Discussion (not debate) on various types of LEDs

[DaveS]

There's lots of debates out there about LEDs vs. MH. Some people like LEDs, some avoid them and stick with MH/T5s. Some of this is because the technology is new not only to reefing but new in general and therefore confusing. Confusion leads to bad implementation of LEDs and therefore bad experiences with them. Maybe we can improve this a bit.

 

There are various manufacturers out there and they have various generations of LEDs as they improve the manufacturing process. I was hoping to harness everyone's knowledge to assemble a thread allowing people to understand things better. Information that would be useful to have in one place:

 

1) Who are the different manufacturers out there- CREE, Rebel, other? There are lots of no-name Chinese manufacturers out there and to some extent they are useful to mention but I think it would be good to document the more well known brands out there that a DIY person could get from various sources. This will allow some amount of consistency in the comparisons.

2) For the different manufacturers out there, what is the difference in their lines? For example, CREE has XP-G, XP-E, XP-L, XM-L, XR-E, etc. What is the difference between them all? Which ones are older technology? Which ones only have certain colors? What other differences are there between them?

3) What combination of LED manufacturer and color are people having success with? The CREE 1:1 RB/CW ratio seems to have fallen out of favor lately due to a flat, blue look. Some people are having success replicating a Radium MH bulb coloration, what combination of LEDs did you use? Yes some of it will depend on how much you drive the different colors so include that too.

 

I know these questions seem more focused to the DIY crowd but I also think that some of the purchased units use common LEDs so topic #3 could include data about them. This also holds true for people using the PAR type bulbs.

 

I'm not looking for more debate about LED vs. MH/T5. While I agree there is plenty to debate on that, maybe if we can clear up the LED side of things a little we can also clear up a little bit of the LED vs. MH/T5 debate along the way. Please focus your posts on what you know about LEDs and what combinations you have used and some observations on it worked out.

 

Thanks guys!

[basser9]

Heres a great example of why leds cause so much debate.

Ibuilt a led fixture using a deep dish pizzapan and Xre leds.

I bought a few from dealextreme a few from kaiomain some from other venders.

All were the same that were rb but all the cw were very different.

You can get a cw thats 5k and a nw thata 5k.......a 7k cw can be way greener then another 7k all from cree or rebels.

My light was over a frag tank and had perfect color,,,,,way better then my 14k phoenix mh.

I had really built the light with nw/cw because of all the cw bins i used.

 

http://shop.stevesle...utral-White.htm

 

IF you are going to drive your whites no higher then 1000ma then this is right now the best for a reef.

How many people have even saw this led before.

Because of steves led prices on the rebel es it is the best deal as long as he keeps the 3.00 prices.

The rb are 440nm and will be purple to some but they match up great with cree cw.

The cree xte rb match well will the rebels whites......examples of why its no simple answer like cw dont look right or nw look better.

Edited June 3, 2012 by basser9

[scott711]

There's lots of debates out there about LEDs vs. MH. Some people like LEDs, some avoid them and stick with MH/T5s. Some of this is because the technology is new not only to reefing but new in general and therefore confusing. Confusion leads to bad implementation of LEDs and therefore bad experiences with them. Maybe we can improve this a bit.

 

There are various manufacturers out there and they have various generations of LEDs as they improve the manufacturing process. I was hoping to harness everyone's knowledge to assemble a thread allowing people to understand things better. Information that would be useful to have in one place:

 

1) Who are the different manufacturers out there- CREE, Rebel, other? There are lots of no-name Chinese manufacturers out there and to some extent they are useful to mention but I think it would be good to document the more well known brands out there that a DIY person could get from various sources. This will allow some amount of consistency in the comparisons.

2) For the different manufacturers out there, what is the difference in their lines? For example, CREE has XP-G, XP-E, XP-L, XM-L, XR-E, etc. What is the difference between them all? Which ones are older technology? Which ones only have certain colors? What other differences are there between them?

