RODI alternatives

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

RODI Alternatives

 

Since I have a small reef tank (29G) I wanted to get away with not buying a RODI unit, at least initially, so I started looking for alternate water sources.

 

By now, two months into my tank, I’ve done enough measurements of all the alternate water sources.

 

TLDR: the only worthwhile alternative is to go with is distilled water, Petco boxed water, or your LFS if, and only if, their water is very good/reasonably priced.   Other things are not reliable enough to be worth it.  

 

LFS’ aside, I’d probably go with just Petco if I had a 10 gallon tank because I wouldn’t want to bother with salt mixing (and because you can have them drop ship to your home), but if you are very concerned about your parameters you must go with distilled.  I’d be on the fence if I had a 10-20gallon tank.  But if it was over 20G, I’d go with a RODI unit.   

 

I’ll give some measurements plus my comments on the alternatives.  

 

Petco Pacific Ocean Seawater

pH 7.8

Nitrate: ~2

Salinity ~32

Phos ~0.06 (two of four were odd readings from Hanna)

Alk ~182 (one off reading of 174 out of 5 in the 181-184 range)

Comment: they claim this is filtered water from the Pacific ocean (presumably collected in a clear, reasonably deep area near the US west coast, without any pollution.   This is actually fairly good water, though not perfect.  Of note, it’s like $9.50 per five gallons at petco.com ($12.50 in store, but you can show them the online price and they’ll match it).   I would go for this, save for the fact that it’s far and away the most expensive option. 

 

Primo filtered fresh water machine 

TDS 25

Phos: ~ 0.06 (0.06-0.08 over 5 measurements)

Nitrate: ~1-2 mg/L

Comment: these RO machines are in walmart as well as MOM's organic market, for $0.40/gallon (fresh water, so about .90/gal after mixing in salt water).  This is far and away the cheapest and most convenient RODI alternative, assuming one lives near wally-world or said grocer (as I do). The problem is that no one really knows how well the Primo company maintains each particular machine.  I’ve measured a few samples over time and the TDS remains fairly constant; however, the machine at the Arlington MOM’s was been broken for a month as of the time I originally wrote this.  So, I judge this no-go.  That being said, their water tastes awesome.

 

FYI, Arlington tap water TDS is 244. 

 

Deer Park Spring Water

117 tds

Nitrate 4-5 (two instances)

Phos: 0.30

Comment: not worth bothering with.  I made a mistake when I started with this; Zygote2k uses Deer Park *purified* water, not Deer Park *spring* water.  I take purified water to be their near-distilled water, which I have not seen available at retail stores and thus have no ability to measure (I would trust his experience, though - if it works well it should work well).  

 

At my local grocer Deer Park spring is the same price as as distilled water, so I see no value in using it over distilled water.   I would not go with other, especially smaller store/botique drinking water brands simply because no one know’s what’s in it; I’d imagine Deer park is among the most consistent brands.

 

Reef Escape

Alk: 180

Phos 2.03, 2.11 (very colored when I mixed in the Hanna reagent; basically you didn’t even need the actual measurement because it’s clearly very high.  NOTE THAT IMO there was likely some sample contamination, given their discussion of their procedures below, or that I screwed up my sample collection (I kind of doubt the latter, but you never know).  Anyway, don't take this as necessarily The Eternal Truth about phosphates in their water; I'd trust what Phil wrote below)

pH 7.8

Nitrate: ~0.5-1

Comment: I was told the salt mix was Omega Reef salt.  Assuming their parameters are good, this is a viable option.  

[zygote2k]

There are 2 different types of Deer Park. One is Spring water and the other is Purified water.

Spring water can have P04 and N03 and Purified is R/O D/I water with little to no TDS and zero Po4 or N03.

 

We use Purified water in several dozen tanks with great results, one of them is an SPS tank.

[Origami]

Note that my sample was not measured immediately when I got back from the store, but this was taken from water stored in a bucket several weeks. However, I don't think storage can account for this surprising, strange, and disappointing phosphate reading.

 

Great post. However, water that's stored in a bucket for several weeks may have life growing in it (bacterial slime and algae on the surfaces and floating in the water) that could potentially impact phosphate and nitrate readings. 

