Mind Blown

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

John Tullock, in his book “Natural Reef Aquariums” (TFH, 2001) states

 

 

Consider the equilibrium that is achieved in a system that has been running for a year or more with no additions of new animals.   Apart from the growth of the original specimens, there may be little change in the biomass.  A stable population of nitrifying bacteria will convert [ammonia to nitrate].  As soon as it is produced, the nitrtate is converted to nitrogen by the denitrfying bacteria [in the DSB or deep in the rocks] When such an equilibrium exists, the net amount of nitrogen measurable in the water, whether as ammonia, nitrate, or nitrite, will be zero.  This is a fundamental observation that has been overlooked in the past.   

 

Similarly, stability in other water parameters… occurs when an equilibrium condition is reached.  [if a fish dies, there’s an ammonia/nitrate/phosphate spike]… bacterial population always experiences a lag in adjusting to the newly available food supply.  Organic matter and phosphate are also released, and some of the latter is quickly consumed by algae, which experience a noticeable surge in growth.  

 

The inexperienced aquarist may react to these changes with panic, taking all sorts of measures to restore the system to its former state.   Removing any undecayed portion of the dead fish, changing some water and persevering in routine care are all that need to be done, however.  A healthy system will return to equilibrium on its own.

 

 

Reading this blew my mind.  

 

Not in a “I am the first to lean that my 20 year old brother is actually named Aegon Targaryen, and the past 20 years of political/military history is all a lie” sense.  Nor even a “the Sith Lord who killed my dad is actually my dad.  And both halves of that statement are true, from a certain point of view” sense.  

 

I mean this in the sense that, if true, it’s  fundamental philosophical reset.  I don’t think I’ll be doing anything really different for my nascent, albeit temporary tank, but the way I approach things will be different.  

 

Right now, my tank is about 2.5 months old.   I tried to jump start the ammonia-> nitrate process by using a seeded marinepure block from someone else's tank, as well as a bacteria bottle and ammonia drops.  That worked, but my nitrates steadily increased even before I added fish (and even more afterward because the fish I chose are finicky about eating, which is a separate story). I had a diatoms/algae outbreak, which I was not too worried about in small portions because I intuitively (from previous long term FW tanks as well as AP bio many years ago) sensed what Tullock was saying, and that the algae cycle was normal.  

 

But, algae grew more than I thought, and nitrates can easily go over 20 if I don’t do water changes or feed too much. My alkalinity loses like 10ppm a day, and there are resultant pH problems.  Also, there is rampant growth of Bispira feather dusters on the marinepure*.  

 

I thought this was due to bad management on my part, and part of it probably is.  I thought that getting macro algae and a small cuc would help with the nitrate/microalgae problem (which they have, some).  I'm a bit worried about the tank, to be honest.

 

But, if Tullock was correct, I think that this is the normal post ammona-nitate cycling process, and that while getting macro algae and a small CUC are good (especially with a few fish), many of these things will be settled with time, especially since I have most everything I need.   

 

Now, if I start to add stuff (Especialy a lot of stuff) I’ll throw off the equilibrium.  I think this is why people recommend not adding SPS and the like for at least several months in a new tank.     

 

Anyway, just some things I'm thinking about while I'm away from my tank for two weeks.  

 

 

 

* A few would be good; 50 is more than I wanted.  Besides, the Mrs. thinks the MP is ugly and the Bispira disgusting.  I would sump the marinepure but I don’t have a sump yet, and since this tank is to be temporary before a larger one that I need to get this summer, lest I lose hundreds of dollars of credit I have with one manufacturer.  I feel I’m in a bit of a catch-22.

 

For that matter, for this future tank, I will jump start the system again with bacteria in a bottle, as well as by adding lots-of-life aquacultured rock and all the trouble I know that can bring.  But when I do, I’ll let it ride for six-ish months before adding much more livestock, or doing anything drastic with parameters.  And probably not take down/move the stuff in my old tank until the new one’s been running at least 2-3 months.

[Origami]

It's all about balance. The nitrogen cycle is just one of many nutrient recycling cycles in your tank and in the environment. Keep in mind, however, that, when you feed your tank, you're introducing nitrogen, phosphorus, and other elements that represent new inputs to your tank. When these elements are present in bio-available forms in your tank, then (along with carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and other elements) they will almost inevitably get picked up by some piece of life, whether it's bacteria, cyanobacteria, algae, or other more complex life forms. Unfortunately, you don't always get to pick where the nutrients go and, under certain circumstances, you may find that conditions favor cyano or algae or some other nuisance. So, yes, don't overreact. However, you can't always sit on your hands and think that waiting will always return your tank to a pristine state, because sometimes the balance of nutrient input favor a balanced state that is less than where you want it to be.

