Thinking about carbon dosing...

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

So after some reading I have been thinking of vinegar dosing our 210. We have a lot of fish and the tank is stable and mature. Phosphates are annoying and using the amount of gfo it takes to keep the tank at .02 -.04 is not in my budget anymore, nor good for the tank IMO. (I am going to start regenerating my gfo though) Nitrates I don't mind being around 5-10 but they used the be near zero consistently. Plus my system seems to be perfect for it, I have a large fuge which is basically my 75 gallon sump that I am growing cheato in. its baffled at the side where my skimmer and return pump intake from. I would love to run ozone but I may not be able to afford an ozone setup right now.

 

I am worried I will cause a bacteria bloom though. What's the best way to start dosing? I will use a doser. Should I start at half the suggested dosage? Should I not even bother? Give me your opinions please.

[epleeds]

There was a huge thread on RC and I remember they were starting at either 1/4 or 1/3 of dosing.

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

Got a link?

[Origami]

Vodka dosing... distilled.

 

The above article summarized much of the huge thread that emerged on this topic in the 2007-08 timeframe. You can save yourself a lot of time by starting here.

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

That's one of the articles I have read, if anyone knows any good articles or has any good/bad experiences or do's and dont's please post.

[Origami]

I dosed back in 2008. Started with sugar dosing, moved to vinegar, then vinegar in my ATO water. Finally went to vodka. Several things to note:

 

Granulated sugar didn't work well for me (at least, not alone). My corals seemed to brown out. I was just starting out, so it may have been something out. Other people have used glucose (aka dextrose) with success. I never tried it.

 

If you're running GFO or some a phosphate binder of some sort, I'd pull it while dosing. Bacteria need carbon, nitrates and phosphates. If the phosphates are all bound up, then you may find your nitrate reduction stalls.

 

When I used vinegar in my ATO water for several weeks, I wound up with a bacterial slime in my ato container. I didn't like that, so I stopped putting it in the fresh water.

 

If you dose vodka, get the cheapest stuff you can find. It works just fine.

 

Otherwise, it worked just fine and did what it was supposed to do - that is, reduced nitrate and phosphate.

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

Thanks for the advice on pulling the gfo. Never knew it could stall the nitrate reduction. Is one form of carbon dosing better at phosphate removal than others or is it the same process no matter what carbon source is used? I have read some people have good phosphate reduction and some don't.

[OldReefer]

I agree with everything that Tom said. i started dosing Vodka all the way back in 2004. Needless to say I was a bit of a freak.

 

I like pellets much better, but if you are willing to dose every day vodka works great. You know you are making progress when the skimmate goes black. While you can theoretically starve phosphate or nitrate to zero and create an imbalance where carbon dosing dies not work, but in practice it is pretty hard to do if you feed your fish well.

[scott711]

I have done vinegar for a while and like it. I haven't weaned off my GFO yet because initially my phosphates were really high. I use less GFO and my daily amount of vinegar is aroun 70ml.

[basser9]

Carbon dosing is not really a good remover of PO its more for nitrates.

Your system is a great candidate for once a week dosing of PHOS-FREE

its around 30.00 dollars from most pool supply companys.

Just mix 5 to 20ml in a liter of ro and dose into a 5/1micron bag run a slow flow

of water into the bag.

30.00 bottle should last a year or 2 depending on your water volume ......love the stuff.

I would be surprised if CARBON dosing on your tank would eliminate your need for gfo.

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

I do not expect carbon dosing to effect my phosphates more than a little. All I am after for phosphates is to be able to have another method of attack. I want to be able to run gfo and keep them near zero for longer than two weeks between changes. And I want to be able to get them near zero without aggressively running the gfo. Most of the time I can't get them any lower than .04.

 

I would think using LC once a week would make my phosphates fluctuate much more than aggressively running gfo. Plus I thought it was only good to bring down high phosphate readings and was no good at making phosphate readings near zero.

 

Also it seems whenever I see a beautiful crystal clear sps tank with lots of big fish and colorful sps I find out they are carbon dosing.

[ridetheducati]

Paul,

 

Research all forms of carbon dosing as much as you can, especially the effects of overdosing and SPS stressors. Dosing will eliminate nitrates relatively quickly, but phosphates are more difficult to manage unless you understand the Redfield ratio. Redfield is not gospel, however is a great reference. Believe it or not, when carbon dosing, you will need to feed the tank heavier.

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

Thanks man, yea I have read a lot on it. I am aware of the redfield ratio. What's the big difference between dosing vodka and vinegar? I read vodka will spark cyano easily. I am scared to dose venigar because of the amount you have to add daily too. And I am ready to feed more for sure.

 

Anyone have any good links?

[ridetheducati]

Thanks man, yea I have read a lot on it. I am aware of the redfield ratio. What's the big difference between dosing vodka and vinegar? I read vodka will spark cyano easily. I am scared to dose venigar because of the amount you have to add daily too. And I am ready to feed more for sure.

 

Anyone have any good links?

