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Pairing Maroon Clowns? any advice?


DuffyGeos

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Looking for a little advice:

 

First try:

 

I put the new Female (assuming female, a lot larger then the one I have from the same clutch I believe) Lightning Maroon Clown (FLMC) in the tank with the MLMC and everything looked good for the first 40 min. I decided to watch them for a while since they were not $3.00 guppies. I am glad I did. The MLMC looked like he submitted to the female, twitched sideways and was always behind her sideways. Then all of the sudden they started facing each other and going around in circles trying to bite each other. I broke in up 3 times and scared the new FLMC to the opposite side of the tank. The next encounter they got into the biting at each other again and this time the MLMC latched onto the FLMC's pectoral fin and I broke it up again. Now the new FLMC is in time out in a partitioned park of the sump.

 

2 night later:

 

Tried the reintroduction of the FLMC last night in the frag tank and it did not go good again. In 3 min they were mouth to mouth, going around in circles trying to bite each other as she attacked him....so back to the sump!

 

So now what? how long do I wait to try again? Should I introduce a Nem.? 

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You could try to move the male you to the sump or another tank for a few days and then try to put him back in. I also found with most every fish if they are overfed the aggression usually goes away. Not saying they aren't fed enough but the more you feed the less likely any fish will have aggressive behavior. Good luck with them!

Edited by camelcruiser
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You could try to move the male you to the sump or another tank for a few days and then try to put him back in. I also found with most every fish if they are overfed the aggression usually goes away. Not saying they aren't fed enough but the more you feed the less likely any fish will have aggressive behavior. Good luck with them!

 

The male is in the tank I want them in right now, the female (who is the aggressor) has been taken out and put in the sump for a few days.

 

I should also take the male out of the tank?

 

Do I then put the female in the tank and introduce the male?

 

I thought since she was the aggressor that the new fish to the tank is usually less aggressive since it is new territory and the existing tank inhabitants are more aggressive since they are defending their territory?

 

thanks

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It could be that there may not be enough size differential between the two fish.  I don't know any easy solutions.  You could go out and buy a big female ordinary maroon and put it with the male, then he would know his place.  You could also put a small juvenile with the female for a while.  Then you could underfeed the pair with the desirable male and heavily feed the pair with the desirable female, but that could take months and sounds a little crazy anyway.

 

Then again I could be completely wrong if you already have a significant size difference between the two.  I've seen pics of your lightning maroons but don't remember seeing them side by side.

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Taking out the male and keeping the female in the tank that you want them in might be a good idea. This way, the male won't feel as comfortable in his "domain" and be more willing to submit coming into her territory.

 

Also, I know it might be tough to watch, but how long do you let them go at it?  It seems like only a couple minutes.  Unless they're really doing damage to each other (instead of just sparring in a sense), maybe you should let them face off for a little longer and let them figure it out?  I know it's hard to watch, but I don't think a few bites will really injure them that much.  Just a thought.

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Ok I think I misread the first post. I would do what you are doing now. Was the flmc housed alone before you got her? If she was she might not be a female and just a larger male. They usually do not change sex until they are paired up so there is a chance that the fish are trying to figure out which will be the female. You could also try the larger one in an acclimation box inside of the tank for a few weeks so they get used to being around each other.

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She was housed with a male morse code maroon clown for well over a month. I do agree with PK3. They are going to spar and establish dominance. THe fact that in a tank the size you are keeping them in, that they are still going at it probably means noone has won yet. I would worry when you see one hiding in a corner and the other go out of its way to chase and really beat on the other. We are talking about maroon clowns, they can take, and give, one H-E-double hockey sticks of a beating...

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She did beat on the morse code for several days, even took a little bit off one of his pectoral fins before she finaly let him exist in her domain.

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THe problem you may also have is that the male is defending "his" territory from a new fish. THe female is pissed that a male is pushing her around. So the best thing might be to move them both to a new area, can even be your sump, at the same time so they are both on neutral territory.

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It could be that there may not be enough size differential between the two fish.  I don't know any easy solutions.  You could go out and buy a big female ordinary maroon and put it with the male, then he would know his place.  You could also put a small juvenile with the female for a while.  Then you could underfeed the pair with the desirable male and heavily feed the pair with the desirable female, but that could take months and sounds a little crazy anyway.

 

Then again I could be completely wrong if you already have a significant size difference between the two.  I've seen pics of your lightning maroons but don't remember seeing them side by side.

 

 

Taking out the male and keeping the female in the tank that you want them in might be a good idea. This way, the male won't feel as comfortable in his "domain" and be more willing to submit coming into her territory.

