Opinions on my water chemistry

[howaboutme]

I'd like to ask Wamas members your opinion of my current water parameters, the alk/ca/mg ones. Some background in case you don't know me, I rarely test and the only reason I tested recently is in anticipation of getting some new SPS pieces to go in my tank at the meeting after just having some "starter" SPS pieces do well. Basically, I was curious what my tank was doing numbers wise as opposed to visual. Visually, everything looks good and that's ultimately the bottom line. But! Even for me, the numbers surprised me. I am also a "don't mess with chemistry" person and like to just let your tank be and do regular water changes to adjust parameters. With that said.....

 

These numbers are based on a series of tests using Red Sea and verified by API. I'd like to verify w/ a Hanna for Alk also.

 

Alk: ~ 5 to 5.6 dkh

Ca: ~ 500 to 520

Mg: ~ 1500

 

All SPS pieces are doing well (except for the one's stung by the nem), most LPS are doing well but I'm getting rid of them. My little baby clam is doing well, opens up and closes when there is a shadow, etc. and has signs of growth along the mantle area. My new SPS frags seem to be okay so far and will hopefully adjust to my tank. It pains for me to say this but I am concerned about those numbers.

 

Based on this article:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

It seems like I am scenario 4 and the low alk, high ca is not that unusual. It states that to get numbers back in line, to just dose alk and ca will fall in line. I'm not sure I am ready to open that can of worms yet. My current course of action is to just observe. If all looks well, I will probably not worry about it and my tank may be a freak of nature. But if things don't go well, I am open to fixing the issue.

 

Has anyone dealt with the low alk, high ca scenario before?

What are your opinions of my current situation and your proposed path for the future?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Side note..my chalk bass jumped last night.. :(

Edited April 9, 2014 by howaboutme

[sachabballi reef]

I gotta be honest jack...you need to test those again with other kits to be sure and if true you need to adjust..that alk is way too low and calcium is high...in a mostly lps tank I wouldn't stress it as much but if you're going to get into sps your going to need to get it more in line and stable. Where is your ph? 

I use Salifert tests...

What are the dates on your tests since you don't use them often?

[sachabballi reef]

And sorry for your loss....such a bummer...no top?

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

Test you alk with a better test kit like saliferts. Kinda odd the alk would be so low and calcium real high, are you dosing calcium or anything else?

Bring the alk up slowly if it is that low.

[taiscici]

Jack, is the frag you got from me still doing well? My alk is around 10-11dkh so I will be surprise if it still doing well in that low alk. I would suggest to test again with other test kit before dosing and raising alk in your tank.

[zygote2k]

I'd say that your water is fine and regular w/c should work for a while until your corals grow and the demand for alk and ca outweigh the amounts being replenished by w/c.

[lnevo]

I was in a similar boat. After I hit the one year mark alk started dropping and WC was not keeping up. I did exactly what you proposed. Dosed alk slowly to get back to >7dkh calcium remained stable. Once i was testing and dosing consistently for a while I let the reefangel take over. Now I test once a week or so if i remember just to make sure things are still inline.

[howaboutme]

First, thanks to all the wamas night owls and early risers which guarantees receiving good comments first thing in the morning.

 

I gotta be honest jack...you need to test those again with other kits to be sure and if true you need to adjust..that alk is way too low and calcium is high...in a mostly lps tank I wouldn't stress it as much but if you're going to get into sps your going to need to get it more in line and stable. Where is your ph? 

I use Salifert tests...

What are the dates on your tests since you don't use them often?

 

Yep, I agree it's low, low enough for me to be concerned. Good question about the ph. Here is my ph graph for the past 30 days.

They huge drops I think are because of water changes so disregard those. As you can see, it's pretty steady with a low of around 7.75 ish and a high of around 8.2 ish...Maybe the low is low?

 

My test kits are all within the date of expiration by a good margin. I was doubting the red sea because I was testing an alk of 7 a month or so ago. But I find it hard to believe that all 3 (alk/ca/mg) are off. My api just confirmed those numbers within a save range though 1 time I did get alk at 7 dkh w/ the api. I agree, I need to verify w/ 1 more test kit.

 

And sorry for your loss....such a bummer...no top?

 

I have a top/egg crate but there are some larger openings...This guy is good, almost too good and has great aim.

 

Test you alk with a better test kit like saliferts. Kinda odd the alk would be so low and calcium real high, are you dosing calcium or anything else?
Bring the alk up slowly if it is that low.

 

I thought Red Sea was considered a "better test kit"? I will try salifert or get a hanna for alk and a salifert for ca/mg. I am not dosing anything.

