Origami November 16, 2017 Share November 16, 2017 Working through my kalk topoff method and curious about any suggestions. In the past, I had RO water in a later container, which got pulled by a LM3 which fed a kalk reactor, which then gravity fed into my sump. With my water in the basement now and limited space below my tank, that's not a possibility. My original plan was to draw kalk water from a still 10 gallon reservoir containing kalkwasser, separate from my ro reservoir. However, the logistics of getting water from the RO reservoir (55 gallon drum with AVAST barrel tender) to the 10 gallon reservoir is an added step that I think I can skip. Does anyone see a problem with simply drawing water from the 55 galon drum and added kalk directly to it? it's metered by the LM3 so no chance of overdose of kalk. It'll be a pain to cleanout the barrel of kalk but if it's once a year, it should be doable. I don't imagine it would cause problems with the barrel tender. I will have to weight down the feed to the LM3 so it sits at the bottom, since I believe the barrel tender doesn't kick on until the container gets near empty (correct?) Am I missing anything? This is a legitimate way of dosing kalkwasser and is the way Randy Holmes-Farley has described his method of delivering kalk. You would probably want to stir the barrel at least once a day, though, to ensure that the kalkwasser remains saturated. You can probably do this with a pump suspended above the bottom and controlled by a timer. The process of stirring the solution will probably result in undissolved kalk particles suspending in the water. You'll want to avoid topping off your tank during this period where kalk is suspended like that. So, you'll shut down your ATO during the stir and for some time after (maybe an hour or two?) There are a couple of things that you may want to consider, though, as you work through this. 1) The amount of kalkwasser that you're dosing will match evaporation and will, therefore, be somewhat variable through the year (depending upon ambient temperature and humidity, for example). This means that your dosing will be variable. And any supplementary dosing system (e.g. two part or a calcium reactor) would be used to tune out the difference over time and through the seasons. If you can tolerate that, then it'll work. This is normally how I approach dosing. If you want more control and deliver precise amounts of alkalinity, then you should dose a calibrated amount every day from a second container and let a separate fresh water ATO make up the difference due to evaporation. This is how Bruce (bbyatv) controls his kalk delivery. 2) I believe in multiple levels of protection when it comes to kalkwasser delivery. This includes limiting how much kalk is in a reactor or reservoir, limiting the speed of delivery, and limiting the size of the reservoir. I don't believe in the infallibility of equipment. In your case, you'd need to consider a failure mode where your LM3 failed in the ON state, or your ATO control failed, and this resulted in your LM3 delivering kalkwasser to your tank continuously. What protections do you have against that? What would happen if you dosed 50 gallons of kalkwasser ATO to your tank? How long would it take for you to notice the problem? Would you be notified of some problem? How long would it take to be notified? Would the dosing be slow enough that you'd have a reasonable time to react after being notified of the problem and where the amount dosed would be limited? All things to consider. If dosing is fast, then having a limited reservoir for kalkwasser is a good idea. BTW, these are considerations that are worth thinking about even for our ATO systems to protect ourselves from a salinity crash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni November 16, 2017 Author Share November 16, 2017 Tom, Thanks for the input. The LM3 does 1500 (or some other high amount) of small on/off additions throughout the day to split the dose, which is set manually. In addition, I've got a high level sensor that shuts off the unit. It's been pretty reliable in the past 7 years but as always, there's a risk. Ideally I'd probably have a second high level sensor independent of the litermeter and may consider that tied to my apex. I've also got email alerts from my apex (though need to set that up again since the move) for elevated pH. In terms of stirring and then waiting, that would be harder to coordinate. I've dosed kalk slurry before and not had a problem due to how slowly the LM3 doses. My understanding is that you lose some of the hard metal precipitating prospects of kalk but that there isn't any other big issue with dosing a little slurry. Have your experiences been different? I think bruce's method is better then what I've got proposed. My problem is space under the tank (or lack thereof) as well as having everything else in the basement (and not being able to redrill into the ceiling...if I want to stay happily married). My thought is to let the kalk fluctuate over time and then adjust my second form of calcium supplementation by dosing calcium reactor effluent through a peristaltic pump and checking alkalinity regularly...or taking the plunge and getting a kH monitoring and control system (damastaco reactor). thanks as always for your considered and detailed input. it's greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami November 16, 2017 Share November 16, 2017 Dosing slurry is fine as long as you do it in limited doses and into a high-flow area. It can cause a pH spike but that typically subsides quickly. The problem with dosing solids is that you can't really account for the dosage because you don't know the density of the solids and, therefore, don't have control over how much alkalinity you're dosing (remember, those solids will dissolve once they get