3) What combination of LED manufacturer and color are people having success with? The CREE 1:1 RB/CW ratio seems to have fallen out of favor lately due to a flat, blue look. Some people are having success replicating a Radium MH bulb coloration, what combination of LEDs did you use? Yes some of it will depend on how much you drive the different colors so include that too.

 

I know these questions seem more focused to the DIY crowd but I also think that some of the purchased units use common LEDs so topic #3 could include data about them. This also holds true for people using the PAR type bulbs.

 

I'm not looking for more debate about LED vs. MH/T5. While I agree there is plenty to debate on that, maybe if we can clear up the LED side of things a little we can also clear up a little bit of the LED vs. MH/T5 debate along the way. Please focus your posts on what you know about LEDs and what combinations you have used and some observations on it worked out.

 

Thanks guys!

 

Here are some sites I used for my build. They actually answer a lot of your questions.

 

http://reefledlights.com

 

http://www.rapidled.com

 

http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/pages/FAQ.html

[treesprite]

Good topic. Now I want some pizza.

[basser9]

BEWARE of venders when getting advice.

 

My link

 

nano-reef.com is the only site that goes into cree/rebel bin detail

and has the best post if you need some clues.

 

cutter has some nice leds together on a star that make building a radion copy easy.

 

My link

 

the best thing that i have seen yet its a 3up of 420nm on a 20star for 15.00

Sold on cutters site .

Edited June 3, 2012 by basser9

[DaveS]

Here are some sites I used for my build. They actually answer a lot of your questions.

 

http://reefledlights.com

 

http://www.rapidled.com

 

http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/pages/FAQ.html

 

I've read those site before and, while full of great DIY information, it doesn't really get into any specific LED considerations. Nothing about any manufacturers other than the ones they sell. Nothing much about color combos and their resulting look or what combinations the fixture manufacturers are using.

 

 

I did find a answer to a specific question on ledgroupbuy.

 

Q: Are XP-G better than XR-E? A: YES! XR-E are the 2009 bigger bulky models that put out less light! XP-G are the new smaller more efficient ones.

Here is example of size difference: http://ledsreview.com/news/214/

Example of difference for cool whites:

XR-E puts out 107 lumens @ 3.3

whereas XP-G puts out 139 lumens @ 3.0v

So what that means is you get more light for less power. There is almost no reason to buy XR-E unless you still have optics for XR-E laying around that you haven't used (Even still i wouldn't buy them)

 

I also saw from basser's link to Nano-reefs that people are going towards a Cree RB and Rebel NW to produce a less purple color than what others get with Cree RB and Cree NW. Reading the rest of that thread now.

[icecool2]

Quite the can of bristle worms here...

 

A bit of background.... I got into LED's in 2008 and built one of the first large fixtures. Mine is 4' long and is completely DIY from the fixture to the drive electronics. My fixture has been supporting my reef tank successfully for 4+ years and it is still running strong today. I've only had to replace one power supply and that was my own fault.

 

IMO LEDs are a great alternative to MH. They offer reduced heat, reduced maintenance and reduced cost of operation. That being said, we need to be careful when comparing the two. For years, we looked at how many Watts of MH lighting you had and simple PAR readings. The problem is that this same test doesn't hold true for LEDs. We need a test that is effective and meaningful for both. For this, we need to analyze the actual spectrum of light. That is starting to get off topic though...

 

Cree started the high powered LED market and are still very much the lead in innovation. That being said, there will always be generics. I run all Cree LEDs on my tank, but I've seen plenty of people have great success with Chinese no-names as well. With all of them, the biggest factor to consider is how many hours they continue to drive at their specified color. Only Cree puts this information out consistently. Others don't. Essentially, all LEDs will shift in color (just like MH) as they age. With LEDs that can take tens of thousands of hours if they are used properly (ie proper drive, proper temps). EDIT: This is called the L70, the number of hours of run time until the output reduces to 70% of nominal.