 

The same potential situation occurs in our home storage containers if they're not cleaned periodically.

[treesprite]

Great post. However, water that's stored in a bucket for several weeks may have life growing in it (bacterial slime and algae on the surfaces and floating in the water) that could potentially impact phosphate and nitrate readings.

 

The same potential situation occurs in our home storage containers if they're not cleaned periodically.

Good information to have! Thanks, Tom.

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Thanks, all.  My apologies for the typos in the the OP - I was up too late.  :D

 

Rob,

 

Ah, good to know.  I believe the only one you can get in the grocery store is Deer Park Spring Water.  :(  At least that's the case here in Arlington (and again, distilled water is cheaper than the Spring Water)

 

 

Great post. However, water that's stored in a bucket for several weeks may have life growing in it (bacterial slime and algae on the surfaces and floating in the water) that could potentially impact phosphate and nitrate readings. 

 

The same potential situation occurs in our home storage containers if they're not cleaned periodically.

 

 

Thanks, Tom.   Do you have more info/a link to more info about this?

Edited October 26, 2017 by KingOfAll_Tyrants

[Origami]

Thanks, all.  My apologies for the typos in the the OP - I was up too late.  :D

 

Rob,

 

Ah, good to know.  I believe the only one you can get in the grocery store is Deer Park Spring Water.  :(  At least that's the case here in Arlington (and again, distilled water is cheaper than the Spring Water)

 

 

 

 

Thanks, Tom.   Do you have more info/a link to more info about this?

 

Search on the terms "salt water storage reef nitrate and phosphate" and you'll find plenty of stories - mostly hobbyist observations. I'm not aware of any papers or articles, though, of bacterial counts linked saltwater storage and subsequent dissolved nutrients in the water. It's based on the observation that we see bacterial films develop over time when we store water over weeks.

 

Life needs phophates an nitrates to build cells. Nitrogen is a fundamental element in amino acids and proteins, and phosphorus a key element in the phosphate backbone of DNA. For a bacterial film to develop, both need to be present. When you let water sit for a while in suitable conditions, bacteria almost inevitably invade and colonize. That, in fact, is what we rely on when we cycle a tank. Those bacteria live and die and, as they die, they decompose and release components including nitrates and phosphates into the water, which other bacteria and algae and such consume. It's not a sterile environment. Not at all. It may start out very nearly so with clean water and dry salt mix, but life soon invades. Every one of us see evidence of this in bacterial films. They wouldn't be there if conditions didn't support life. So, to take measurements on a water sample that's been sitting around for a while (weeks) - well, it's not the same as taking it when freshly mixed.

 

Now, I'm not saying that the water that you got from the shop didn't have phosphates and nitrates in it to start with. After all, it may have been sitting for a while in a container with bacterial films in it back in the shop. (Maybe they don't clean out their storage containers very often.) But, you need to realize the difference and the weakness in a test protocol that lets something sit stale for weeks before taking your measurements and attributing the results entirely to the source. Instead, you should have started with clean containers and taken measurements immediately.

 

Listen, I've seen very similar effects in my storage containers over time. For example, if I plunge a TDS meter into my RO/DI container that's not been washed in a long while, I'll often come up with a non-zero reading. However, if I drip RO/DI into a clean beaker and take a reading there, the TDS reading is zero. But, if I do the same thing after cleaning out my storage container, the TDS is zero. Why is that? It's because what was a clean container to start with has gotten "dirty" with time. Similarly, I'll often get a film in my saltwater storage and on the cord of my mixing pump (which basically lives in the container - no pun intended), as I'm sure that most of us who keep a saltwater storage container do. Personally, I don't worry about it too much. That is, I don't spend a lot of time fighting the development of bacterial films in my storage tanks. But I do acknowledge that it's a sign of something growing and, therefore, of conditions (including nutrients) favorable for life.

[YHSublime]

Why is an RO/DI out of the question? I know several people in Arlington, all apartments or condos, that have RO/DI's. Save yourself the headache and pull the trigger. 

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

It's not out of the question at all. As I said:

 

I’d be on the fence if I had a 10-20gallon ( and might just use store-bought distilled water). But if it was over 20G, I’d go with a RODI unit.

