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Plumbing to utility room (need advice soon)


Anemone

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I've got only a few days to tell the plumber what to do, so this is urgent. We're having some work done and as long as the wall is opened I thought it'd be nice to run some plumbing from behind the tank stand to the basement utility room. I'm thinking of running a 2 1/2" or 3" PVC conduit that I would use to run flexible tubes for siphon, salt water, and makeup water. The thinking was that the PVC would let me pull through different tubing for whatever reason (leaks, clogs, or just tweaking stuff) or control wires for the basement pumps. More importantly, any leak would drain down to the utility room where there's a floor drain. To give a couple details, the conduit is going down one floor and across about 10 feet.

Any comments from anyone about this plan? If you've done this, any lessons learned? Did it work out how you hoped?

Thanks!

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What size tank? The first thing that comes to mind is water changes, if you could T off your drain, how nice would it be to just drain out "x" amount of water and pump FSW back in! Without relocating your sump downstairs, or having a water changing station downstairs that had a pump powerful enough to reach back up, the drain is the only thing I can think of that would be nice. Are you planning on staying in your home for a while? Before running tank plumbing, I would take into account what it will take to take it out or patch it up, might be more trouble than its worth.

 

Sorry if I misunderstood your question, but that's my train of thought...

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125 gallon tank.

Reading back I think I was too terse and didn't do a good job of explaining. At first I was thinking I would've have the plumber just run 3 flex tubing lines through to the basement, for siphon, refill, and top off. Then I started thinking about the possibility of leaks. Or what if I want to add a 4th line for some reason? Thinking through that, I vaguely remembered reading some time back a suggestion to run a fat PVC pipe as a *conduit* with smaller fill, drain, and ATO tubes inside. That way if you want to replace one of the three tubes, you just pull it out and pull something else through. Also, any leaks would run down the PVC and drip into the basement, instead of inside the walls.

So, siphon and refill lines would be there, hooked to pumps as suggested.

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Interesting idea. You probably can't get into tying directly into the home's plumbing without invoking code compliance (traps, slope, vents, etc.). Unless you've got a really thick (2x6) wall, or are going directly into the floor and across some larger joists, you probably won't be running a 2-1/2" PVC pipe through a 2x4 stud wall. I think that code allows you holes up to 60% in a non-load bearing wall (about 2.1 inches in a 3-1/2 stud wall) and that would limit you to the OD of 1-1/2" PVC pipe (which is just under 2 inches across). 

 

Is the plumber going to go directly down through the wall's baseplate and into the floor, then across through the floor joists?

 

One suggestion might be for the plumber to use sweeping elbows typically instead of regular 90's which have a tighter turn. The sweeping ell will make it so that you're less likely to kink your flexible tubing in the pipe.

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Thanks for the thought Origami. Sweeping elbows look good.

I hadn't thought about the code issues much. Let's see, there may be a way down without crossing any framing studs. Behind the wall there is a dead space under the stairs where we could get to. It'll be closed off when we're done, so no reason not to drill through the floor, eh? Or straight down through the base plate might work (luckily the joists go the right direction once we are through the floor so we can run between them all the way to the utility room). The PVC isn't going to connect to the home plumbing so hopefully no other issues with code. It is just a path to the basement.

I wish I could find where I had read about this before. Searching Google for "aquarium PVC plumbing" obviously finds a lot of unrelated topics, I'm not sure how to narrow it down.

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If you go down through the baseplate, you can use almost all of the 3-1/2 cavity space. You probably couldn't reasonably go to 3" PVC because there might not be enough room for the collar on an elbow to turn to go through the wall, but a 2-1/2" pipe would work fine.  The OD on a 2-1/2" Schedule 40 PVC pipe is 2-7/8". You could even run this through the joists if you needed to, but it'll cost you more because the plumber will have to drill a bunch of holes. 

 

In the past, I've run antenna wiring down from an attic to our basement (in our old home) using an unused vertical pipe that the builders installed for a future sub-slab ventilation (radon) system. You're using the same principle for your application. That system ran DVW top-to-bottom between four levels (attic, 2nd floor, 1st floor, basement).

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Thanks Origami! It sounds like this might actually work out. I'm trying to get together with the plumber tomorrow or over the weekend; hopefully he doesn't rain on the parade.

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If you're not tying into house plumbing you not have to worry about code...I'd check with the plumber. Anyways, I have a laundry room drain that is butting up against drywall on each side in one wall....this was done by the builder in VA...but be aware that caused problems as it was all to easy to put a nail through it and is the reason I even am aware of the drain.

 

Keep in mind the friction of tube on tube...you may have to think about how you snake tubes if you don't do them all at once. Not saying that's a deal breaker, just saying you may want to think about if incremental steps create more work.

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Good points Matt. I'll have to be really aware of where the pipe run is. That's actually one of the reasons for the PVC, at least that gives a little protection for the aquarium tubing inside, instead of bare tubing in the walls.

Friction could be a problem too, especially if there have to be a couple extra bends along the way. Maybe I'll have to pull out all the tubes any time I want to change just one. Pain in the neck, but liveable since it should be rare. Might be a good idea to check out how they look occasionally anyway.

Other caveats or suggestions from anyone? Keep them coming, this is the best time.

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 I have a laundry room drain that is butting up against drywall on each side in one wall....this was done by the builder in VA...but be aware that caused problems as it was all to easy to put a nail through it and is the reason I even am aware of the drain.

 

Ah, that reminds me of the time that my wife drilled a 1/4" hole dead center into a pressurized cold water pipe in the wall.... What excitement she had that day.