 

For me, I run 1:1 RB/NW Crees with 2-T12 True Actinics. The actinics provide the pop that the LEDs just can't match.

 

One final note, if you see a fixture that doesn't use optics on the LEDs, you should question the design. Most LEDs have 180 degree optics which means you are wasting 50% of the light to areas you don't care about. I run 60 degree optics and have my fixture mounted 8" above the water.

Edited June 4, 2012 by icecool2

[hypertech]

For me, I run 1:1 RB/NW Crees with 2-T12 True Actinics. The actinics provide the pop that the LEDs just can't match.

 

Interesting that you say that. Most say that LEDs (particularly royal blue) give a pop other lighting can't.

 

I built a royal blue Cree XRE? (can't remember exactly which but it is Cree) strip for actinic. It definately adds that pop to my MH.

 

FWIW, I would stick to a major name like Cree. It will be easier to get standard sized stars so you can replace them if needed and don't find that your replacement is 2mm off. It will also make it easier to find optics, etc. Although there is little data available, my gut says that Cree's performance will be closer to their data sheets, so if you are expecting it to last a long time, your chance of that actually happening is better with Cree.

[icecool2]

Interesting that you say that. Most say that LEDs (particularly royal blue) give a pop other lighting can't.

To me, it was missing that purple punch. I could push on the blues, but it starts to get that windexy look that I don't like. Personal preference weighs in on that one for sure.

[taiscici]

The thing that I found difficult on my first LED built is not knowing how much LEDs is enough. I found a formula posted on RC that I think will help newbies In their built.

LxW/16x3w.

Example a tank

48x24=1152/16=72x3=216w minimum require.

So for minimum I would need 216w (this is for sps tank, FOWL and softies might need less)

 

Epistar is Chinese brand that I like alternative to Cree but it is more expensive than other unknown Chinese brand.

[hlem]

The thing that I found difficult on my first LED built is not knowing how much LEDs is enough. I found a formula posted on RC that I think will help newbies In their built.

LxW/16x3w.

Example a tank

48x24=1152/16=72x3=216w minimum require.

So for minimum I would need 216w (this is for sps tank, FOWL and softies might need less)

 

Epistar is Chinese brand that I like alternative to Cree but it is more expensive than other unknown Chinese brand.

Does this formula take lenses into account? And tank depth?

Edited June 4, 2012 by hlem

[taiscici]

This formula is just giving you the basic coverage of the length and width only. Depends on the heigh of tank you will need different lenses such as 90,60 and 40 degree. Also this formula requires that you mix up the color of LEDs for example 240w of all blue or all 20k obviously won"t be good for corals growth even though you met the minimum requirement.

 

This formula is not 100% accurate but should give you a basic idea to start the project.

[Chad]

Interesting idea for a post. As I think most find when they get into this... there is SOOOOO much information out there, it could make someone's head explode. Here is some of the information that I discovered when searching.

 

1) Who are the different manufacturers out there- CREE, Rebel, other? There are lots of no-name Chinese manufacturers out there and to some extent they are useful to mention but I think it would be good to document the more well known brands out there that a DIY person could get from various sources. This will allow some amount of consistency in the comparisons.

 

I know there are others, but I recommend CREE. Why? Because they have really good documentation in data sheets. I have not found another with as good of documentation, everything from binning (so you can really dial in a spectrum - on page 3) to reliability and life cycle testing. To me, as a DIYer, knowing this information is most of the battle in understanding exactly what I have.

 

2) For the different manufacturers out there, what is the difference in their lines? For example, CREE has XP-G, XP-E, XP-L, XM-L, XR-E, etc. What is the difference between them all? Which ones are older technology? Which ones only have certain colors? What other differences are there between them?

 

For CREE, the letter designations are largely a progression of technology, although there is also a size of emitter aspect of it. To us, it doesn't really matter that much as long as we get the newest LED. This technology is progressing very very rapidly at the moment. Likely, by the time you go out and do the research, buy the stuff, and get around to building a fixture, your LEDs will be out of date.