I thought I could sort of get away with this for a FOWLR tank, a bet which doesn't look like it's paid off. I can't afford an RODI unit right now, but when I get out the first thing I'm going to do is get a RODI filter.

Edited November 1, 2017 by KingOfAll_Tyrants

[Grav]

First, I'd like to thank you for the positive comment about the staff at our store.  Our #1 goal is to help people be successful with their aquarium and that starts with good staff, health animals and helpful info.  

 

About our water:  I believe our RO/DI system is the most advanced in the area.  We purchased the 3,000 Gallon Per Day (yes that is three thousand GPD) RO/DI that was the workhorse for water at DC MACNA 2015, and added a Granular Activated Carbon stage, booster pump to account for our poor water pressure in our building, and 2 additional stages of DI 

 

Water passes through:

1.5 cubic feet of granular carbon

1 micron 20 inch  "Big Boy" sediment filter

1 micron  20 inch "Big Boy" carbon Block

pressure booster pump 

3,000 GPD membrane 

Then 4 20" cartridge stages of DI (Mixed Bed Deionization resin) 

Water is made in minimum batches of about 75 gallons to prevent TDS creep and maximize DI resin life

a TDS meter is permanently in place and checked weekly to measure the total dissolved solids between stage 2 and 3 of the DI and the cartridges are changed when we see any detectable TDS in the water.  The meter is on display and you are welcome to check it any time you are in the store buying water.  

 

Water is regularly checked with our Milwakee Low range (0.00 to 2.50 ppm ) professional phosphate photometer 

We frequently send water samples off to TRITON to confirm our own tests and get numbers for parameters we can not test for.  

 

Having said all that, nobody is perfect, and anything is possible. We all know that bad batches of salt making it to market and something could have slipped passed our processes. I appreciate you pointing out that the numbers could have been corrupted by something in the bucket and/or time from it leaving our store. We like to use every opportunity to learn, and I think this is one.  I'm curious when you were in, and if you have any of that water still left?  Perhaps we could run our tests and yours side by side on the same water sample and compare the results?  

 

Please email me at Phil@reefescape.net  or give us a call at the store.  (703)261-6996 or on my cell phone (703)943-6631 

 

THANKS again for bringing this to our attention.  

 

Oh, and there are some new at-home RO/DI systems that are both inexpensive and can be put just about anywhere... even under a small bathroom sink.  Let us show you some options next time you are in.  

 

Phil 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Grav

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Thanks, Phil, for replying and to providing such good detail!

 

Unfortunately, I don't have any of the sample anymore. And it could've been simple determination or even (gasp) user error.

[Grav]

King, 

 

When did you get the water from us?  If you don't know exactly when, just an about would help.    We keep records of just about everything and this could help.  Was this last month or a year ago?  

 

We were moving our water system today as part of our expansion, but before we did we tested the water in both the RO/DI vats and the salt vat and they both came back at 0.00 Phosphate on our Milwaukee colorometer. The 1st and 2nd stage DI carts were in fact exhausted and in need of replacement as water was getting past them at a TDS of 2... but still coming our after stages 3 and 4 of DI at a TDS of zero. 

 

I'd still welcome you to visit with your test kits and we could do some tests side by side.  Even bring your other water samples to help compare. 

 

It seems we are coming to an agreement that something may be off with your original test results.  Would you consider going back to your original post and editing it?  Someone might read just the 1st post of this thread and not the detail of our later conversation and get the impression we are selling some really terrible water.  

 

Thanks again! 

 

Phil 

[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Phil, if I could edit my post, I gladly would. There are numerous typos in it besides.

 

I will take you up sometime on your test offer, but it will probably be in December sometime.

 

I think I got the water 10/9.

Edited November 7, 2017 by KingOfAll_Tyrants

[molcott]

I just ordered a new rodi filter system so when it comes in next week you can have my old one it is gonna need new filters though cause it is burning through di resin

 

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[YHSublime]

I just ordered a new rodi filter system so when it comes in next week you can have my old one it is gonna need new filters though cause it is burning through di resin

 

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What a guy!

 

 

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[KingOfAll_Tyrants]

Indeed. Thank you very much!

 

I am going to be on a plane for the next 24 hours or so, I cannot edit the OP, I will do so when I arrive.