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plumbing my dual overflow 180


fellterrier

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Looking for assistance/guidance on plumbing my dual overflow 180 reef tank. I'm in North laurel MD. Howard County. anyone close? Also any good website, vidoes or books that show the latest and greatest techniques please let me know.

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I mean, what are you looking for? Dual overflow means you're probably running a durso. Two drains, two returns. 1" drain, 3/4 return.

 

 

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IMO the latest and greatest technique is beananimal plumbing, requiring three holes.  It's superior to the Durso, but would require extra work to configure it to a classic dual corner overflow.

 

You'll get the best performance by removing the corner overflows, plugging the holes, and drilling the back of the tank for a low profile overflow with three drains for a beananimal setup.  But that may not be a good fit for you, depending on your spacing behind the tank and ability to drill the tank.

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All thanks for the advice, The tank isn't set up yet as I am trying to come up with the best scenario without drilling any extra holes. Question, with the Herbie method do you have to plumb each drain separately to the sump or do you run both them tee them together into one drain.

 

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There's some good info here: http://gmacreef.com

Just read it. Awesome. So I see that using a Tee is to be avoided so each return will be go independent to the sump. Two overflows can be tedious when it comes to adjustments so I'm thinking about either abandoning one side or removing it all together.

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Just read it. Awesome. So I see that using a Tee is to be avoided so each return will be go independent to the sump. Two overflows can be tedious when it comes to adjustments so I'm thinking about either abandoning one side or removing it all together.

 

You wouldn't run your two overflows herbie style.

 

Unless you're planning on removing your overflows and drilling an external overflow box, why don't you just go with x2 drains, x2 returns, and do durso style on your drains? You can T the returns together. A quick google search will yield pictures than you could ever hope for. Google the following setups: Durso, Herbie, and Bean Animal. Didn't you have a big 180? How did you plumb that? 

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You wouldn't run your two overflows herbie style.

 

Unless you're planning on removing your overflows and drilling an external overflow box, why don't you just go with x2 drains, x2 returns, and do durso style on your drains? You can T the returns together. A quick google search will yield pictures than you could ever hope for. Google the following setups: Durso, Herbie, and Bean Animal. Didn't you have a big 180? How did you plumb that?

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IMO the latest and greatest technique is beananimal plumbing, requiring three holes.  It's superior to the Durso, but would require extra work to configure it to a classic dual corner overflow.

 

You'll get the best performance by removing the corner overflows, plugging the holes, and drilling the back of the tank for a low profile overflow with three drains for a beananimal setup.  But that may not be a good fit for you, depending on your spacing behind the tank and ability to drill the tank.

 

Hmmm. Does anybody think it would be infeasible to reconfigure three of the four outlets in this dual overflow configuration as a BeanAnimal overflow, and use the last line as a return?  A little unconventional, but it might work....

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Hmmm. Does anybody think it would be infeasible to reconfigure three of the four outlets in this dual overflow configuration as a BeanAnimal overflow, and use the last line as a return?  A little unconventional, but it might work....

with dual boxes it isn't consistent and becomes troublesome to fine tune although if one were to try I'd do the emergency and return in one and the full and partial siphons in the other. but surface skimming really isn't efficient with the stock small toothed weirs. Edited by monkiboy
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with dual boxes it isn't consistent and becomes troublesome to fine tune although if one were to try I'd do the emergency and return in one and the full and partial siphons in the other. but surface skimming really isn't efficient with the stock small toothed weirs.

That configuration is what I was thinking about in terms of usage. You'd still get about 8-10linear inches of surface skimming from the weir (admittedly, not much), but all to one end of the tank. You'd need to make sure that you had good surface agitation to make sure any organics wouldn't pool to one side. Definitely a compromised design - but maybe not to much so.

 

This guy at Utah Reefs had an idea that used both ends as siphons and emergency overflows. Then went over the top for the return. You can get by the flow limitation through the weir by cutting out alternate teeth in the weir - or all of them and going with a slot-weir.