 

Right now, the newest LEDs from CREE are XM-L for white and XT-E for RB, other colors are in the XP-G series.

 

3) What combination of LED manufacturer and color are people having success with? The CREE 1:1 RB/CW ratio seems to have fallen out of favor lately due to a flat, blue look. Some people are having success replicating a Radium MH bulb coloration, what combination of LEDs did you use? Yes some of it will depend on how much you drive the different colors so include that too.

 

What I see recommended most frequently are 1:1 RB/NW on dimming drivers, although I would go with WW. If you look at the spectrums (page 6 for white and 7 for colors), the blue peak in the warm white has a higher wavelength than the NW and CW (for NW and CW, the blue peak is pretty much the same peak that the RB hits... IMO, hitting any one peak that hard can't be good). It also has more of the rest of the spectrum that really ends up being missed in CW/RB or NW/RB builds.

 

Having two color channels drastically simplifies things for a DIYer. Remember, each time a new, dimming color channel gets added, it adds complexity and cost.

[zygote2k]

I currently service a 375g that uses 3) 36" Marineland Doublebright stips and it gives off a 10k look. The lights are mounted a foot off the water. Fish 0nly.

75g reef using a 36" Marineland Reefbright sitting on the glass lids. Plenty enough light to grow softies, zoas, shrooms, montiporas. Appears to be 12-14k.

250g freshwater using 2) 48" Singlebrights looks very nice 10k-12k.

60g hex with 2) PAnorama 12w 50/50 strips. looks 14k. grows softies slowly- light not enough.

90g using 4) Ecoxotic Panorama Pros (3 white and 1 50/50). Mounted 12" above water. Grows LPS, softies shrooms. Appears to be 12-14k.

240 using 8) Panorama Pros consisting of 4) white, 2) actinic, 2) 443nm/Magentas. Grows LPS, softies, shrooms. Appears to be a purplish 14k.

90g SPS reef with 12) Par38 bulbs in a 50/50 mix white to blue Crees. Been running for close to 3 years under LED's Everything grows. 14k.

150g reef with 6) P38's growing softies, zoas, shrooms, montiporas. Very tall tank with 40degree optics pushes light all the way to the bottom.

180g reef with 3) 50w Photon Cannons and 2) Panorama Pro RB strips. Looks like classic Iwaski 6500k with actinic supplementation. Growing SPS, LPS, clams, etc.

120 cube with 1) 100w 12k Photon Cannon and 1) 100w RB Cannon. Under construction.

110 cube with 36) 3w Cree's in a 1:1 CW/RB ratio. Best look of all so far. 14-20k.

150 semi-circle full reef with 3) Chucelli built fixtures with 72) Crees in a 1:1 ratio. Mimics the look of the 110 cube.

240 full reef with 3) AI Sol's. Looks very much like 20k. Too blue for my taste. Power supply issues on these too.

65g LPS with a single AI Sol 12" off water. 14k-20k

 

1st generation Panorama Pros fail often. Heatsinks too small and lead to premature burn out. Newer generation has some sort of heat dissipating film that is supposed to alleviate this issue. I recommend using fans with these.

50w Photon Cannons have power supply burn out issues after 2 years. Heatsink is fine, but needs a fan too.

Par38's made by Nanotuners and Ecoxotic seem to be very well built and have yet to fail after 3 years.

AI's seem to be hit or miss on power supplies and need a fan.

 

Of all these systems, I like the DIY and P38's the best. Both are very reliable and give a very nice realistic look to corals and fish when used in a 1:1 RB/CW ratio.

[Larry Grenier]

Just to throw my $.02 in the mix.

 

I built an actinic supplementation kit along-side my T5s using this kit except when I bought it, you had to get your own heat-sink. I used a 36" piece of aluminum square tubing I picked-up at HD.