 

I mix vodka and vinegar (4:1). Vodka is eight times more potent than vinegar. When using primarily vinegar, the margin of error is wider. Cyano feeds off all types of carbon sources and becomes relevant because carbon dosing is about bacteria management, remember, cyano is bacteria.

 

There are a lot of carbon dosing systems, such as bio pellets, vodka, vinegar, sugar, Prodibio, Ultralith, Fauna Marin, Zeo, Nitra Guard, and Red Sea.

Edited May 4, 2013 by ridetheducati

[ridetheducati]

Another note, dose Sodium, Magnesium, Potassium, or Calcium Nitrate to raise nitrate levels in order "set" the Redfield ratio.

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

Vinegar and or vodka are the only two I have contemplated, biopellets would be great but not sure if I feel like paying for them. Plus they aren't as controllable from the little I understand about them.

 

Seems like people end up switching or combining after some time. What is the main reason for doing so? Anyone have advice on a start amount? Should I try for half the recommended starting dose or just go with it?

 

Tony why do you use both vodka and vinegar? More bacteria with less dosing product?

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

Another note, dose Sodium, Magnesium, Potassium, or Calcium Nitrate to raise nitrate levels in order "set" the Redfield ratio.

 

Got any good links on this? I have not researched this I was hoping heavy feeding would do it for me.

[sachabballi reef]

I dosed back in 2008. Started with sugar dosing, moved to vinegar, then vinegar in my ATO water. Finally went to vodka. Several things to note:

 

Granulated sugar didn't work well for me (at least, not alone). My corals seemed to brown out. I was just starting out, so it may have been something out. Other people have used glucose (aka dextrose) with success. I never tried it.

 

If you're running GFO or some a phosphate binder of some sort, I'd pull it while dosing. Bacteria need carbon, nitrates and phosphates. If the phosphates are all bound up, then you may find your nitrate reduction stalls.

 

When I used vinegar in my ATO water for several weeks, I wound up with a bacterial slime in my ato container. I didn't like that, so I stopped putting it in the fresh water.

 

If you dose vodka, get the cheapest stuff you can find. It works just fine.

 

Otherwise, it worked just fine and did what it was supposed to do - that is, reduced nitrate and phosphate.

 

Tom do you still dose it? If not why?...just curious...

[Origami]

Tom do you still dose it? If not why?...just curious...

Daily dosing was a pain. I found myself being inconsistent about it. Plus, I added the fish room in back (in Ashburn) and added a lot more live rock to the system. Nutrients seemed to remain under control. In addition to that, I tried some early experiments with biodegradeable plastics (specifically PLA) - or biopellets to see if it had an effect.

 

In my case, I saw both phosphate and nitrate reduction from carbon dosing. Both are needed and are consumed by bacteria but in different ratios. In my specific case, my nitrate reduction at the time (this was early on) was limited by availability of phosphates. When nitrate reduction stalled for a week or so, I removed the GFO from the system and saw nitrates drop back to zero. After that, it's a matter of watching and maintaining water quality.

 

I never experienced a cyanobacteria problem like some have reported with vodka dosing.

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

So I am going to start out with 6.5 ml a day which is what is suggested. I am guessing that if adding some rock to the fuge will give any blooms a place to start.

[basser9]

I dosed vodka before anybody knew it feeds red slime.

I got a red slime problem from it that is hard to believe it made me

resort to red slime remover......crashed my sps tank.

Like a hard head i set up a FISH ONLY and dosed it again

all my fish got this strange fungal infection after about a year.

I am living proof this stuff can be bad i did dose alot back then you

dosed untill the bloom then cut back 10 percent.

I dose PHOSFREE 15mn every hour for 6hours aday ......works great.

Edited May 4, 2013 by basser9

[DBL]

I dosed vodka before anybody knew it feeds red slime.

I got a red slime problem from it that is hard to believe it made me

resort to red slime remover......crashed my sps tank.

Like a hard head i set up a FISH ONLY and dosed it again

all my fish got this strange fungal infection after about a year.

I am living proof this stuff can be bad i did dose alot back then you

dosed untill the bloom then cut back 10 percent.

I dose PHOSFREE 15mn every hour for 6hours aday ......works great.

 

Do you use phosfree in a FOWLR only or can it be use in a mix reef?

[ridetheducati]

Paul,

 

Please read the following link.

[basser9]

Carbon dosing on a lower scale then i used with much larger

skimmer does has it placewith caution.

My old system when i dosed carbon had its beckett skimmer removed [200 watt pump to much]

for a euroreef pinwheel which i believe was not enough skimming

for aggressive carbon dosing.

My new setup has a etss 1000 becket mod and a aqua-c 1000 for a 200gallon system.

I may dose a little vinegar at some point as i believe you need very aggressive skimming

which i have now.

I dose PHOSFREE in a reef tank it is great you also can use gfo but only after the PHOSFREE

get the PO levels down to .05 or less levels.

[GraffitiSpotCorals]

Just to make sure, this skimmer will be enough for carbon dosing my 210 right?

Pump is around 2000 gph and the skimmer is almost 6', uses the mazzi injector fitting for air injection.

Here is a pic... I have a video but I guess I need to photobucket it.