into the larger water volume of your tank). Saturated kalkwasser (without suspended solids) should have 40.8 meq/liter of alkalinity (a little over 114 dKH) at 25 degrees C. But, if there are suspended particles of calcium hydroxide in it, there's more. Fewer suspended particles and you're closer to the standard. More suspended particles and you're dosing more alkalinity than you're expecting. That's why kalk stirrers are designed the way they are: The kalk sits at the bottom where it's stirred gently, but the kalkwasser is taken from the top (just below the surface, to be more accurate) to minimize risk of dosing suspended particles. I've never owned the LM3 so I had to download and scan the manual. I see the difficulty you're facing: It does 150 microdoses per day in three 192-second windows for every microdose, making the dose interval 9.6 minutes. That's not much time for any stirred up kalk to settle. But, I do see that (on page 6) the LM3 should be able to pull water through as much as 30 feet of height or push it up 60 feet. If you have room under your stand to put the kalk stirrer, you should be able to leave a freshwater reservoir in the basement and have the stirrer upstairs. Is that an option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni November 17, 2017 Author Share November 17, 2017 Dosing slurry is fine as long as you do it in limited doses and into a high-flow area. It can cause a pH spike but that typically subsides quickly. The problem with dosing solids is that you can't really account for the dosage because you don't know the density of the solids and, therefore, don't have control over how much alkalinity you're dosing (remember, those solids will dissolve once they get into the larger water volume of your tank). Saturated kalkwasser (without suspended solids) should have 40.8 meq/liter of alkalinity (a little over 114 dKH) at 25 degrees C. But, if there are suspended particles of calcium hydroxide in it, there's more. Fewer suspended particles and you're closer to the standard. More suspended particles and you're dosing more alkalinity than you're expecting. That's why kalk stirrers are designed the way they are: The kalk sits at the bottom where it's stirred gently, but the kalkwasser is taken from the top (just below the surface, to be more accurate) to minimize risk of dosing suspended particles. I've never owned the LM3 so I had to download and scan the manual. I see the difficulty you're facing: It does 150 microdoses per day in three 192-second windows for every microdose, making the dose interval 9.6 minutes. That's not much time for any stirred up kalk to settle. But, I do see that (on page 6) the LM3 should be able to pull water through as much as 30 feet of height or push it up 60 feet. If you have room under your stand to put the kalk stirrer, you should be able to leave a freshwater reservoir in the basement and have the stirrer upstairs. Is that an option? Very good points. Unfortunately, there is zero space under the tank and by the tank does not meet wife's standards. I think the strategy of having a powerhead turn on daily for a short period of time and then divided doses should work. Ultimately, it won't be exact but it will be consistent. The bigger issue is the evaporation rate fluctuating. I think for now I'll see how much that fluctuation is via charting alkalinity regularly and then figure out what I need to do to offset via other means. Since my tank isn't mature, for now I think kalk will be more then then enough to meet all needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Lazar November 17, 2017 Share November 17, 2017 Roni, what about using two reservoirs in the basement? Your RO/DI could fill the first reservoir through your barrel tender, and you would add the kalk powder to it to create your kalkwasser. This reservoir would have a pump controlled by your Apex to stir it a few times a day. In between stirrings you would have a different pump move the kalk effluent into the second reservoir. The second reservoir would hold the powder-free kalkwasser and would have an LM3. The LM3 would pull kalkwasser multiple times throughout the day and provide it to your DT. This would isolate all the powder in the first reservoir, and do all your topoff from the second reservoir. It's more complicated, but it meets your requirement of no additional equipment in the stand and evens out the alkalinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami November 18, 2017 Share November 18, 2017 Roni, what about using two reservoirs in the basement? Your RO/DI could fill the first reservoir through your barrel tender, and you would add the kalk powder to it to create your kalkwasser. This reservoir would have a pump controlled by your Apex to stir it a few times a day. In between stirrings you would have a different pump move the kalk effluent into the second reservoir. The second reservoir would hold the powder-free kalkwasser and would have an LM3. The LM3 would pull kalkwasser multiple times throughout the day and provide it to your DT. This would isolate all the powder in the first reservoir, and do all your topoff from the second reservoir. It's more complicated, but it meets your requirement of no additional equipment in the stand and evens out the alkalinity. Great engineering, Jon! The second reservoir wouldn't even need to be that large. Maybe a 5 gallon bucket for a system with 5 gallons or less of evaporation. However, depending upon the way it was placed, it might need either a level sensor or an overflow to run any extra effluent back into the first reservoir. In that (second) case, you'd want to ensure that you were always topping off the second reservoir with an amount of kalkwasser that ensured it would always overflow after a daily recharge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni November 18, 2017 Author Share November 18, 2017 Great thoughts and exactly how I'd engineered it initially good to know that I'm in good company. My current setup was 55 gallon drum filled by ro/di with barrel tender, which was going to just have ro/di. This would then be pumped to a 10 gallon reef synergy topoff container, which would have kalk measured out and also be dosed from the LM3. The problem, in my mind, is that this added an extra pump and possible failure point for a benefit that I'm not 100% sure I need. I do think the way that Jon and you recommended would allow me more control but as a distracted/lazy reefer, I'm not sure that I'm ever going to be that exact in my reefkeeping (which is probably why my tanks never look as good as Jon's...or yours Tom, though you never post any pictures The other problem is that since my move, I can't find my other LM3s. I had 3 total, two of which were usually in use and one backup and I have a full setup for water exchange and top off (lm3, water exchange module and remote pump modules) but can't find my other pumps. I think once I dig up my other LM3, I might just setup like Jon said. I've got an extra high level sensor that I can hook up in the top off container. The biggest benefit would be being able to know the amount of calcium/alk I'm adding to the system to a much higher degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni November 26, 2017 Author Share November 26, 2017 Some quick pics. My corals are finally back in my tank (thanks Jon and Maureen for holding). Please pardon quality (cell phone shots) and algae ( cleanup crew still being buffed up) Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime November 27, 2017 Share November 27, 2017 Looking good. When did you get water in here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni November 28, 2017 Author Share November 28, 2017 thanks, about a month ago. rock and most of the coral is from my old tank. working through some pests (a little aiptasia, a little hair and filamentous algae and some cyano but otherwise everything is doing well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpitzer November 28, 2017 Share November 28, 2017 What are the orange zoas in the 4th picture called? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni November 28, 2017 Author Share November 28, 2017 I think those are armor of gods. They are more pink in person. Don't quote me though as I'm notoriously bad at iding them. Also pulled my filter socks. I hated changing them in my old tank and with the decreased bioload, I'm leaning towards a more natural system with less mechanical filtration. I may use that first compartment for a cryptic fuge...or regular chaeto fuge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YHSublime November 28, 2017 Share November 28, 2017 Ah, yeah, I was able to put a bunch of LR in with my new rock, and sand from other established tanks. Wanted to sweeten up the bio. I'm nervous enough with the zoanthids switching over, let alone SPS. Got a fish list yet? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni November 28, 2017 Author Share November 28, 2017 i should have waited for the sps but was in boston and visited a friend, who has some incredible frags. hard to leave empty handed. we'll see how it goes. No fish right now but a few coming tomorrow from diver's den. Final list will be convict tang flame hawk pair of percula clowns tailspot blenny pair of randall's gobies with shrimp cleaner wrasse P. fridmani starki damsel keeping it with a very low bioload (for me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Lazar November 29, 2017 Share November 29, 2017 Looks great Roni, and I'm eager to see what Diver's Den is bringing you. Looks like the Boston transplants are settling in just fine. You know you're due for another FTS soon.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni November 30, 2017 Author Share November 30, 2017 Looks great Roni, and I'm eager to see what Diver's Den is bringing you. Looks like the Boston transplants are settling in just fine. You know you're due for another FTS soon.... Too much nuisance algae right now for more pics...plus i'm a terrible photographer. Maybe you can take some pics next time you're over bad news: shipment got held for an entire day and fish spent 2 days in the bag. we'll see how everything does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Lazar December 2, 2017 Share December 2, 2017 Maybe you can take some pics next time you're over Happy to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni February 11, 2018 Author Share February 11, 2018 Happy to!Not @Jon Lazar level pics but a few quick cell phone shots Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leishman February 11, 2018 Share February 11, 2018 nice whats the 1st pic in post #33. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni February 11, 2018 Author Share February 11, 2018 nice whats the 1st pic in post #33.Thanks, not sure. Just some random wild frag. I like it a lot though Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni March 7, 2018 Author Share March 7, 2018 First three are new additions... Fat head dendro and torch from @marco. Starki from divers den. Last pic is just a small frag that's starting to encrust Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Lazar March 7, 2018 Share March 7, 2018 Looking good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leishman March 7, 2018 Share March 7, 2018 Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni March 7, 2018 Author Share March 7, 2018 Thanks all. Definitely a work in progress. Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roni March 11, 2018 Author Share March 11, 2018 Just a few random quick pics. So good to have my clowns back home Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now