 

These 12 LEDS totally blows-away and two T5 actinics you can put it up against. I'm strongly considering replacing all the T5s with LEDS.

[icecool2]

This is still very much a work in progress, but I made a LED calculator which determines how many LEDs (minimum) you need to completely cover a tank based on mounting height, optics and spacing. Use it with a grain of salt and I'm open to suggestions and inputs.

 

http://www.engineersreef.com/The_Engineers_Reef/LED_Calculator.html

[schudini]

This is still very much a work in progress, but I made a LED calculator which determines how many LEDs (minimum) you need to completely cover a tank based on mounting height, optics and spacing. Use it with a grain of salt and I'm open to suggestions and inputs.

 

http://www.engineers...Calculator.html

 

Hey, that's a nice calculator. I'm glad it has the optics calculations.

[Chad]

Here are the various (CREE) spectrums all lumped into one place... this was my starting point when I was playing with calculated vs. actual spectrums and overall color temperatures.

 

Spectrum.xls

 

 

[icecool2]

Here are the various (CREE) spectrums all lumped into one place... this was my starting point when I was playing with calculated vs. actual spectrums and overall color temperatures.

 

Spectrum.xls

 

 

 

Awesome spreadsheet! Do you have the information for which Cree line each color is from?

 

Also, would you mind if I shared this? I know some people who would really like this info.

[DaveS]

For CREE, the letter designations are largely a progression of technology, although there is also a size of emitter aspect of it. To us, it doesn't really matter that much as long as we get the newest LED. This technology is progressing very very rapidly at the moment. Likely, by the time you go out and do the research, buy the stuff, and get around to building a fixture, your LEDs will be out of date.

 

Right now, the newest LEDs from CREE are XM-L for white and XT-E for RB, other colors are in the XP-G series.

 

This is interesting. So does this mean that the other colors which are at XP-G will eventually get to XM-L and/or XT-E? Does anyone know the sequence of the designations from older technology to newer?

 

Good info guys, let's keep sharing.

[Chad]

^I don't mind.

 

The info in the lines below the graph is taken by direct reading (meaning there is observation error) from the data sheets I posted above.

 

Also, if the data were used in any calculation, understand that each line is normalized such that the highest peak is at 100%... To be useful, this needs to be taken into account.

[basser9]

At this point of time the rebel es are the best leds.......lower power .....more lumens and less heat.

The problem will rebel has been that all the diy venders use cree.

Now that steves led has all the top bin leds at 3.00 a pop its rebel es 1...cree 2

 

The great thing about rebels are the cyan....deep red....that are around plus there high cri whites.

At the very least adding some 440-450nm rb will thicken your spectrum.

 

People dont relize that the rebel es rb use less electric have more power and run cooler.

They are just better then the xte rb unless you want a 460nm instead of a 440-450nm.

[Chad]

^I am not doubting anything you say, but I am a proof is in the pudding guy. Can you provide data to support the claims?

[taiscici]

This is still very much a work in progress, but I made a LED calculator which determines how many LEDs (minimum) you need to completely cover a tank based on mounting height, optics and spacing. Use it with a grain of salt and I'm open to suggestions and inputs.

 

http://www.engineers...Calculator.html

 

That's a nice calculator, I can see this will be very useful. Is the output minimum for LPS and Softies tank? b/c the number i got for 48 x 24 tank is kind low for SPS. Also i'm assume you have to mix RB & CW(10k).

[icecool2]

That's a nice calculator, I can see this will be very useful. Is the output minimum for LPS and Softies tank? b/c the number i got for 48 x 24 tank is kind low for SPS. Also i'm assume you have to mix RB & CW(10k).

 

Thanks. There is in partly why this is still a work in progress. The ultimate intention is to do some power calculations at various depths and actually make them meaningful. At the moment, this simply calculates coverage and does not take into consideration power.

 

EDIT: Along those lines, anyone who's good at math and wants to help, please feel free to shoot me a PM or an email.

Edited June 5, 2012 by icecool2