 

Jack, is the frag you got from me still doing well? My alk is around 10-11dkh so I will be surprise if it still doing well in that low alk. I would suggest to test again with other test kit before dosing and raising alk in your tank.

 

The frag is fine. It kept it's color through transport and dip and still has a nice purple to it and has signs of PE. Yours and a few other sps frags are fine. All of this just makes it a bit more confusing so testing again is probably the right thing to do.

 

I'd say that your water is fine and regular w/c should work for a while until your corals grow and the demand for alk and ca outweigh the amounts being replenished by w/c.

 

I am in general agreement with your practices but I am open to suggestions.

 

I was in a similar boat. After I hit the one year mark alk started dropping and WC was not keeping up. I did exactly what you proposed. Dosed alk slowly to get back to >7dkh calcium remained stable. Once i was testing and dosing consistently for a while I let the reefangel take over. Now I test once a week or so if i remember just to make sure things are still inline.

 

What were your corals like? size? amount? at the 1 yr mark?

 

The thing is, although I am SPS dominant now, most are small. I do have that huge red monti and a pretty big slimer and pink or tubs birdsnest but that's it. Could those 3 and another handful or so of frags consume that much alk?

 

I was talking w/ Isaac on the side about it because I know he can generally keep things in line w/ water changes and has significantly more sps (both in number proportional to water volume and size). The big difference is that he does larger water changes every 2 weeks (> 20% if I remember) and I do only about 13% weekly.

 

I think my next steps are to verify the tests and then observe a bit more and don't do anything too drastic.

[jaddc]

My test kits are all within the date of expiration by a good margin. I was doubting the red sea because I was testing an alk of 7 a month or so ago. But I find it hard to believe that all 3 (alk/ca/mg) are off. My api just confirmed those numbers within a save range though 1 time I did get alk at 7 dkh w/ the api. I agree, I need to verify w/ 1 more test kit.

 

I think my next steps are to verify the tests and then observe a bit more and don't do anything too drastic.

 

Some thoughts.

 

1) All the test kits use similar chemistry. I would just stick to the kit that you feel comfortable with and make sure you treat it well. If you want to verify results, then bringing a water sample to a LFS is an easy way to do that and cheaper than buying another kit.

 

2) I always stress that you should be concerned with changes over time rather than an individual result. A low, but constant, Alk reading is not as bad as an erratic Alk level.

 

3) Since your ratio is a bit out of whack, then just deal with it by being vigilant with water changes -- like you are doing. Measure your levels before and after a WC to see if the WC has any effect. The problem with dosing when the situation is not ideal is that you can end up chasing your tail so to speak. If you raise alk, then Ca may drop. Then you raise Ca and your Alk drops and so on and so on. The water chemistry is a delicate dance with many factors. I see dosing as a maintenance when all is well and you want some cruise control, and not as a cure, but others may disagree.

 

4) You made an important point that everything in your tanks looks good. You should see a small but constant growth in your SPS (eg. white tips). If you see that, then you are doing fine. If your alk is low and your SPS is healthy but grows slower than average then so what? 

[Origami]

API makes a reasonable test kit. Sometimes it's off a little, but it's pretty good for the cost. I always keep at least one other kit (Hanna, Salifert, etc.) to cross-check or to calibrate the cheaper kit.

 

Your reported alk is low; calcium is on the high side; magnesium is high, but acceptable. I've seen some SPS start to have problems when alk gets too low. Your alk, if the measurement is reasonably accurate, has a lot of headroom to be increased if desired. Using a little baking soda could do this very easily. This reef chemistry calculator can help you figure out the dosage.

 

What salt mix are you using? Are you using conditioned tap water or RO/DI when mixing up your salt?

[Jason Rhoads]

I use API kits and have for years. I have not seen them to be unreliable indicators of consumption. With that said, I try to stay in a "moderate" range for my CA and DKH. I like 380 CA, and 8-9 DKH. Maybe this is why I have not had any corals melt due to using API test kits.

 

I agree with other posters here, use some baking soda and gradually increase your Alk. Once it is established where you/your corals like it, you can determine your rate of consumption and lock in your dosing schedule. Kalkwasser is an easy first step in supplementing CA and Alk. I would look at that with a drip doser. Shouldn't cost much, and you wont be able to do too much harm... well you can, but things have to go pretty wrong.   

[sen5241b]

I was in a similar boat. After I hit the one year mark alk started dropping and WC was not keeping up. I did exactly what you proposed. Dosed alk slowly to get back to >7dkh calcium remained stable. Once i was testing and dosing consistently for a while I let the reefangel take over. Now I test once a week or so if i remember just to make sure things are still inline.

