nitrate think tank I'm at my wits end

[sen5241b]

I do not run a skimmer or a reactor of any kind and my trates stay at zero. How? Cheato and a small phosphate pad is all I use. They key to getting cheato to grow and therefore export trates is strong flow and strong light. I run a minimum of 250gph through my cheato and have 2 lights on it -two in case one burns out while I am away. One is a 25 watt CFL and the other is a 5100K CPL. I have to cut it back every 2 weeks. 

Also, make sure the water is forced through the cheato. Its easy to drop a ball of cheato in a large fuge and then watch the flow, for the most part, go round the cheato. Once, I let my bulbs get old and my cheato started to atrophy. So, I put 2 new bulbs and it grew like crazy. Strong light!

[sen5241b]

One other thing: are you over-stocked?

[jaddc]

Oh, I see what you mean -- for corrosion control.

 

During peak farming seasons, when farmers fertilize, the unintentional nitrates and phosphates in the Potomac jump to high concentrations.

[howaboutme]

So I just read through your build thread. looks like you started with fresh sand.  Do you have an updated FTS? 

 

Your tank is so packed I am concerned that there is no where near enough flow through the bottom third of the tank. That could lead to massive amounts of detritus under the rocks and in the sand bed.

 

I agree...But for a tank so tightly packed, I'm not sure there is ever enough flow to get through those tight spots. If you put a ph where it needs to be, it will be beating the heck out of any corals in that area too. These situations need manual removal, turkey basting the area and then siphoning it out. Adding more flow also doesn't guarantee the detritus will flow down the overflow either. I'd venture to say that a lot of detritus stays in our tanks leaving it up to us to clean out. Situations like this make you start to think less is more...

[jaddc]

I do not run a skimmer or a reactor of any kind and my trates stay at zero. How? Cheato and a small phosphate pad is all I use. They key to getting cheato to grow and therefore export trates is strong flow and strong light. I run a minimum of 250gph through my cheato and have 2 lights on it -two in case one burns out while I am away. One is a 25 watt CFL and the other is a 5100K CPL. I have to cut it back every 2 weeks. 

Also, make sure the water is forced through the cheato. Its easy to drop a ball of cheato in a large fuge and then watch the flow, for the most part, go round the cheato. Once, I let my bulbs get old and my cheato started to atrophy. So, I put 2 new bulbs and it grew like crazy. Strong light!

 

True points -- but you still need phosphate. The tank in question is phosphate starved.

[sen5241b]

True points -- but you still need phosphate. The tank in question is phosphate starved.

 

 

Its my understanding that corals only need phosphates in ppb which is a really tiny amount.

[jaddc]

I agree in principle with a build up of detritus and/or stocking levels as a contributor. 

 

But detritus and excess waste would raise nitrates and phosphates. Not just nitrates alone. I'd hazard to say that it is more common to have excess phosphate. But excess nitrate and low phosphate is the head scratcher for me.

[jaddc]

Its my understanding that corals only need phosphates in ppb which is a really tiny amount.

 

That is correct. Chaeto, other algae, and bacteria consume more phosphate then coral.

[Sharkey18]

I agree...But for a tank so tightly packed, I'm not sure there is ever enough flow to get through those tight spots. If you put a ph where it needs to be, it will be beating the heck out of any corals in that area too. These situations need manual removal, turkey basting the area and then siphoning it out. Adding more flow also doesn't guarantee the detritus will flow down the overflow either. I'd venture to say that a lot of detritus stays in our tanks leaving it up to us to clean out. Situations like this make you start to think less is more...

 

 

Exactly. I think the tank is too tightly packed, and while I love the look of the cave, It looks like a dead zone in terms of flow.  REALLY packed tanks like that usually have minimal rock and sometimes are even barebottom to make sure you can get flow through all of the coral. 

 

I can't imagine how you are siphoning the sand bed with all of the corals on it. 

 

And Issac just wants sps... I think this tank needs to get stuff off the sand bed, open the rock work a bit. If you want to leave the rock work intact that could work too if you remove the sand. Then you can put a power head along the bottom to create flow through the cave and around all the coral. 

[YHSublime]

I do not run a skimmer or a reactor of any kind and my trates stay at zero.

 

Your tank is also VERY different from Erics, he has more corals in his tank than most of our local vendors keep on hand.

 

Isaac is only saying that because he is interested in your corals and seeing what from yours he can pack into his overstuffed tank. 8)

And Isaac just wants sps...

 

Albeit true... how did I get dragged into this?!

[Sharkey18]

As soon as someone says coral hoader, we think of you Isaac.

 

 

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[pizzaguy]

The reason is my sps is browning out and dying. Taking sps out to have a dirty water tank is to easy. I enjoy my sps.

I'm gonna explore the flow option but they may entail removing lps. I do want to remove the sand so I'll get more aggressive with that now.

[pizzaguy]

I'm glad isaac has that title now and not me. I'm gonna start removing more sand tonight ultimately ending up with none. Then I'll figure a new baby gate for my monster lps haha

[pizzaguy]

But still there's no phosphates for some reason. Keep thinking guys and I greatly appreciate everyone's time on my think tank.

[jaddc]

So if it were my tank... I'd have to consider the Redfield ratio (which is just one of many, but the underlying principle is the same).

 

Thinking with my chemistry PhD hat, I'd go with Tom's suggestion and slowly add in some dipotassium phosphate. It is food safe and water soluble. Amazon has some for sale (http://www.amazon.com/Potassium-Phosphate-Dibasic-Grade-1000g/dp/B00CF28K2G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400181607&sr=8-1&keywords=potassium+phosphate) and for more info:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipotassium_phosphate 

 

I would make a 1 part per thousand solution. So that is 1 g of solid to 1 kg (1 liter) of water. If you are serious about doing this, I'll help you think about it.