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Thanks, Tom.

 

Correct, neither he nor anyone sensible would advocate just leaving junk to rot in the tank. Or to not do water changes, etc.

[zygote2k]

2.5 months old? If you were doing the tank the right way, you'd just now be maybe adding your first animal like a snail.

John Tullock and the people of the past didnt "cycle" tanks in less than 60-90 days. 

[Rob A]

That book excerpt seems to suggests that nitrates will just eventually balance out to 0 on their own. Has this ever happened for anyone (with fish) without some proactive measures such as dosing carbon (vodka/sugar/vinegar/nopox), running a denitrifier, algae scrubber, chaeto ball, etc? 

Edited November 15, 2017 by Rob A

[dnoll]

When I started a new tank with dry rock in June I used ammonium chloride to induce a cycle. My nitrates in turn spiked to a very high level. I had to do some water changes to bring them down, but really it was just time that did the most work. Since my cycle finished at ~8 weeks), I have never gotten an ammonia, nitrite or nitrate reading (all 0). I had some green hair algae growth for a while, but that has also since stopped. A large amount of live rock/sand relative to my bioload seems to keep everything in check for me so far with no additional tampering beyond regular maintenance.

[Rob A]

I've always had a high bioload, for the last 9 years and several tank swaps (120, then 220 then 150). I'm thinking about getting rid of my big fish so I can clean up my system and focus on hard corals. I ran a couple different coral only frag system for a couple of years and still had some nitrates and phosphates but they were more easily controlled.  

Edited November 15, 2017 by Rob A

[Marc Weaver]

That book excerpt seems to suggests that nitrates will just eventually balance out to 0 on their own. Has this ever happened for anyone (with fish) without some proactive measures such as dosing carbon (vodka/sugar/vinegar/nopox), running a denitrifier, algae scrubber, chaeto ball, etc? 

 

Not to me.  Quite the opposite actually.  The only way I was ever able to reduce or level out nitrates was to do water changes or with carbon dosing.  My tank's been untouched for years and I have always had nitrates that slowly built up over time.  Once I learned not to chase numbers around if everything looks OK, I was able to enjoy the hobby much better.  My tank's nitrates are always between 20-50 on several test kit brands, but all coral is growing and looks OK.  The acros are slightly on the darker side color-wise, but not brown.  I have an algae mass in my frag tank that I control with manual removal, but zero in the display tank.

[YHSublime]

Not to me. Quite the opposite actually. The only way I was ever able to reduce or level out nitrates was to do water changes or with carbon dosing. My tank's been untouched for years and I have always had nitrates that slowly built up over time. Once I learned not to chase numbers around if everything looks OK, I was able to enjoy the hobby much better. My tank's nitrates are always between 20-50 on several test kit brands, but all coral is growing and looks OK. The acros are slightly on the darker side color-wise, but not brown. I have an algae mass in my frag tank that I control with manual removal, but zero in the display tank.

I prefer darker acro. I think the T5 fades it out.

 

 

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[Origami]

That book excerpt seems to suggests that nitrates will just eventually balance out to 0 on their own. Has this ever happened for anyone (with fish) without some proactive measures such as dosing carbon (vodka/sugar/vinegar/nopox), running a denitrifier, algae scrubber, chaeto ball, etc?

Yes. When I started imy first tank. With live rock and sand only.

 

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[malacoda]

That book excerpt seems to suggests that nitrates will just eventually balance out to 0 on their own. Has this ever happened for anyone (with fish) without some proactive measures such as dosing carbon (vodka/sugar/vinegar/nopox), running a denitrifier, algae scrubber, chaeto ball, etc? 

 

Yep ... although it depends on what you consider 'proactive measures' to be.

 

I set up my 24g two years ago using 'The Package' from Tampa Bay Saltwater. In essence, a 2" deep sand bed and ~30lbs of Walt Smith reef rock that was aqua-cultured in the Gulf of Mexico. For the first 10 months my nitrates wouldn't fall below 12-15ppm.

 

Suspecting it was due to the Walt Smith rock not being porous enough, I plumped a homemade 'nitrate reactor' into my system. All this 'reactor' is though is a mayo jar with some micro-porous rock (Seachem De*nitrate) in it ... which provides the proper environment for the anaerobic bacteria in the system to take hold and do their work. Within a week my nitrates dropped to ~1ppm, where they've remained ever since. If I had used properly porous rock in my DT in the first place, I wouldn't have needed to add any rock to my sump.

 

Either way though the effect would've been the same - near-zero nitrates with no special treatments other than proper rock for the natural de-nitrifying process to take place.