matt's 90g - reef 3.0

[matt]

I picked up 120, sold it as it wasn't going to fit on our main floor. Then, we revamped our basement and another tank made sense again. I have a 46g SPS dominated tank on the main floor with sparse rockwork that will remain. The 46 was my second go in reefing...the first ended badly in a transition from a 10g to a 30g cube during 6 months and 3 changes in address.

 

Now, in my reef 3.0 I'll get to move some corals to a bigger tank, get some additional fish, and enjoy reefing on multiple levels... in my home and philosophically. Thank you to my wife for endulging my reefing hobby, I'll try not to start planning a 180 for a couple more years.

 

SO...the NEW TANK details:

Marineland 90g reef ready with screen tops and factory stand (wamas pickup)

Eshopps R-200 (wamas pickup)

Avast ATO (wamas pickup)

AC3 controller (wamas pickup)

Reef Octopus Classic 150 (new, through wamas sponsor - Premium Aquatics)

ATI Sunpower 6x54w (new, from PA again)

Reef Brite 48" Tech blue (new, from PA again)

2 x BRS dosers

Eheim Compact 2000 return pump

 

...and I'm currently figuring out my display flow. My return pump is meant to roughly match my skimmer draw.... we'll see how that goes.

 

I'll have to get some pics up soon. I've got what I hope is most all my rock in some holding tubs...been keeping it alive and ready. I need to buy some sand and the right size hose (3/4") to connect my hard plumbing to my return pump. Then, I can finish my leak test, drain, and fill with saltwater. Getting so close now....

[YHSublime]

Nice. Funny how plans change, eh?

[matt]

Haha, I know that you know how that goes :-)

 

So here is a pic??? of what I've landed on...so looking forward to getting plumbing squared away so I can get rocks and sand going. I've got spare pumps sitting around for water circulation until I make some more lasting decisions.

 

(I won't bother to tell you how many different devices and attempts failed when trying to put this pic right into the thread, will try again later)

 

 

[matt]

 

[matt]

So I took the boys to Lowes with me yesterday and finally grabbed the right size tubing to connect the return pump up to the hard plumbing. Came home and let them nap while I tried to get it all going. In connecting the plumbing that wasn't attached I accidentally loosened the bulkhead on the return. Had to drain the overflow and work that out. Then, finally got the plumbing done and turned on the pump.....

 

Holy crap its a jacuzzi in my sump! Tons of bubbles in the skimmer section which means it's super loud!

 

The pump is nearly silent, but I'm gonna have to do something about the plumbing. I got this with plumbing included. I though it would work out well with less effort than drilling, but not so much. It's all schedule 80 and a ball valve was included and it's on the drain. I can use the ball valve to dial in a siphon but that doesn't hold up....things become unbalanced and I either start a drop in my return pump area or move back into the realm of noisy.

 

Can't really change the plumbing easily, there are unions glued below the bulkhead nuts under the tank. The only thing I think might work right now is to somehow cut down the return pipe inside the overflow and convert it to a primary drain (herbie style). Anyone have any advice on how to do that in place?

[wangspeed]

You could cut it with a low profile pipe cutter. The kind that you spin around and around until it cuts the PVC. Make sure you clean it very well before you stick it in the tank though. I'd also advise a strainer. If nothing else, it helps keep algae from growing inside the PVC due to blockage of light.

 

You're implying that your new return would go over the top though, right?

[Origami]

You could try some sort of bubble trap in your sump where the water enters. Here's one example of one:

 

 

Rob (Zygote2k) had some sort of bubble trap / silencer built into his tank at home when I visited once. Perhaps he'll chime in with the design of that solution, too. Either way, what you're trying to do is to restrict and direct the path of the bubbles (and to minimize the salt creep, if you can). Filter socks can help, too, if you want to go that route.

[matt]

You could cut it with a low profile pipe cutter. The kind that you spin around and around until it cuts the PVC. Make sure you clean it very well before you stick it in the tank though. I'd also advise a strainer. If nothing else, it helps keep algae from growing inside the PVC due to blockage of light.

 

You're implying that your new return would go over the top though, right?

 

Thanks, I may try that if I can find one...I know those work on copper house pipe, but I've not seen one before for PVC. And yes, going to go over the back with the return instead of drilling in this instance. Allows me to keep the warranty. Thanks for your help with this....trying to learn from your experience since its the same tank.

 

 

 

You could try some sort of bubble trap in your sump where the water enters. Here's one example of one:

 

 

Rob (Zygote2k) had some sort of bubble trap / silencer built into his tank at home when I visited once. Perhaps he'll chime in with the design of that solution, too. Either way, what you're trying to do is to restrict and direct the path of the bubbles (and to minimize the salt creep, if you can). Filter socks can help, too, if you want to go that route.

 

Thanks Tom, that's a pretty nifty design and doable on the cheap. I'm actually still leaning towards doing what it takes to install a herbie though. The bulkhead of the current return pipe was already a bit on the loose side....so if I can't cut the pipe in place I may just cut between the union and bulkhead underneath the tank for the return pipe - this would allow me to rebuild with a new primary drain more easily provided I have all parts on hand when I do it.

 

Also, I'm not sure how space is really left in the skimmer compartment for anything other than the 1" PVC pipes. I should post up some plumbing pics, but my skimmer is a RO Classic 150 with the pump off the side of the body.

[Origami]

You could also just replace the bulkhead, couldn't you? Or, if you needed to cut in close, you could use a one of those cable-cutters that look like a piece of thin steel cable between two handles. Pulling the cable back and forth generates enough heat to slip through PVC with relative ease. Not sure if this fits your needs.