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Any other tips or pitfalls from anyone about running plumbing through the walls and down to the basement? Final plans will be set on Saturday morning.

Should I run my CO2 from the basement as well? For a 25 foot run maybe special CO2 tubing would be needed. (I seem to remember reading that normal air line tubing is a little bit CO2 permeable).

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I think running a big pipe as conduit for tubing to be pulled later may not work out as planned.  Between size, turns and friction, you may not get as much utility out of this idea as hoped.  You will definitely not get the most effective use of the space made between the studs/baseplate.  Look at all the wasted space in this concept diagram,

 

Maybe a better idea that will provide numerous more options is to create a few small access panels.  One behind your tank and one downstairs in the under the tank.   Maybe another one somewhere else.  Here is one example. And here is another for the ceiling.  They sell pre-fab spring loaded panel as Home Depot that you just put into a dry wall hole and takes 2 minutes to install.  You can paint it to match.

 

Basically I'm suggesting you use access panels to keep the studs and area of interest open for the future.  You can drill holes in studs and base plates later and you can have straight shots between the joints to where you want also.  Then whether is one or multiple 1/2" pipes or 1" pipes, drill the appropriate hole(s) then.  You will have much more flexibility for whatever you decide to do down the road.

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Thanks DaveS. I couldn't get the first link to work, is there any way you can repost? I'm having a hard time figuring out the issue about in wall space without seeing it. You've got me worried though.

 

Friction is definitely another worry. I'm waiting to hear how many turns there will be in the run. Based on the layout of the house I'm guessing we will have either 1 bend or 3 bends (not counting the start and end). It should be possible to use "sweeper" bends internally for gentler turns. Let's say it winds up being 3. The regular (polypropylene?) tubing is pretty tacky and might refuse to pull through. Is there perhaps a lower friction tubing option that might salvage the plan? How about spa flex, or PEX? Besides being less tacky, they have some stiffness that might let us push as well as pulling. Or if I wet down the polypropylene, might it slip through more easily?

 

Keep the thoughts coming. I'd like this to work out but don't want to waste the effort and money on an unworkable idea.

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Here is another example of what I was trying to describe.  Note all the wasted space and that is in a perfect world. 

 

In reality with twisting, friction and other things, I doubt you will be able to pack things that tightly.  So you may end up cutting big holes to install 2" conduit but only able to get 1 1" tube through it.

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You really only need one "hose" inside the larger PVC pipe/sleeve.  Just use the same hose for all your functions by changing which way you move the water (up vs down).  Add a second hose for backup or convenience if you like.

 

Electricians use a wire lubricant for long cable pulls through conduit.  I would read the label, but I expect this could be used to help you pull PEX or maybe even vinyl tubing through a PVC sleeve.

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DaveS, thanks for the pictures. I see what you meant. I'll have to see what is the diameter of the PVC that will fit and make sure my tubing fits. I could get by with a 1 inch and a 3/4 inch for the saltwater fill and the siphon, and then the top off water tube will take whatever room is left.

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Jon, good point about sharing lines. Could do siphon and fill with a single line! RO/DI should probably be separate but it can be much smaller diameter.

I found some threads about keeping a remote sump in the basement or garage, which needs much higher flow. For water changes the flow rate could be pretty modest and still be a big convenience.

Good thought about lubricants too. Thanks!

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Thanks for the advice everyone. I wanted to let you all know that the PVC conduit installation is going to go forward.  The lucky thing is that there is enough room to use a 3" or 4" pipe.  As Origami mentioned, in a normal wall there just is not enough room for PVC that big, and as DaveS illustrated, smaller pipes might not hold as many tubes as you would hope for.  But in this case we are going through the wall into unused space under the stairs and that gives enough room for the PVC fittings to make the first turn.  From there it is possible to run to the utility room without drilling through any joists or supports.  We figured out a way to get over the beams and past the HVAC without drilling through anything and without making a lot of turns.  A little drywall work will be needed to box off some open space that is high up over the bottom of the basement stairs, but it is out of the way and should be unobtrusive.  The basement end comes down into the utility room and will just be open in the rafters pointed straight down, so I can string the tubes along the ceiling to wherever they need to go (one in the utility sink, one in the saltwater mixing bucket, and one over to the RO/DI).  Plus the output it is close to the floor drain so any leaks should be reasonably contained.

 

To test for possible friction problems, I was able to grab some 3" PVC out of the plumber's bin and build a mock-up. There is one sharp 90 degree bend just where we break through the wall behind the tank, and another gentle turn done with two 45 degree elbows (about the same turn radius as the sweeping elbows).  I borrowed the soft (nylon? polypropylene?) tube off my trusty Python water changer and was able to push it all the way through from the top end (even without running some string to pull it through with).  In real use there would also be a string or wire used to pull the leading end of the tube cluster through, and a helper to push in from the top end and feed the tubing in through the sharp turn.  So I think it should work out well.

 

Because of the big diameter there is plenty of room for the tubes I was wanting to run (one for siphon, one for salt water full, and one for RO/DI top off water).  There's probably going to be room for a couple more tubes as well (maybe CO2? suggestions welcome).

 

The top end of the PVC is going to butt into the back of a 2-gang electrical panel, which we'll cut the back off of so that the tubes will just pull out into the sump.  That way it is very easy to keep this covered and nice looking before the tank is installed, or if we ever move it or take it down.  The access hole will be about 2 feet off the ground which I think is a reasonably accessible height with the refugium in there.  To be under the stairs that is as high as we can connect it.

 

I'm very excited about this and wanted to share with my fellow enthusiasts (my wife for some reason is not as excited, though she is glad to see fewer hoses and maybe have fewer spills).

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