Dealing with dinoflagellates

[AlanM]

 

Is there some type of correlation between Dinos and LEDs? Never had them when I was running MH's.

 

 

Speculation on R2R is that it has to do with how good our filtration has gotten which is coincidental with LEDs. 

 

For what it's worth, I'm running T5 right now, no LEDs.  The dinos in my system cropped up after I increased the amount of light they were putting in, but there were other things happening in the tank at the same time, too.

[Reefn]

AlanM –
Here’s what worked for me - Hydrogen Peroxide… And a Lot more than you think. Do a water change, hit hard, hit it soon and hit it again, then do another water change.

 

Instructions – with revisions from experience:
Day 1
Big water change (25%) to reduce the dinoflagellate population
Lights Out, then
Drugstore Hydrogen Peroxide (3%) @ 1ml/gal twice a day morning & evening (roughly 12hrs apart)

Day 2
if it’s working, continue the dosing @ rate & frequency

If it’s not beginning to work, bump the dose,
Bump to 1.5ml/gal twice a day morning & evening (roughly 12hrs apart)

 

Day 3
if it’s working, continue the dosing @ rate & frequency

If it’s not working, bump the dose,
This is the max dose I used - - 2ml/gal twice a day morning & evening (roughly 12hrs apart)

 

Day 4
You should see nothing, or nearly nothing
If it’s working, continue the dosing @ rate & frequency

If it’s not working, bump the dose,
I have not had to go past 2ml/gal twice a day morning & evening (roughly 12hrs apart)

 

Day 5
Change the water again to get rid of toxins.  Start the lights back up on a reduced cycle (maybe blue only for several days) and watch for recurrence of dinoflagellate – if I comes back even a little, start the H2O2 regimen again.

 

The Story:
Short Story - I fought this stuff for months several years ago and ended up losing two tanks – fish and coral.  When I started both back up, I ended up with a recurrence of Dinoflagellate and some nuisance algae. I began the regimen listed above and the tanks did great. The fish, coral and inverts remain healthy as of this writing.  Over the counter, drugstore 3% H2O2 is cheap and even cheaper at Costco. When all else failed, this worked.

Longer Story - Generally, try 1ml to 2ml H2O2 per gallon for dino or algae problems. The worse the problem, the more you use. I started with 1ml/gal for three days with lights out and had some effect on the dino. It came back within a week.  1.5ml/gal was better, but still not enough effect over another three days... it came back. Then, the big gun… 2ml/gal over 4 days… kicked its cellular-arse.

Some of you may be screaming – That 10-40 TIMES What you’ve read Elsewhere!  That was my reaction when I went looking for just how high an H2O2 dosage I could try, and found ONE – Only ONE article that reported using up to 2ml/gal for algae removal, fish wounds and oxygenating water for transporting fish.  I found only a couple of articles that went up to 1ml/gal specifically for dinoflagellates, bryopsis and other nuisance algae and for coral dips. So I decided to risk 1ml/gal for sure and ramp up to 2ml/gal if needed.

I spent about 5 months trying to beat this the first time and lost nearly everything in 2 tanks (cross contamination from trying to save some corals) using the dosing levels you’ve all read about, .5ml to 1ml/10g. I wasn’t about to spend months fighting this again.  Since I lost everything the first time – what did I have to lose…  As soon as I saw the dino again, I decided it was time for some Darwinian level of action.  I went looking for a better solution, found the one article mentioned above indicating potential safety at up to 2ml/gal and a couple others at 1ml/gal. I decided to jump on it hard.

 

This well known Reco is for .5-1.0ml/10gal: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1955204 and elsewhere…
Thread: Peroxide and the Kiss of Death (Dinoflagellates)
This is what I used the first time. I cautiously ramped up to 4ml/10gal over the months of dark, light, dose, try again. All without any lasting effect - dino took over and killed all. Ultimately I used 35% H2O2 to decontaminate the tanks, which it did very well -  you can believe that!

This Reco is 1ml/1gal: https://o-r-c-a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21735
Thread: Dosing Hydrogen Peroxide - The best kept secret for algae and dinos
This was my floor this time around and there are a few more such references if you want to go looking.

I only found 1 reference for using up to 2ml/gal (or 2ml/4L in the post) and it was the ticket that worked for me:
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/hydrogen-peroxide-and-its-utility-130482.html
Thread: Hydrogen Peroxide and Its Utility
Once the 1ml/g didn’t kill every living thing in the tank, my confidence grew for 2ml/g as my ceiling.

