Cupramine qt help please

[nextlevel808]

I could really use some advice. Ok I tested copper 3-4 days ago and it was at .2ppm since then I added 20mls (1ml per 10g) twice. I've been adding an extra 10ml each time for rock and sand. So technically I should be at around .4ppm now as I've done 4 doses of 20ml. But today when I tested I'm still at .2ppm . Now would my air pump be precipitating the copper out or would rock and sand be absorbing it all? I don't understand where that last 40mls went. That's also probably why the ich is still present on fish and reason it's still in my system. I bet it never reached a treatment zone level of .35-.5ppm the first time I treated my big tank a few months ago. I added another 25mls today and I'll probably test again this afternoon when I wake up. What are other people’s thoughts on where that last 40mls went?

[gmerek2]

the rock and sand are absorbing it. The QT is suppose to be bare bottom and just have plastic pipes in it for cover for fish. The problem with this is people set them up in a rush and they aren’t cycled. So ammonia spikes and kill fish.

[phlynamjax]

What test kit are you using? I have cupramine in my tank. I have shallow sandbed and a piece of rock in the tank. Mine does not seem like it is absorbing cupramine that much. I test daily and the level is at .5mg/L.

[gmerek2]

I haven’t added fish for a few years so I forget and gave them away. I ended up buying two because they were so in accurate. I remember thinking What the heck when dipping a stick in some powder it seemed like I would get different amounts of powder every time.

[treesprite]

Take out the rocks. The use of liverock to provide nitrifying bacteria is pointless in a tank that is being dosed with chemicals that kill off that bacteria, especially while the rock is simultaneously absorbing the medication, making it harder to maintain proper levels. Put some pieces of PVC in the tank for the fish to take cover. You won't be able to use that liverock and sand in a reef tank again, because the copper in it will leech into the water and kill your inverts.

[WheresTheReef]

Are you treating in your DT or a separate hospital tank (HT)? From your description of rock and sand it sounds like you are treating your DT. I would highly recommend getting a separate tank for treatment. The fish will be treated for ~30days, but copper only kills the free swimming phase of Ich. Ich can live in cyst form in some cases for 72 days. So typically you remove the fish and treat in a separate tank. You would also leave the tank w/o fish for those 72 days so that the remaining Ich dies off. Without this, you can reinfect your fish when you reintroduce them into the tank or remove the copper in the same tank. Also, you need to dedicate equipment for the HT to avoid cross contamination.

 

What size tank do you have? You should know the actual water volume for dosing. Following the Cupramine instructions will put you right at 0.5 mg/L on your second dose. The correct dosage is 1mL/10.5 gallons. 

 

You need to be careful with any copper source as you can kill your fish. What test kit are you using? I would recommend you use the Seachem Copper test kit. Not all copper tests will work with cupramine. The Seachem kit also has a reference you can test against to try and match the color.

 

Do you have any carbon or other media (e.g. purigen)? These will remove the copper. I have used a little rock in my QT and treated with cupramine. IME the biological filter wasn't killed off, but I'm sure it took a small hit during treatment. That rock is dedicated for my QT and never placed back in my tank. I have never treated with sand in the tank.

 

How many and what size fish do you have? 

[nextlevel808]

Are you treating in your DT or a separate hospital tank (HT)? From your description of rock and sand it sounds like you are treating your DT. I would highly recommend getting a separate tank for treatment. The fish will be treated for ~30days, but copper only kills the free swimming phase of Ich. Ich can live in cyst form in some cases for 72 days. So typically you remove the fish and treat in a separate tank. You would also leave the tank w/o fish for those 72 days so that the remaining Ich dies off. Without this, you can reinfect your fish when you reintroduce them into the tank or remove the copper in the same tank. Also, you need to dedicate equipment for the HT to avoid cross contamination.

 

What size tank do you have? You should know the actual water volume for dosing. Following the Cupramine instructions will put you right at 0.5 mg/L on your second dose. The correct dosage is 1mL/10.5 gallons. 

 

You need to be careful with any copper source as you can kill your fish. What test kit are you using? I would recommend you use the Seachem Copper test kit. Not all copper tests will work with cupramine. The Seachem kit also has a reference you can test against to try and match the color.

 

Do you have any carbon or other media (e.g. purigen)? These will remove the copper. I have used a little rock in my QT and treated with cupramine. IME the biological filter wasn't killed off, but I'm sure it took a small hit during treatment. That rock is dedicated for my QT and never placed back in my tank. I have never treated with sand in the tank.

 

How many and what size fish do you have?

 

Yes tank I’m treating is actually my main tank. I removed all corals and inverts a few months back when dosed cupramine for first time. Tank is 240g with 125g sump 300g of water. Test kit I’ve been using is Seachem. Reason I’m treating in main tank is because I don’t have a big enough qt tank for all my fish as I have 4 bigger tangs alone and 10 fish total. At this point I don’t care if I can hold corals in the tank again as more worried about my fish as have few higher end or harder to find fish. I have a small coral tank if need for that. As far as carbon or other media filters I have removed all carbon and cuprisorb I was running from treatment few months ago as need to treat again. Skimmer and uv are both off. Only thing I have besides powerhead and heater running is an air pump to help with depleted O2 and filter socks.

[WheresTheReef]

Yes tank I’m treating is actually my main tank. I removed all corals and inverts a few months back when dosed cupramine for first time. Tank is 240g with 125g sump 300g of water. Test kit I’ve been using is Seachem. Reason I’m treating in main tank is because I don’t have a big enough qt tank for all my fish as I have 4 bigger tangs alone and 10 fish total. At this point I don’t care if I can hold corals in the tank again as more worried about my fish as have few higher end or harder to find fish. I have a small coral tank if need for that. As far as carbon or other media filters I have removed all carbon and cuprisorb I was running from treatment few months ago as need to treat again. Skimmer and uv are both off. Only thing I have besides powerhead and heater running is an air pump to help with depleted O2 and filter socks.

Yea that's a tough situation.

 

According to http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/forum/general-discussion/602-cupramine-w-live-rock-and-sand , they state "Live Rock and sand can absorb copper meds in general, but Cupramine in an established system should not be absorbed by the live rock or substrate." Another support forum from them mentioned that the biofilm is what helps with it not being absorbed.

 

However, http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/forum/general-discussion/1552-cupramine-absorbs-spectrum does mention it being absorbed until saturation. Which is likely what you are experiencing. They suggest dosing and testing daily until you reach the correct level.

 

Once you reach proper levels, remember any water change water should have copper as well. How old is your test kit? Does the reference show up correctly?

 

The main concern post treatment is the possibility of reinfection from dormant ich in cyst form. This is why you run a fallow period. Did you measure the copper in the previous treatment?

 

If this was me, I would have another tank(s) to transfer them into ready. See if you can get some quarantined live rock or dry rock that you cycle. Timing on a cycle will be tough, but you can manage ammonia/nitrite with a binder (eg prime) and water changes while the cycle completes. When I mention the binder I mean in the separate holding tank not with copper as the combo can be lethal. Not sure if ERC or Reef eScape can help with "clean" live rock in a fishless system. I am planning on selling a 90g and 40g breeder if it helps with temp housing. They are both RR, but you don't have to add a sump. I can sell to you both for $100. It might be an investment, but worth avoiding reinfection. The alternative is to remove copper after treatment and hope for the best.

 

If you get the 40 breeder, I can let you borrow heaters, hob filter and some power heads for it from my QT. I unfortunately don't have spare equipment for the 90g, but maybe someone else on here does. This will help cut the cost.

 

Hope this helps.