 

Tank_Plumbing_1.1.jpg

 

 

Fellterrier: The traditional way to plumb that tank is with two Durso or Stockman standpipes - one in each oveflow - typically on the 1" line. The 3/4 inch lines are used as twin returns. Often times, you'll see a hole or a notch in the near the weir. This is where your return line (terminating in locline) enters the main body of the tank. See this image for an example that uses a commercially available Durso-type standpipe:

 

41ciSkSRiuL.jpg

 

Beneath the tank, the two return lines are up-sized to 1" and will typically go to a T and then onto the return pump. In some cases, the aquarist will put a valve on each line. (But, if you do, it may not see much use.) Some aquarists will put a check valve on the common line going from the T to the pump. As long as the check valve is working, this will prevent water being siphoned from the locline returns back down to the sump when the main pump is off. 

 

The drains can be plumbed together, but I prefer to keep them separate (to mitigate the risk of a common line clogging). I like to put valves and unions in at strategic places so that I can remove / repair / replace the return pump when needed.

 

This describes a fairly simple and standard way of plumbing these lines with a submersible (in-sump) pump. 

 

This graphic, found on the web, shows the basic idea. (Igonore the roller filter or whatever that is at item C.) This diagram was found on wetwebmedia's freshwater refugium faq, but the configuration is fairly standard. It's on this page.

 

Aquarium%20Plan%20Rev%203.jpg

 

Just a few ideas for you.

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For my 125 with dual overflows, I did a dual herbie. I used the 1 inch drains for the siphon and the 3/4 in for the emergency. I have the return come over the top of the tank. I do need to adjust both of the siphons every few days, but it's not that big of a deal.

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That configuration is what I was thinking about in terms of usage. You'd still get about 8-10linear inches of surface skimming from the weir (admittedly, not much), but all to one end of the tank. You'd need to make sure that you had good surface agitation to make sure any organics wouldn't pool to one side. Definitely a compromised design - but maybe not to much so.

 

This guy at Utah Reefs had an idea that used both ends as siphons and emergency overflows. Then went over the top for the return. You can get by the flow limitation through the weir by cutting out alternate teeth in the weir - or all of them and going with a slot-weir.

 

Tank_Plumbing_1.1.jpg

 

 

Fellterrier: The traditional way to plumb that tank is with two Durso or Stockman standpipes - one in each oveflow - typically on the 1" line. The 3/4 inch lines are used as twin returns. Often times, you'll see a hole or a notch in the near the weir. This is where your return line (terminating in locline) enters the main body of the tank. See this image for an example that uses a commercially available Durso-type standpipe:

 

41ciSkSRiuL.jpg

 

Beneath the tank, the two return lines are up-sized to 1" and will typically go to a T and then onto the return pump. In some cases, the aquarist will put a valve on each line. (But, if you do, it may not see much use.) Some aquarists will put a check valve on the common line going from the T to the pump. As long as the check valve is working, this will prevent water being siphoned from the locline returns back down to the sump when the main pump is off. 

 

The drains can be plumbed together, but I prefer to keep them separate (to mitigate the risk of a common line clogging). I like to put valves and unions in at strategic places so that I can remove / repair / replace the return pump when needed.

 

This describes a fairly simple and standard way of plumbing these lines with a submersible (in-sump) pump. 

 

This graphic, found on the web, shows the basic idea. (Igonore the roller filter or whatever that is at item C.) This diagram was found on wetwebmedia's freshwater refugium faq, but the configuration is fairly standard. It's on this page.

 

Aquarium%20Plan%20Rev%203.jpg

 

Just a few ideas for you.

This is Awesome. Thanks. I believe this is what I am going to do. Is this set up quiet?

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This is Awesome. Thanks. I believe this is what I am going to do. Is this set up quiet?

 

All I did was a few image searches on topics that I had some idea of the keywords on, and found enough to get you started. So, no problem.