 

1+ "... dose alk slowly ..."

[Origami]

Kalkwasser is an easy first step in supplementing CA and Alk. I would look at that with a drip doser. Shouldn't cost much, and you wont be able to do too much harm... well you can, but things have to go pretty wrong.   

Or premix it in your top-off water. I believe that this is how Randy Holmes-Farley used to do it. No kalk stirrer, no drip dosers, no peristaltic pumps - just saturate the top off source water and give it an occasional stir. (The pH of saturated kalkwasser is about 12.6 at room temperature. Saturated kalkwasser has about 808 ppm Ca and 40.8 meq/l of alk at 25C.)

[howaboutme]

Some thoughts.

 

1) All the test kits use similar chemistry. I would just stick to the kit that you feel comfortable with and make sure you treat it well. If you want to verify results, then bringing a water sample to a LFS is an easy way to do that and cheaper than buying another kit.

 

2) I always stress that you should be concerned with changes over time rather than an individual result. A low, but constant, Alk reading is not as bad as an erratic Alk level.

 

3) Since your ratio is a bit out of whack, then just deal with it by being vigilant with water changes -- like you are doing. Measure your levels before and after a WC to see if the WC has any effect. The problem with dosing when the situation is not ideal is that you can end up chasing your tail so to speak. If you raise alk, then Ca may drop. Then you raise Ca and your Alk drops and so on and so on. The water chemistry is a delicate dance with many factors. I see dosing as a maintenance when all is well and you want some cruise control, and not as a cure, but others may disagree.

 

4) You made an important point that everything in your tanks looks good. You should see a small but constant growth in your SPS (eg. white tips). If you see that, then you are doing fine. If your alk is low and your SPS is healthy but grows slower than average then so what? 

 

We're definitely on the same page. Just the number 5 got me a bit worried and out of my comfort "let it ride" zone. Yes, sps are growing. I dont know if they are slow or fast as this is my first tank so I have nothing to compare it to. If I had to guess, it's slow growth compared to pictures I've seen of other tanks.

 

API makes a reasonable test kit. Sometimes it's off a little, but it's pretty good for the cost. I always keep at least one other kit (Hanna, Salifert, etc.) to cross-check or to calibrate the cheaper kit.

 

Your reported alk is low; calcium is on the high side; magnesium is high, but acceptable. I've seen some SPS start to have problems when alk gets too low. Your alk, if the measurement is reasonably accurate, has a lot of headroom to be increased if desired. Using a little baking soda could do this very easily. This reef chemistry calculator can help you figure out the dosage.

 

What salt mix are you using? Are you using conditioned tap water or RO/DI when mixing up your salt?

 

I am using RC and RODI.

 

I use API kits and have for years. I have not seen them to be unreliable indicators of consumption. With that said, I try to stay in a "moderate" range for my CA and DKH. I like 380 CA, and 8-9 DKH. Maybe this is why I have not had any corals melt due to using API test kits.

 

I agree with other posters here, use some baking soda and gradually increase your Alk. Once it is established where you/your corals like it, you can determine your rate of consumption and lock in your dosing schedule. Kalkwasser is an easy first step in supplementing CA and Alk. I would look at that with a drip doser. Shouldn't cost much, and you wont be able to do too much harm... well you can, but things have to go pretty wrong.   

 

I have been researching using baking soda or Randy's Alk recipe as well as referencing the calculator that Tom linked above but I am hesitant on pulling the trigger as I don't know if I am overreacting. Even though I believe the tests are reasonably accurate, I would want 1 more check w/ a 3rd test. I have a water change scheduled for Friday and will do another test after that.

 

I'll start to look into kalk as well while I monitor in the near future but I've heard that the precipitate would cause trouble? Not sure what I am saying as I am just typing from vague memories about this subject.. Thanks all!

[jaddc]

Or premix it in your top-off water. I believe that this is how Randy Holmes-Farley used to do it. No kalk stirrer, no drip dosers, no peristaltic pumps - just saturate the top off source water and give it an occasional stir. (The pH of saturated kalkwasser is about 12.6 at room temperature. Saturated kalkwasser has about 808 ppm Ca and 40.8 meq/l of alk at 25C.)

 

That's how I do it -- and it is easy as store bought apple pie.

[jaddc]

We're definitely on the same page. Just the number 5 got me a bit worried and out of my comfort "let it ride" zone. Yes, sps are growing. I dont know if they are slow or fast as this is my first tank so I have nothing to compare it to. If I had to guess, it's slow growth compared to pictures I've seen of other tanks.

 

 

I am using RC and RODI.