I did lose a lot of snails, but I think many were dying from the dino toxins first.  I didn’t change the water before I started treating – I should have.  Turned off the lights for 3-days, then used just blue for a week, then added low-white ramping up aver a week. If there’s a next time, I’ll do a massive water change, and then start H2O2 @ 1ml/gal and ramp quickly to 2ml/gal over 4 days. (1ml/g, 1.5ml/g, 2ml/g & 2ml/g, lights on to check for living dino, either enough or hit it again!)

The snails that survived at the start of the treatment are still here and the amphipod population is still strong.

H2O2 is my new best friend for Reef’n.

[AlanM]

Quick update - I haven't seen signs of dinoflagellates for about a week.  

 

Here is what I did as interventions, some of which I'd been intending to do for a while, but just didn't get around to:

 

- Plumbed skimmer air intake to the outside and am skimming pretty heavily

- Bought a cleanup crew refresh with ceriths, nerites, hermits, pods, and live phyto

- Removed my chaetomorpha refugium

- Install felt filter socks each night and remove them in the morning, bleach them once per week to clean

- Blow off rocks each night after installing new filter sock

- Run 40W AquaUV 24/7

- Feed heavily

- Dialed back white ATI channel to only 4 hours per day and only 25% intensity (not really white, it's actually 2 Coral+ and 4 Blue+)

 

My nutrients are up with the heavy feading and without the chaeto grower.  Nitrates are up to 0.75ppm and phosphate is up to 0.26ppm.  

 

Algae growing on the rocks and glass are actually going down.  I assume the exanded cleanup crew is helping in that effort.  

 

The fact that hermits are still kicking leads me to believe that dinos are being suppressed because they all died at some point during my last outbreak.

 

The water is a little cloudy.  The bubble tip anemone has now split into 3 (maybe 4), but that is the only effect so far I can see on livestock.  That could be caused by lower light levels, I guess.  SPS, LPS, zoas all look fine.

[gws3]

Good work on beating them back with a more natural approach! That phosphate/nitrate ratio is really phosphate heavy, I wonder if that will cause issues, perhaps it is part of your success ridding the tank of dinos.

[AlanM]

Good work on beating them back with a more natural approach! That phosphate/nitrate ratio is really phosphate heavy, I wonder if that will cause issues, perhaps it is part of your success ridding the tank of dinos.

 

right, I was shocked at my ppb number on the ultra-low phosphate meter.  I considered testing again, but thought about what I'd do if I got another high number and realized I wasn't going to do anything about it anyway, so I just left it, heh.

 

I did get some Dino-X and may still dose it a few times now that the dinos are gone after reading how the rest of the nuisance algae left when you used it.  I would like that.

[gws3]

FWIW my po4 level is twice that and sps are thriving. But my nitrates are 50 ppm so the redfield ratio is quite different, who knows if that matters.

 

Not sure I'd dose the Dino x unless the other algae is bad. It definitely stresses coral. It won't kill bryopsis or bubblealgae in my experience, but knocks out filamentous and slime algae types. Not sure what you have.

 

In my new system I had to dose it early on for dinos. It made the system really clean of algae and coralline got a really good hold. So right now everything is super clean and covered in coralline which is awesome. It took a while before sps were happy in there.

 

My first time I had to dose it in a system packed with SPS. That was rough and really put a hurting on some of the SPS. In that type of situation I'd only resort to it because the dinos were causing a lot of harm to corals and livestock as well.

[AlanM]

OK, got it.

 

I think the solution is that I need way more coral. 

 

When my coral was growing out of control I never had a problem with nutrient or algae.

 

A tank of mostly rock and frags is harder to keep than a full one of coral.

[xabo]

AlanM –

Here’s what worked for me - Hydrogen Peroxide… And a Lot more than you think. Do a water change, hit hard, hit it soon and hit it again, then do another water change.

 

Instructions – with revisions from experience:

Day 1

Big water change (25%) to reduce the dinoflagellate population

Lights Out, then

Drugstore Hydrogen Peroxide (3%) @ 1ml/gal twice a day morning & evening (roughly 12hrs apart)

 

Day 2

if it’s working, continue the dosing @ rate & frequency

If it’s not beginning to work, bump the dose,

Bump to 1.5ml/gal twice a day morning & evening (roughly 12hrs apart)

 

Day 3

if it’s working, continue the dosing @ rate & frequency

If it’s not working, bump the dose,

This is the max dose I used - - 2ml/gal twice a day morning & evening (roughly 12hrs apart)

 

Day 4

You should see nothing, or nearly nothing

If it’s working, continue the dosing @ rate & frequency

If it’s not working, bump the dose,

I have not had to go past 2ml/gal twice a day morning & evening (roughly 12hrs apart)

 

Day 5

Change the water again to get rid of toxins.  Start the lights back up on a reduced cycle (maybe blue only for several days) and watch for recurrence of dinoflagellate – if I comes back even a little, start the H2O2 regimen again.