 

The Durso (and later the Stockman) standpipes were sort of first-generation devices that were quieter than an open standpipe. When tuned, both can be fairly quiet with just the sound of a little air going into the vent. There's often the sound of water arriving in the sump that needs to be dealt with (I've found that bubble diffusers and filter socks can help cut that down). If not tuned, they can be noisy. Especially if they're not vented properly, they can make a periodic flushing noise as the water alternates between full siphon and refilling the area behind the overflow. One of the cool things about the Durso and Stockman designs was that, if the water backed up (but the pipe was not clogged), it covered the vent and the pipe went into full siphon to increase water flow and self-correct from the rising water situation. Unfortunately, this can lead to that toilet-flushing sound if it becomes a periodic thing.

 

Later, the Herbie overflow configuration came on the scene. It was, as I recall, one of the first configurations that exploited the quiet operation of a drain in full-siphon as the centerpiece in the design. However, by doing so, there was no extra capacity to deal with water backing up as there was in the Durso design. To compensate for that, a second pipe was added to serve as a tricke drain and emergency drain. For tanks that only had two holes drilled in their overflow compartment, this meant that the return line had to either come over the top or through additional holes drilled in the back of the tank. One advantage of the Herbie is that it's quieter than the Durso/Stockman configuration.

 

BeanAnimal (that's Be An Animal for those that don't know the history), a frequent technical contributor to the Reef Central Community built his overflow design on the shoulders of the Herbie, adding yet another level of redundancy (protection) from drain blockage. You see, with the primary drain of the Herbie being in full siphon, if it were blocked, the water level would rise and the emergency drain (which is typically, at best, the same size) would be swamped and go into full siphon. If the emergency drain were undersized, then it could not handle the rate and the tank could possibly overflow (depending upon how the sump chambers were designed). Even if it was larger, a pipe with water running through it (as with a trickle drain) could support diameter-narrowing growth (i.e. pineapple sponge, etc.) that slowly degrade the capacity of the drain and can lead to a lot of unexpected water on the floor. To address this risk, BeanAnimal added a third (dry) standpipe to the basic Herbie design. 

 

So that's a bit of the history of how we got to where we are today with these drains. Richard Durso, the hobbyist that originated the Durso overflow, actually lives in the area and has showed up at meetings in the past. So, in a way, we're intimately connected with the history of these drains (which I find rather cool). 

 

If you were willing to add holes or go over the top for a return, a dual Herbie configuration would work and be fairly quiet. If you were adding holes you could, in fact, add a hole above the water line or add plumbing to bring an extra port above the waterline to use as an dry drain, making it more like a modified BeanAnimal design.

 

I just stumbled across this entry in Marine Depot's blog that you may find educational. I recommend your taking a good look at it.

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(edited)

 

All I did was a few image searches on topics that I had some idea of the keywords on, and found enough to get you started. So, no problem.

 

The Durso (and later the Stockman) standpipes were sort of first-generation devices that were quieter than an open standpipe. When tuned, both can be fairly quiet with just the sound of a little air going into the vent. There's often the sound of water arriving in the sump that needs to be dealt with (I've found that bubble diffusers and filter socks can help cut that down). If not tuned, they can be noisy. Especially if they're not vented properly, they can make a periodic flushing noise as the water alternates between full siphon and refilling the area behind the overflow. One of the cool things about the Durso and Stockman designs was that, if the water backed up (but the pipe was not clogged), it covered the vent and the pipe went into full siphon to increase water flow and self-correct from the rising water situation. Unfortunately, this can lead to that toilet-flushing sound if it becomes a periodic thing.

 

Later, the Herbie overflow configuration came on the scene. It was, as I recall, one of the first configurations that exploited the quiet operation of a drain in full-siphon as the centerpiece in the design. However, by doing so, there was no extra capacity to deal with water backing up as there was in the Durso design. To compensate for that, a second pipe was added to serve as a tricke drain and emergency drain. For tanks that only had two holes drilled in their overflow compartment, this meant that the return line had to either come over the top or through additional holes drilled in the back of the tank. One advantage of the Herbie is that it's quieter than the Durso/Stockman configuration.