 

Also, I know it might be tough to watch, but how long do you let them go at it?  It seems like only a couple minutes.  Unless they're really doing damage to each other (instead of just sparring in a sense), maybe you should let them face off for a little longer and let them figure it out?  I know it's hard to watch, but I don't think a few bites will really injure them that much.  Just a thought.

 

 

Ok I think I misread the first post. I would do what you are doing now. Was the flmc housed alone before you got her? If she was she might not be a female and just a larger male. They usually do not change sex until they are paired up so there is a chance that the fish are trying to figure out which will be the female. You could also try the larger one in an acclimation box inside of the tank for a few weeks so they get used to being around each other.

 

 

She was housed with a male morse code maroon clown for well over a month. I do agree with PK3. They are going to spar and establish dominance. THe fact that in a tank the size you are keeping them in, that they are still going at it probably means noone has won yet. I would worry when you see one hiding in a corner and the other go out of its way to chase and really beat on the other. We are talking about maroon clowns, they can take, and give, one H-E-double hockey sticks of a beating...

 

 

Thank you everyone. Maybe I am just not letting them figure it out. Yea, I really don't like watching them look like they are going to tear each others jaw off. The one time the male latched on to her pectoral fin and rode it for about 4 circles as they went around till I broke it up.  I think I will look for an acclimation box, since I will need one anyway for my tank. Then leave her in it for a week or so, then try it again. If that does not work I will put him in the box. She is definitely larger then he is.

 

Thanks for all the suggestions.

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THe problem you may also have is that the male is defending "his" territory from a new fish. THe female is pissed that a male is pushing her around. So the best thing might be to move them both to a new area, can even be your sump, at the same time so they are both on neutral territory.

 

If none of the above works I will try this.  Thanks

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Considering she is definitely larger than he is, I would try changing up the rockwork just a little, leave her in there and put the male in another tank for about a week. Then introduce the male again and let them have at it. I would guess that the male would get a little butt kicking then submit.

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Duffy,

 

When I have hard fish to pair together I place them in a small area like a breeder box and split it down the middle with a clear partition like plastic mesh or clear acrylic. I leave them like this for a week or two and then try play dates etc and I've had 99% success with this method.

 

Maroons can kill each other quick so don't let them beat each up to badly.

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Duffy,

 

When I have hard fish to pair together I place them in a small area like a breeder box and split it down the middle with a clear partition like plastic mesh or clear acrylic. I leave them like this for a week or two and then try play dates etc and I've had 99% success with this method.

 

Maroons can kill each other quick so don't let them beat each up to badly.

 

Thanks again, sound like this is a good way to go. Time to get a breeder box.

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Considering she is definitely larger than he is, I would try changing up the rockwork just a little, leave her in there and put the male in another tank for about a week. Then introduce the male again and let them have at it. I would guess that the male would get a little butt kicking then submit.

I would suggest taking both fish out and reworking your rock work as well then reintroducing both fish to the new environment.

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I would suggest taking both fish out and reworking your rock work as well then reintroducing both fish to the new environment.

 

Male is in the frag tank, along with a male Anthias, nothing but 2 4" PVC pipes right now. Female is in the sump of the same system. No rock work.

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Below is something I had typed up in an old thread. It might have some useful info for you.

 

 

I think it is wise to understand the maturing, pairing process, and submissive behaviors of clowns to prevent or properly identify a bad situation. Below is probably more information then what most need but here it is anyways.

Sex changes
1. Clownfish are protandrous hermaphrodites. They are hatched as sexually immature fish. Based on signals from their environment and being physically mature after 12-24 months they will either remain sexually immature, change into a male or change into a male then female. This is a one way trip, sexless to male never to be sexless again and male to female never to be male again.

2. A clownfish kept by its self will become a female in a short period of time if it is physically mature, in as little as a month.

3. Two female clowns will fight. The tell tale sign that you have two females is fighting ending in the two locking their mouths together. We are not talking about the normal love bites and taps here.

Pairing techniques
There are a couple of proven techniques to pair same species of clownfish.

1. Grow out technique:
With this technique two small juvenile clownfish are purchased at the same time and introduced into the tank at the same time. The fish will establish a dominate submissive relationship as they mature and eventually form a pair bond. This technique works the vast majority of the time.

Notes: Since the fish are going to fight and/or chase each other to establish who is the dominate fish and who is the submissive fish, it will often speed the pairing process and reduce fighting and potential damage to the fish by getting one of the two juveniles larger than the other. The smaller will quickly give up to the larger one. This technique should not be applied to Premnas species (maroon) clownfish as they are aggressive and will still fight.