 

The Story:

Short Story - I fought this stuff for months several years ago and ended up losing two tanks – fish and coral.  When I started both back up, I ended up with a recurrence of Dinoflagellate and some nuisance algae. I began the regimen listed above and the tanks did great. The fish, coral and inverts remain healthy as of this writing.  Over the counter, drugstore 3% H2O2 is cheap and even cheaper at Costco. When all else failed, this worked.

 

Longer Story - Generally, try 1ml to 2ml H2O2 per gallon for dino or algae problems. The worse the problem, the more you use. I started with 1ml/gal for three days with lights out and had some effect on the dino. It came back within a week.  1.5ml/gal was better, but still not enough effect over another three days... it came back. Then, the big gun… 2ml/gal over 4 days… kicked its cellular-arse.

 

Some of you may be screaming – That 10-40 TIMES What you’ve read Elsewhere!  That was my reaction when I went looking for just how high an H2O2 dosage I could try, and found ONE – Only ONE article that reported using up to 2ml/gal for algae removal, fish wounds and oxygenating water for transporting fish.  I found only a couple of articles that went up to 1ml/gal specifically for dinoflagellates, bryopsis and other nuisance algae and for coral dips. So I decided to risk 1ml/gal for sure and ramp up to 2ml/gal if needed.

 

I spent about 5 months trying to beat this the first time and lost nearly everything in 2 tanks (cross contamination from trying to save some corals) using the dosing levels you’ve all read about, .5ml to 1ml/10g. I wasn’t about to spend months fighting this again.  Since I lost everything the first time – what did I have to lose…  As soon as I saw the dino again, I decided it was time for some Darwinian level of action.  I went looking for a better solution, found the one article mentioned above indicating potential safety at up to 2ml/gal and a couple others at 1ml/gal. I decided to jump on it hard.

 

This well known Reco is for .5-1.0ml/10gal: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1955204 and elsewhere…

Thread: Peroxide and the Kiss of Death (Dinoflagellates)

This is what I used the first time. I cautiously ramped up to 4ml/10gal over the months of dark, light, dose, try again. All without any lasting effect - dino took over and killed all. Ultimately I used 35% H2O2 to decontaminate the tanks, which it did very well -  you can believe that!

 

This Reco is 1ml/1gal: https://o-r-c-a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21735

Thread: Dosing Hydrogen Peroxide - The best kept secret for algae and dinos

This was my floor this time around and there are a few more such references if you want to go looking.

 

I only found 1 reference for using up to 2ml/gal (or 2ml/4L in the post) and it was the ticket that worked for me:

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/hydrogen-peroxide-and-its-utility-130482.html

Thread: Hydrogen Peroxide and Its Utility

Once the 1ml/g didn’t kill every living thing in the tank, my confidence grew for 2ml/g as my ceiling.

 

I did lose a lot of snails, but I think many were dying from the dino toxins first.  I didn’t change the water before I started treating – I should have.  Turned off the lights for 3-days, then used just blue for a week, then added low-white ramping up aver a week. If there’s a next time, I’ll do a massive water change, and then start H2O2 @ 1ml/gal and ramp quickly to 2ml/gal over 4 days. (1ml/g, 1.5ml/g, 2ml/g & 2ml/g, lights on to check for living dino, either enough or hit it again!)

 

The snails that survived at the start of the treatment are still here and the amphipod population is still strong.

 

H2O2 is my new best friend for Reef’n.

 

 

 

 

Trying your method..........................shut the lights down and starting dosing Peroxide Friday night. Turned lights on briefly today the check progress, Dinos are gone (day 3), frags losing color as expected. Will continue treatment for the next Two (2) days and do a water change. Hope this works as this is my second attempt in the last Two (2) months. First treatment was with Dino X. Cleared up but returned.

[AlanM]

Quick update on mine.  No sign of dinos.  Fingers crossed.  I'm slowly raising the white channel back up on my lights.  Up to 65% now.  I measured nitrate and phosphate tonight.  NO3 is 1ppm, PO4 is 0.57ppm.  That phosphate is pretty high.  

