I mean yes, but LFSs bank on you not knowing these things. I’ve seen them sell shrimp with isopod parasites visible on them. I always have questions when i go to my LFSs and none of them are ever good with QT.
When it comes to dogs yes you want to ask questions but you also don’t expect any dogs for sale to ever be sick in the first place. You expect the store to have healthy happy puppies that you don’t need a vet degree to make sure they’re healthy.

 

Let's take this perspective. Lets consider a breeder to a, for the sake of our conversation, petsmart. 

 

Let's consider the breeder the captive bred breeder equivalent. You're going to pay a premium for that dog/fish. Btw, most breeders run through the first round of shots, but the rest, after that expensive premium, is up to the buyer. Let's compare the petsmart to the version of a rescue. Every rescue dog, even though there still may be some problems, has gone through a basic checkup. And you don't need a vet degree, but do you take your puppy to a vet immediately? Absolutely you do. Now lets say you're buying from a puppy mill, because that's the equivalent of some places. Are you still buying? Because people do. Same with puppies, same with fish. They still support those organizations. As a consumer, you are personally responsible for making sure you are getting something healthy, unfortunately, the situation with dogs and fish isn't apples to apples, and I think that's the point of this conversation.

 

 The learning curve in this hobby is kind of steep and a person could kill a few fish before knowing better.

 

That's the point. Hobbyists need to educate themselves first. You wouldn't have a go at trying several dogs before knowing better. There's not enough diligence done first. Just because it's a steep learning curve doesn't excuse not doing your due diligence prior. 

 

I can vote with my dollar here by not buying anything at all. Fish, coral, equipment, everything but that makes everything a lot harder and they still make a lot of money off of everything else they sell.
Somehow LFSs & consumers have to find a way to make proper treatment profitable.

 

Vote with your dollar by either setting up a QT tank and doing it at home, or by buying from somebody who will do it for you. Pay the extra money. Are you willing? 

 

Exotic Reef Creations has found a way. Reef eScape has found a way. Vote with your wallet, that's what will dictate success. 

 

 

I rarely get to pull this card, but as an economist 'fixes always crooked tie,' we know that price is the #1 factor in consumer choice. Only some sort of regulation that caps the number of doa fish or penalizes stores for sick fish would make a dent (and it's not at all feasible). Paying $150 for a healthy leopard wrasse that won't die and/or nuke your tank is reasonable, but most would rather pay $65 and take the risk.

 

This.

[mari.harutunian]

Vote with your dollar by either setting up a QT tank and doing it at home, or by buying from somebody who will do it for you. Pay the extra money. Are you willing?

 

Exotic Reef Creations has found a way. Reef eScape has found a way. Vote with your wallet, that's what will dictate success.

 

 

 

This.

I could setup a dedicated QT but i have no idea how to do that, it would cost a lot of money, and i would still be supporting the sick fish industry anyway. ERC is wonderful, a Little far, but doesn’t usually carry nano fish or the fish I want. Reef escape is very far. I’m willing to pay but i am not comfortable city driving or driving far on my own. So now i just don’t buy fish. Prefer coral anyway.

 

Also proper consumer education is important but realistically i dont think everyone will be informed when they buy fish. I have a neighbor who hemorrhages money on fish every few months because they keep dying. Does it matter if i tell him he should read up on why they’re dying? Not really. So if the LFS did a little more maybe these fish would survive and he’d have a much smaller fish graveyard.

 

I did pop into today’s pet yesterday and ask them why they don’t have a QT system at all. They said every square foot in there has to make money and it’s just not profitable.

 

But i think this hobby has a habit of expecting more from the casual hobbyist. A casual hobbyist won’t do the necessary research or set up a QT. Some people don’t take their dogs to the vet. That’s awful. But should the dogs then die of something they had when bought? If they do, it’s your fault. But the dog is still dead.

 

 

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[Matt LeBaron]

The more the dog example is used the less I like it when compared to purchasing fish. When you buy or adopt a dog or puppy you take it to the vet to get checked out, regardless of the source, puppy mill, breeder, shelter, whatever. You take the animal to a professional who will examine it and determine a treatment regime for it should it have any illnesses. What is the equivalent for fish? A QT where you generally have to guess at what may be wrong unless it is some super obvious illness and try and treat with medication that may sort of work? Those two options don't even seem remotely equivalent in the least. 

 

I have had what I consider a fairly good record with treating sick fish but most of my success has been through an incredible amount of "research" and an incredible amount of preparedness by keeping something like $100 worth of medications on hand, most of which goes bad from lack of use in a few years. I mean how is a hobbyist supposed to tell a gram positive bacterial infection apart from a gram negative one? Even being aware of the difference is not something that is easy to find, let alone making the determination between the two. I think a lot of people don't QT because they don't feel there is any value in it, if their fish gets sick they don't feel like they will be able to do anything about it without a degree in marine biology and even then maybe not. I think the hobby needs to do something about that honestly. If you have a moment go check out www.searhorse.org and take a look at their Library. That Library is the reason that I still keep seahoses today because it lays out 99% of the diseases you may encounter with Seahorses, what can be the cause, and what you need to do to treat them. I've taken a seahorse to a vet (finding one that would even take a look was a chore unto itself) so that I could get a prescription for Diamox for gas bubble disease, I knew what I needed to treat my seahorse but only because of the library at that website. Stevie went on to live a long 7+ year life after that.