2. Add a new clownfish to an existing clownfish technique:
With having an existing clownfish in your tank adding a new clownfish to form a pair can be a little harder or in other words more dangerous to the new fish. The technique is basically the same as the grow out technique. You will want to find a small juvenile clownfish and add it to the tank with the existing fish. By getting a small juvenile fish you are not risking possible sex compatibility problems, i.e. two females.

Example: Existing A. Ocellaris clownfish that has been in the tank by it's self for over a year. We can assume this fish is a female based on size, age and environment. A 3/4" to 1-1/2" juvenile from a community tank is added to the tank. The vast majority of the time the new fish will submit to the existing fish with little or no fighting at all. This technique should not be applied to Premnas species (maroon) clownfish as they are aggressive and will still fight.

3. Pairing Premnas species clownfish (maroon clownfish):
Pairing maroon clowns is much more problematic than pairing Amphiprion species clownfish. Maroons are notorious for being very aggressive towards other clownfish. They are pretty much fearless and will only back down from an all out fight when presented with the overwhelming threat of death.

Separation Technique:
The only technique I am aware of that works the vast majority of the time with the least amount of damage as possible is to use a separation and slow acclimation process to introduce a potential mate to a maroon clownfish.

First you need to have a large female already established in your tank before trying a pairing. The clownfish should be at least 3" from nose to start of the cardinal fin. Next you will need to do a little preparation before buying a potential mate for your maroon. You need something to securely separate the two fish in the same tank while still allowing the fish to see each other and the new fish to get water flow. You can use a clear plastic specimen container with holes drilled in it for example.

Now go to the LFS and find the smallest juvenile maroon from a community tank that you can find. It should be no larger than 1" from nose to start of cardinal fin. Acclimate the new maroon just as you would any other fish. Once the new maroon is acclimated to your tanks water, place the new maroon in the specimen container. Let the two fish see each other, place the specimen container near the females territory. Carefully watch the female's behavior. If she is trying to attack the new fish through the container, it is not safe to release the new maroon. Give her time to cool off from the disruption to her tank and addition of a foreign clownfish in her tank.

Now that the female has cooled her temper it is time to try an introduction. Get your favorite fish net ready and release the new maroon to the tank. If the fighting gets too bad you will need to rescue the new maroon and place it back in the container and try the next day. If after three failed attempts you can write off the new maroon as incompatible and you will need a new juvenile to try with.

Understanding submissive behavior in clownfish:
As a part of pairing you need to know what submissive behavior is. You will know that you are well on your way to a successful pairing when one fish submits to the other fish. This is especially important behavior to observe in maroon clownfish.

Amphiprion and Premnas species submissive behavior goes something like this. First the dominate fish will rush or otherwise attack the submissive fish. The submissive fish will turn sideways to the dominate fish and tilt its belly towards the dominate fish and quiver like an epileptic seizure. The female should recognize this behavior and stop the attack short of actual damage. Sometimes in new pairings and old well established pair bonds the dominate fish will move to a parallel position to the submissive and quiver back to the submissive fish.

In Maroon clowns there is an additional submissive behavior that is unique to maroons. When the submissive fish is rushed or otherwise attacked it/he will duck the attack, slip to the side of the female and tenderly kiss her cheek spines and pectoral fins of his beloved female.

Signs that you have a pair bond in your clownfish:
There are a couple of signs that a pair bond has formed and is maturing in your clownfish in addition to submissive behavior. Typically mated pairs (pairs that have a pair bond) will sleep in the same area. They will also host in the same host or stay in the same territory if there is no natural host present. The two fish will stay close to each other the vast majority of the time.

The pair bond is a developing thing. It starts out as a general acceptance of each other. Then slowly develops into a closer relationship were both fish are together most of the time. There is a bickering phase too where the female will make sure the male knows who is the boss. During this time it is not uncommon to find the poor little dejected male cowering near their normal host/territory. But don't worry this is normal and the male will be accepted back sooner or later. The ultimate end of the pair bond is seen in a spawning event such as nest cleaning or laying of eggs.

Some information taken from "Clownfishes" by Joyce Wilkerson. This is a great little book if you are thinking of raising clownfish.

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Coral Hind- Wow great info, thanks!

 

Was not really planning on breeding them, I was just wanting to have them live in the smae tank together without killing each other :laugh:

 

If down the road they are laying eggs nonstop and I have the time, I might reevaluate it, or see if someone else wants to try and raise some Lightning eggs on a tile.

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