 

I also tested alk, Ca, and Mg.  All are now high.  I assume consumption by corals went way down when the lights were low for a couple of weeks.  It's not something I'd considered, but I'll have to scale back on the dosers for a while.  I wish Mindstream would get their tester up and working.  Or that I could afford the Apex Trident when it comes out soon. Heh.

[monkiboy]

wow. that was quick - good work and hope the dinos stay at bay. 

 

i'll hook you up with an alkatronic bud and you'll be set; never have to worry about alk ever again. and all the data and stuff you learn about the tank when you start to see the trends. i think you'll find it much more friendly and a welcome addition to the reef than what the trident seems to be all about.

[AlanM]

wow. that was quick - good work and hope the dinos stay at bay. 

 

i'll hook you up with an alkatronic bud and you'll be set; never have to worry about alk ever again. and all the data and stuff you learn about the tank when you start to see the trends. i think you'll find it much more friendly and a welcome addition to the reef than what the trident seems to be all about.

 

I hope they stay at bay too.  I won't be too surprised if they show back up, though.

 

I'd never heard of the Alkatronic.  Looks interesting.  Not on the purchase list for now, but I'd definitely consider it when I'm in the market.

[AlanM]

Got new test kits.  I couldn't believe that nitrate was staying so low while phosphate was so high as Graham pointed out.  

 

It turns out nitrate is actually 24ppm, not 1ppm.  My test kit wasn't working at all.  It was from 2012, so I should have known, heh.  Phosphate is at 0.54ppm on the ULR hanna meter, which is pretty high still.  

 

I have my chaeto back in and it's growing.  It will come down soon.

 

Corals are coloring back up after their high nutrient period and lack of light.

[YHSublime]

OK, got it.

 

I think the solution is that I need way more coral. 

 

When my coral was growing out of control I never had a problem with nutrient or algae.

 

A tank of mostly rock and frags is harder to keep than a full one of coral.

 

I like this solution. I think that was my success with the old 150. 

 

I'm seeing some bubbles pop up on cyano in my tank, I'm chalking it up to new tank syndrome. I have noticed if I cut the whites back, it doesn't rear as fast. I'm just siphoning out what I can daily and exclusively feeding frozen food. I'm confident that my nitrates and phosphates are super elevated, but I think that's why I'm getting some great colors as well. 

 

Did your dinos come back? I'm hesitant to use any kind of chemicals, but I've seen a proven success record with many tanks that I consider fantastic. 

[AlanM]

No dinos back yet.  I am getting some cyano, but I find that charming after the dino problem.  I'm using a little GFO to try to drop phosphates and am dumping light into a growing ball of chaeto to get nitrates down.  I'm also still running UV and carbon. 

 

Corals continue to color up as I turn up the light.  I lost a few of them in the struggle, but most are ok.

[monkiboy]

hey alan, any update on the dinos and params currently?

[AlanM]

Going to take measurements in the morning, but phosphate and nitrate are dropping since I started growing chaeto with iron dosing.  No dinos in sight, but I'm getting some dark red cyano on some of the rocks in areas of low flow.  I just blow it off.  I'm thrilled with the cyano since I think it occupies the same niche as dinos do, heh.

 

My measurement log is here: http://www.aquaticlog.com/aquariums/alanm/4/parameters

 

I've been trying to dose potassium since the meeting as well, but I can't seem to keep it up above 400ppm.  Justin was right that the salifert test for it is way way easier than the red sea one.

[DelRayTank]

Alan, can you provide a long-term update?  Did you definitively rid yourself of Dinos? Did you continue UV or discontinue?

[AlanM]

Dinos never came back.  I kept up with the UV for the duration.  This tank has been down for a year, but after I got rid of them they didn't come back.  I don't remember if I dosed the Dino-X that I bought, but I may have.  I think they're a problem in a true ultra-low-nutrient-system, but most people who never get nutrients down that low don't seem to ever see them.  

[xabo]

Same here, used a UV and never saw them again. I did raise the nutrient level also.

[WheresTheReef]

DelRayTank are you currently dealing with dinos? If so, how old is your tank? I dealt with them early on with my tank. I tried several lights out, peroxide and dinoX and they didn’t work. IME they proliferated when the nutrients were super low and the tank was not fully established. What ultimately worked was when I raised nutrients by removing GFO, reducing white lights to 4 hrs max, and stopping water changes for 3-4 months. I also manually siphoned them into a filter sock in the sump. Once they finally went away I added the white lights back to the normal schedule little by little while observing that they didn’t show up.