[zygote2k]

Here's what I don't understand- you have dual overflows right? 2) drains and 2) returns. Why not plumb the 2 drains together and/or "t" them together, then direct them into a drain box? The box encapsulates the water so all noise and splashing is contained. Water flows out bottom of box into rest of sump eliminating most micro bubbles. Skimmer/reactor drains can be routed into the box too.

Use the returns as they were designed and put a check and gate valve on the properly sized return pump and you'll have silent overflows.

Keeps everything quiet, neat, clean, and efficient.

Edited November 4, 2014 by zygote2k

[wangspeed]

He's got a 90. Should just be a single overflow.

 

I wouldn't settle for anything less than full siphon. Quiet and efficient. After the initial slime buildup, it has been extremely stable.

[matt]

You could also just replace the bulkhead, couldn't you? Or, if you needed to cut in close, you could use a one of those cable-cutters that look like a piece of thin steel cable between two handles. Pulling the cable back and forth generates enough heat to slip through PVC with relative ease. Not sure if this fits your needs.

 

Kind of. The bulkhead is slip/slip and has pipe glued to the bulkhead on both sides...and on the bottom the pipe has a glued on union. The union won't fit through the hole in the glass, so I have to cut the pipe between the bulkhead and the union and then re-do the plumbing. I have the tool you mentioned, though it may be a but worn right now....that was a path I was going to explore. It's just hard to get at the pipes inside the overflow with something like that. I was thinking drill bit attachement, but maybe just pulling the the hole bulkhead and pipe is easier.

 

 

Here's what I don't understand- you have dual overflows right? 2) drains and 2) returns. Why not plumb the 2 drains together and/or "t" them together, then direct them into a drain box? The box encapsulates the water so all noise and splashing is contained. Water flows out bottom of box into rest of sump eliminating most micro bubbles. Skimmer/reactor drains can be routed into the box too.

Use the returns as they were designed and put a check and gate valve on the properly sized return pump and you'll have silent overflows.

Keeps everything quiet, neat, clean, and efficient.

 

No, I've only got one overflow and it has two holes....1 drain and 1 return. I've heard of this method and that the box works reasonably well, but if I have to do some work I'm thinking I should just replace the plumbing on that return and set it up as the primary herbie drain...seems to be the best solution to noise long term and I already have to do something. Besides, I already have a return pump. Thanks though Rob...this is an option I'm not eliminating wthout some thought.

 

He's got a 90. Should just be a single overflow.

 

I wouldn't settle for anything less than full siphon. Quiet and efficient. After the initial slime buildup, it has been extremely stable.

 

Correct, and yes....I'm leaning towards the herbie as I know how quiet a full siphon will be. What I'll have to figure out is what height to put the primary drain at so that I don't get noise from the siphon sucking air at start up (due to less height different in primary and emergency) or trickling sounds from having the primary overflow level too low either. My sump shouldn't have a problem handling a full drain of the overflow...so I'm thinking of using a slip bulkhead and then just playing with the height of the pipe iteratively (taller -> to smaller). Or, I could use a threaded bulkhead and attach a coupling/bushing and glue the pipe to the coupling/bushing after I find the right height. Thinking....

[zygote2k]

The funny thing about the herbie method is that it was invented because people didnt know how to properly set up a sump/return/overflow to eliminate noise/bubbles/salt creep. 

The existing conventional overflow system works great and does all of the above and keeps it all hidden from view. Usually the biggest drawback with these systems is that the drains are 1". If they were 1.5", they'd be ideal.

The drainbox works great and eliminates all saltcreep and allows other pipe exits to be routed to it as well.

By doing the herbie method with your tank and using the whole overflow box for drain, you now have to throw a hose or pipe out the back and over the top. You're now pumping water outside of the internal overflow box and outside of the tank. This raises the chance of errors or floods happening.

The even funnier thing is that for some reason, people are concerned with massive turnover through the overflow box when it's clearly not needed.  A 1" gravity drain will flow 960 gph- that's already 10x turnover. Why do you think you need more?

Flow rates http://flexpvc.com/WaterFlowBasedOnPipeSize.shtml

[matt]

Rob, I don't think I need more turnover...or even what the conerflow can handle. I went with the eheim compact 2000 as I felt that would produce turnover with the head involved that woukd approximate the skimmer draw. Can't quote numbers out if my head, but that was my goal as well as being affordable, quiet, and reliable with a decent track to support said reliability. When I set a siphon using the existing ball valve I'm dialing back the 1" pipe to 2/3 to 3/4 closed...that should give you an idea of current turnover. The problem is that it's just plain loud (biggest drawback for me now).. and of course would generate excess evap and salt creep.

 

Perhaps I should drop my skimmer in the sump again to reconfirm available space for a box, but it was already pretty tight. I appreciate your input, but my 46 is plumbed with an over the wall return and I've never had an issue with that. It's easier to deal with a leaking hose clamp than a leaking bulkhead imho....but you've surely cleaned up more of other people's mistakes than I have.

[wangspeed]

It doesn't matter too much if you cut the primary too low. I kept cutting mine lower because for the first few months it would change. Of course I would be out of town the very few times a year that I travel.

 

The only thing that you need to take into consideration if you cut it lower is that it will affect how much water drains into the sump when the return is off.

 

The height for the emergency should be a touch lower than your display's normal level. That way if it starts to trickle down the emergency it will still skim off the top. If it is too high, you'll get film on the top of the water.

 

 

--

Warren

Edited November 5, 2014 by wangspeed