 

 

I have been researching using baking soda or Randy's Alk recipe as well as referencing the calculator that Tom linked above but I am hesitant on pulling the trigger as I don't know if I am overreacting. Even though I believe the tests are reasonably accurate, I would want 1 more check w/ a 3rd test. I have a water change scheduled for Friday and will do another test after that.

 

I'll start to look into kalk as well while I monitor in the near future but I've heard that the precipitate would cause trouble? Not sure what I am saying as I am just typing from vague memories about this subject.. Thanks all!

 

The kalk precipitate does cause trouble. In my set-up I elevate my pump to dispense only saturated solution and not the precipitate.

 

Here's a how-to video on top off water Kalk

 

But of course, worry about Kalk only after you are happy with the ratio of your numbers. 

[jaddc]

We're definitely on the same page. Just the number 5 got me a bit worried and out of my comfort "let it ride" zone. Yes, sps are growing. I dont know if they are slow or fast as this is my first tank so I have nothing to compare it to. If I had to guess, it's slow growth compared to pictures I've seen of other tanks.

 

 

I am using RC and RODI.

 

 

I have been researching using baking soda or Randy's Alk recipe as well as referencing the calculator that Tom linked above but I am hesitant on pulling the trigger as I don't know if I am overreacting. Even though I believe the tests are reasonably accurate, I would want 1 more check w/ a 3rd test. I have a water change scheduled for Friday and will do another test after that.

 

I'll start to look into kalk as well while I monitor in the near future but I've heard that the precipitate would cause trouble? Not sure what I am saying as I am just typing from vague memories about this subject.. Thanks all!

 

And be sure to test your new saltwater before you add it and compare it to the water you just siphoned off your tank. That will give you some insight.

[Origami]

Jack, have you ever tested your freshly mixed RC for calcium an alkalinity?

 

If I can reasonably trust your alk numbers, I think that there's a lot of room above your numbers to mitigate an overdosing problem, but not a lot of room below your numbers. I think that you could very safely bump the number up to 7 or 8 and may even see growth take off. I'd start out slowly and observe the reaction when you do, though. Over the years, I've become a little more cavalier when dosing alk for re-balancing purposes, but advise a little more caution that I routinely practice just to be safe.

[Djplus1]

Don't waste your money on a "salifert" kit if you tested the same results on Red Sea and API. People on this board are always insane with the Salifert thing, I'd be more suspicious if the Salifert test mysteriously gave you your "desired" result after two other "reputable" tests gave you similar results. I also use Red Sea primarly, but also have Elos, Salifert, Seachem, API and guess what? They ALWAYS come out about the same give or take, and if one is off (even if it's the "Salifert"), I assume that is the faulty test, not the other 100 tests.

 

I agree with Tom, check your freshly mixed water as the salt mix could be bad.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Djplus1

[howaboutme]

Ok, I think you guys have alerted me to a possible issue. I just started a new box, maybe 2 or 3 water changes worth, of RC. I did not have this issue before. (But since I don't test much, that's not saying a lot.) I will test the new saltwater so rule that in or out.

 

Thanks for the video link, Jeff.

[Origami]

Jack, I don't do this much, but I've read somewhere that some people will mechanically mix the salt (roll the bucket around) to make sure that it's well mixed. I normally mix up nearly a whole bag at a time, so there's not much mixing needed. But if you're using less, you may want to consider agitating the mix to make sure it's homogenous.

[howaboutme]

Jack, I don't do this much, but I've read somewhere that some people will mechanically mix the salt (roll the bucket around) to make sure that it's well mixed. I normally mix up nearly a whole bag at a time, so there's not much mixing needed. But if you're using less, you may want to consider agitating the mix to make sure it's homogenous.

 

Thanks for the suggestion. It does sound like a pain the rear. My first instinct, if the salt is bad, is to contact the vendor or IO directly for an exchange or new box. I've read that IO is pretty good w/ this. I'll test and see the outcome.

[AlanM]

Your 30 days of pH are really uniform.  It seems unlikely that your alk was dropping during that time because you switched to a different box of salt.  If you were suddenly changing in much less alk with water changes it seems like you'd see it as a drop of the min/max pretty easily.

[jaddc]

Your 30 days of pH are really uniform.  It seems unlikely that your alk was dropping during that time because you switched to a different box of salt.  If you were suddenly changing in much less alk with water changes it seems like you'd see it as a drop of the min/max pretty easily.

 

That's a great point.

[Origami]

I can't see the graph (photobucket blocked here). Is this a recent phenomena? You had an early post that cited alk of about 7 roughly a month ago. Are you working from the same box of salt all that time?