 

BeanAnimal (that's Be An Animal for those that don't know the history), a frequent technical contributor to the Reef Central Community built his overflow design on the shoulders of the Herbie, adding yet another level of redundancy (protection) from drain blockage. You see, with the primary drain of the Herbie being in full siphon, if it were blocked, the water level would rise and the emergency drain (which is typically, at best, the same size) would be swamped and go into full siphon. If the emergency drain were undersized, then it could not handle the rate and the tank could possibly overflow (depending upon how the sump chambers were designed). Even if it was larger, a pipe with water running through it (as with a trickle drain) could support diameter-narrowing growth (i.e. pineapple sponge, etc.) that slowly degrade the capacity of the drain and can lead to a lot of unexpected water on the floor. To address this risk, BeanAnimal added a third (dry) standpipe to the basic Herbie design. 

 

So that's a bit of the history of how we got to where we are today with these drains. Richard Durso, the hobbyist that originated the Durso overflow, actually lives in the area and has showed up at meetings in the past. So, in a way, we're intimately connected with the history of these drains (which I find rather cool). 

 

If you were willing to add holes or go over the top for a return, a dual Herbie configuration would work and be fairly quiet. If you were adding holes you could, in fact, add a hole above the water line or add plumbing to bring an extra port above the waterline to use as an dry drain, making it more like a modified BeanAnimal design.

 

I just stumbled across this entry in Marine Depot's blog that you may find educational. I recommend your taking a good look at it.

Thanks for the wonderful insight. If you recall, I had a 265  gallon reef tank for many years and used the Herbie method and I loved it because it was so quiet. That tank had a single overflow so it was fairly simple to set up. My new tank, the 180 with the dual overflow's threw me off. The old tank had two holes for return lines. The new tank has two holes in each overflow. I read somewhere that with the herbie method, you should never tie the drains together, that they should be separate and independent and with dual overflows the herbie method can be very hard to adjust. If that is the case, I would have four returns coming back to sump. For me, that seems a bit much. So my question is, for the dual herbie can I tee together the two main drains and the two emergencies and not worry about noise and /or adjustment nightmares?

Edited by fellterrier
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Thanks for the wonderful insight. If you recall, I had a 265  gallon reef tank for many years and used the Herbie method and I loved it because it was so quiet. That tank had a single overflow so it was fairly simple to set up. My new tank, the 180 with the dual overflow's threw me off. The old tank had two holes for return lines. The new tank has two holes in each overflow. I read somewhere that with the herbie method, you should never tie the drains together, that they should be separate and independent and with dual overflows the herbie method can be very hard to adjust. If that is the case, I would have four returns coming back to sump. For me, that seems a bit much. So my question is, for the dual herbie can I tee together the two main drains and the two emergencies and not worry about noise and /or adjustment nightmares?

First, my guess would be that you would not want to tie the two siphon drains together in a Herbie configuration. If you did, you would want to do it low and only merging them into a larger pipe. But, to keep the best siphon "pull" on the water, you'd want to keep dedicated lines going down all the way to the sump for these two lines. The two trickle (or emergency) drains can be tied together because you're likely to be way under the capacity of the pipe there. The two-Herbie method would only be difficult to tune at the beginning as you'd want two siphons to be sustained. That means that you're basically going to try to tune each to half-capacity. Easier to say than to do, but once you get it dialed in, it's probably pretty stable. However, up above, it looks like CPU933K says that he has to adjust his siphon every few days, so it's probably not as stable as I would have it be. 

 

A 180 is a bit smaller than your old 265. I had a 180 with dual overflows a few years back. It wasn't too long before I began the real estate taken up by the overflows as being a whole lot of wasted space that I could have used for improved flow behind rock work, etc. Since you're still in the mental-design stage, you may want to consider the suggestion made earlier about removing the OEM overflows and closing off those holes. Then you could add after-market overflows such as the a pair of 16-inch Shadow overflows from Synergy Reef or something similar. At an extra $300 or so, it would be a fairly significant extra expense, though, and it may not be worth it to you. However, since the tank is not operating yet, now's the time to consider the option. It would be a lot harder to implement once the tank is up and running. 

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