 

If we want the aquarium trade to function like the dog trade there need to be equivalent options. There are always going to be people were the price is all they care about but I think there is a significant portion of people out there who would pay more for fish and/or use QT more often if they felt there was something they could do besides cross their fingers about getting a healthy fish. Heck even the best thing to feed our fish is still up in the air, LRS frozen is what I use because the fish love it and it seems to keep them very healthy, most other peoples experience with it matches mine so it is becoming very popular but even that is a shot gun method at nutrition, we keep fish from all different parts of the world and areas of the oceans in our tanks but have a generally poor understanding of their nutrition requirements, there's no such guessing for dogs.

[Matt LeBaron]

I could setup a dedicated QT but i have no idea how to do that, it would cost a lot of money, and i would still be supporting the sick fish industry anyway. ERC is wonderful, a Little far, but doesn’t usually carry nano fish or the fish I want. Reef escape is very far. I’m willing to pay but i am not comfortable city driving or driving far on my own. So now i just don’t buy fish. Prefer coral anyway.

 

Also proper consumer education is important but realistically i dont think everyone will be informed when they buy fish. I have a neighbor who hemorrhages money on fish every few months because they keep dying. Does it matter if i tell him he should read up on why they’re dying? Not really. So if the LFS did a little more maybe these fish would survive and he’d have a much smaller fish graveyard.

 

I did pop into today’s pet yesterday and ask them why they don’t have a QT system at all. They said every square foot in there has to make money and it’s just not profitable.

 

But i think this hobby has a habit of expecting more from the casual hobbyist. A casual hobbyist won’t do the necessary research or set up a QT. Some people don’t take their dogs to the vet. That’s awful. But should the dogs then die of something they had when bought? If they do, it’s your fault. But the dog is still dead.

 

 

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A QT tank costs less than $100, look for a sale at PetSmart or Petco where they have a "complete" 10G kit usually for like $50-60, that has everything you need, basic filter, heater, light, and tank. Get some PVC pipe from Home Depot/Lowes and cut it into like 6 inch sections to provides places for fish to hide in, a $10 timer to turn the lights on and off when you want, and your ready. Add salt water and do small water changes to suck up any left over food each day and if you really want to go all out buy on of those in tank ammonia testers that you stick on the side of the tank to make sure the water quality stays good. It is a bit of extra work though because without the established bacteria your main tank has ammonia and Nitrates can become a problem without frequent water changes but you can even mitigate that a bit by leaving a sponge in your sump for a few weeks and putting it in the QT when you get a fish. Just remember to throw it away afterwards and get a new sponge as that one could then be a carrier for any disease the fish may have had but that like a $3-4 cost.

[rt502]

$100 is a drop in the bucket in this hobby, but tell a beginner that they need an extra tank, a bunch of medication (just in case), test kits for those medications, and the ability to discern various diseases that show up in these incredibly stressed out fish, and the majority would scoff. That may be their fault and we can blame them, but the LFS business model would still chug along. Those who do the research and join groups like wamas and discuss these topics are the exception, not the norm. I agree that, as it is now, it's up to the purchaser to do their background research and learn what is necessary to keep a healthy tank, but that's letting the industry off the hook. In the meantime, way too many fish die for dumb, preventable reasons. The saltwater ornamental fish trade is a mess and underegulated, but that's an altogether different discussion.

 

One market niche that I haven't seen filled would be a fish hospital of some sort. Your fish have ich? Bring them over, we'll treat for a fee and you receive a % back if your fish is lost. Maybe the idea isn't viable and would be too costly to run, but when I was new and had the first of many different disease outbreaks, I would have happily paid to take my fish somewhere to be treated instead of having everything die either because I lacked the proper medications or because I couldn't get a hospital tank up quickly enough. Some of the losses were devastating and initially made me stop keeping fish altogether.

[paul b]

I’m aware! I believe you’ve been really lucky, or are so far away from “New Tank Syndrome” that your fish probably just think they are back in the ocean again!

 

It’s important that new hobbyists learn the pros and cons of a quarantine, or purchase, because not everybody can speed up time to also have a 100 year old saltwater tank with a water heater powered by burning whale blubber.

 

 

 

I actually switched out the whale blubber, Have you seen the prices on whale waste products lately!  

 

I mean yes, but LFSs bank on you not knowing these things. I’ve seen them sell shrimp with isopod parasites visible on them

 

 

 

 

Wow! so you mean you get multiple pieces of livestock for the price of one!  Thats a win win. 

 

 

 

If we want the aquarium trade to function like the dog trade there need to be equivalent options.

There is an aquarium store here in New York that tried that, but they only sold dog faced puffers so they went out of business.   Go figure. 

Edited April 21, 2018 by paul b