 

While adding phosphate.. I'd be sure that my biopellets were perfect. Nice flow, no build up... etc. I'd also make sure that the chaeto is good to go. Optimal light and flow (like sen5241b wrote).

 

In theory, the phosphates will not increase and the nitrates will decrease. Once the system has balanced then phosphate dosing is stopped.

 

Then I'd to work to maintain low levels by increasing flow to remove detrital build ups, maybe remove corals that hate flow and the sand.

[AlanM]

Jeff sounds like he's ready to go!  It will be cool to see what works because you're right that more water changes are not the answer. 

 

It's just so weird that you never have phosphate but always have nitrate.  It's the flipside of the water chemistry of every SPS tank you read about.  No one has a problem with nitrate and lots of phosphate.  If you're chock full of detritus, as folks are suggesting, you should have piles of both, especially since you're not running GFO or growing cheato or really exporting anything that isn't coming out of the skimmer or your siphon hose at the moment.

 

Is it possible that some quirk of the microfauna in your tank has a huge population of phosphate-using bacteria, but a lack of nitrate using ones and the biopellets are somehow exacerbating that problem?  Maybe you shouldn't discard that sand, you should bottle it as magic phosphate reducing sand or something.

[jaddc]

Jeff sounds like he's ready to go!  It will be cool to see what works because you're right that more water changes are not the answer. 

 

It's just so weird that you never have phosphate but always have nitrate.  It's the flipside of the water chemistry of every SPS tank you read about.  No one has a problem with nitrate and lots of phosphate.  If you're chock full of detritus, as folks are suggesting, you should have piles of both, especially since you're not running GFO or growing cheato or really exporting anything that isn't coming out of the skimmer or your siphon hose at the moment.

 

Is it possible that some quirk of the microfauna in your tank has a huge population of phosphate-using bacteria, but a lack of nitrate using ones and the biopellets are somehow exacerbating that problem?  Maybe you shouldn't discard that sand, you should bottle it as magic phosphate reducing sand or something.

 

LOL 

 

The only thing I can think of is that there is a ton of bacteria growth and that growth is limited by phosphorous. But that would typically lead to lower levels of nitrate -- <10ppm. I have no idea where the excess nitrate came from so early in the tank's history.

 

My guess is that the slightest addition of phosphorous would like to a growth explosion -- so it would be best to harness it in the chaeto and biopellets.

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

I am with Tom and jaddc. Plus his suggestions are the easiest simplest, and safest options. I would start there before sand removal and such, I mean you have been cleaning it for a while right? If so I wouldn't think detritus is the main issue. But who knows, stay active on it and the work and time spent hopefully will pay off.

[pizzaguy]

Just a quick note until I have time to respond to everything later I haven't had any gfo or phosphate removal stuff on the tank in 6 months

[pizzaguy]

Jaddc yes any help will be greatly appreciated.

On the fuge chaeto growth I have some t5 freshwater plant bulbs. Will that work much better then the 20 K 150 watt halide I'm currently using?

I added a second sro xs160 skimmer to the tank last night because I believe my skimmer is undersized.

I do want to go bare bottom as much as possible so I can increase the flow so I'm gonna start removing slowly starting with tonight's 100 gallon water change.

I'm gonna order the phosphate powder tommorow so that will be on its way and please I'm no chemist so anyone who can tell me exactly how I should do this please do because without your help I won't even attempt it.

I have cut the feedings back to once a day and not so much frozen food.

[John Ford]

Starting with tonight's 100 gallon water change...

I'm so glad at times I only have a 75 gallon

[pizzaguy]

Vacuumed out some nice size sections of sand bed tonight. Changed about 75 gallons. The sand I took out was mostly in spots under ledges and back corners where flow is minimal. Moved a bunch of frag plug stuff to the tank in the garage. Trying to clean up sandbed to increase flow down low once all the sand is out. I'm not tearing the tank apart to get the sand under the rocks hopefully that doesn't bite me later down the road.

Edited May 16, 2014 by pizzaguy

[Origami]

Eric (or anybody for that matter), if you were ever running a phosphate adsorber like GFO and doing so aggressively, it can lead to a phosphate-limited state. Hallmarks of this are elevated and "stuck" nitrates and low phosphates. If, for example, you later (mistakenly) thought GFO lowered nitrates, the imbalance would be worsened. The lack of available phosphate would also explain your macroalgae failing to grow.

 

Hopefully you'll find the key to restoring the balance it takes to give back the enjoyment of this hobby for you.

 

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[pizzaguy]

Tom I did run gfo from the very first day. I'm not finding much info on dosing phosphates with the link jaddc added. I'm gonna order it and hopefully we can figure it out. Tom I read the link you posted then used the calculator at the bottom. It said change 81% of the water then massive dosing to get the Redfield ratio back on track. But doesn't say anything about what to use or how to do it.

[Origami]

Tom I did run gfo from the very first day. I'm not finding much info on dosing phosphates with the link jaddc added. I'm gonna order it and hopefully we can figure it out. Tom I read the link you posted then used the calculator at the bottom. It said change 81% of the water then massive dosing to get the Redfield ratio back on track. But doesn't say anything about what to use or how to do it.

Isn't there a calculator on the page that asks you to input your nitrate and phosphate numbers? It should tell you how much dry power to use to a certain volume of water, and then how much of this solution to dose the tank with.

 

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