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180G+90G refugium


emissary

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As I've mentioned before, I'm planning on putting a 180 in the wall. I was going to use my existing 75G as a sump, but I think I'm going to use a 90G as a sump instead. Attached is a picture of how I envision the two tanks set up. I'm planning on using simple upturned bulkheads as overflows.

 

I'm going to use a Tunze stream on the right side of the tank (as you're looking at it from the back) for circulation so I'm not worried about the return pointing off in multiple directions. Should I be? As it's drawn, The current from the Mag12 will oppose the tunze.

 

I've left an area 6" wide and 25" deep (right?) for the skimmer (right now it's a Berlin Turbo) and the return pump (Mag 12 I'm planning on buying). Is that enough room? I think so. The skimmer end to end including the pump is about 16 inches. That should leave plenty for the mag.

 

Do the baffles look right?

 

Am I missing anything? I don't have any ball valves in the picture... but I'm not sure I need any the way I'm doing this. Which I suppose means I'm a little worried I'm doing it "wrong." Most setups I see have lots of filtration *stuff* going on, yet this is pretty simple. Thoughts?

post-386-1115600873_thumb.gif

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Bigger is better. If you can fit a 90, that would be great, but a 75 wouldn't be bad either. If you already have the 75, maybe save the cost of a 90 and spend that somewhere else.

 

A mag 12 is only going to push about 800-900 GPH at 6 feet. If you haven't gotten it yet, consider upgrading to mag 18 or 24. I have a mag 18 on my 150 and wish I had a Mag 24.

 

I don't understand, what is an "upturned bulkhead?" Are you drilling the bottom of the tank or the back wall? If noise is a concern, consider an inclosed overflow and Durso - type stand pipes.

 

I would put the skimmer before the Fuge and have some raw tank water hit the fuge. Or have the fuge on one side, skimmer on the other (raw water going to each side) and the return pump in the middle. Do a search on a big forum (I like Reefs.org) for sump designs, that will give you lots of ideas.

 

Phil

------

Edit, Now I see your drawing. 48*24*25 is not a 180. I think that is 120. a 6 ft tank would be a 180. Your bulkhead skimmer idea can work, and wouldn't sacrafice tank space... but you wouldn't be able to have dursos.

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Yanek,

Ditto's what Phil said, Your measurements of 48x24x25 divided by 231 = 125g

 

Also, I'm running a MAG12 in my 90g tank with 2-200/225gph PH and 1-900gph which brings it to about 2400-2500gph and wish I had more! I would go with a MAG18 or better yet, Japanese IWAKI 70 external to reduce heat too! But if your using a MAG12 and Tunze stream together and the tank is actually 125g vs 180g, then you should be good to go IMO!

 

For overflow, I'm using 3 One inch bulkheads with as you call it, up turned bulkheads, AKA PVC Elbows for surface drains, correct? Make sure you have Strainers on the ends, I've had 4 Percula Clowns make the trip down the pipes to the drains below, one didn't make it! :(

So this I like with 2" drains!

 

Your sump looks fine, I just finished a 29g design with an opposite setup then yours, see my gallery for a picture & designs. BUT, You have your outflows coming into an spot before your bubble baffles, THEN into the sump which I LIKE this idea very much. BUT you have it overflowing into the return pump which can cause the waterfalling to create bubbles which will be returning back into tank!!

2 suggestions here. #1 Setup another bubble baffle with last plate of glass/plexiglass to have a slight angle as to allow the water to slide down to return pump, not just fall there! IMHO, my recommendation! #2 well forget about #2 and do #1!

 

Now on the room and putting Skimmer at the end with return pump. With a 90g sump, I would put your skimmer in the initial area where the water is coming into sump from tank, this way, your circulating the worst water coming into the sump and cleaning it the quickest. Your only catching a small amount of water before it gets to the fuge, so won't effect the plant/pod growth there. Run both your 2" overflows to come into the chamber, possibly using LR as a splash pads to slow water into sump with skimmer besides. Then through baffles into fuge with another set of baffles before return pump. Seems to be congested but with a 90g sump, you should have enough room for all?

 

Last night I had the AWESOME feat of seeing BENDALAT "Khanh" tanks, GOT TO SEE THESE BTW! He had an excellent idea about wrapping his pumps in the sump with large bubble wrap which #1 helped quite the pump and #2 actually kept the pump floating a bit off the glass. GREAT IDEA I thought!

Howard

PS, TANK TOUR TANK TOUR TANK TOUR when your done! :)

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As with the others I have a bit of confusion as to the actual volume :lol: ....but....it doesn't really matter.

 

I'll take the other tack on this one - IMHO high flow through the sump is a fools game. There are far to many negative impacts to make this a worthwile endevor. I say any more flow through the sump than skimmer can process & fuge needs is a waste.

 

Here's a thread on RC that goes into great detail on the subject, bears reading before you decide on the return pump.

 

RC Return Pump Thread

 

As for the sump, I'm a big fan of "bigger is better" so I'd use the 90. I'm also a fan of having the drain on one end, fuge on the other, & return in the middle. This allows BOTH the fuge & the skimmer to get raw water, which both can process.

 

Here's a link to Melev's model "F" - the single best design I've seen for sumps. It can be scaled to fit any size -

 

Melev's Model F

 

Also, is that 2" holes (as in for a 1.5" bulkhead)? or holes for 2" bulkheads? A single 1.5" bulkhead can run 1300gph, two of them would allow serious flow?

 

As opposed to the Tunze stream(s) have you considered the wave box?

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Bigger is better.  If you can fit a 90, that would be great, but a 75 wouldn't be bad either.  If you already have the 75, maybe save the cost of a 90 and spend that somewhere else.

Ah well there are logistical problems with using the existing 75 what with it being chock full of livestock. Getting the 180 and the 90 means that I can do an entire setup and migrate stuff.

 

A mag 12 is only going to push about 800-900 GPH at 6 feet.  If you haven't gotten it yet, consider upgrading to mag 18 or 24.  I have a mag 18 on my 150 and wish I had a Mag 24. 

Why would I need a better pump? What does a higher gph do for me?

 

I don't understand, what is an "upturned bulkhead?" Are you drilling the bottom of the tank or the back wall?  If noise is a concern, consider an inclosed overflow and Durso - type stand pipes.

back drilled. u shaped pvc inside the tank at the two holes. Sound isn't a big problem since the tank's going to be in a wall and the sound will be in the "fish room." I COULD do enclosed overflow easily enough. I'm just worried an enclosed overflow would affect the "look" of the tank. I'm seriously considering glasscages.com for a tank.

 

Edit, Now I see your drawing.  48*24*25 is not a 180.  I think that is 120.  a 6 ft tank would be a 180.  Your bulkhead skimmer idea can work, and wouldn't sacrafice tank space... but you wouldn't be able to have  dursos.

Sorry, typo. Should be 72". It is definitely a 180. It's a scale drawing.

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I'll take the other tack on this one - IMHO high flow through the sump is a fools game. There are far to many negative impacts to make this a worthwile endevor. I say any more flow through the sump than skimmer can process & fuge needs is a waste.

"So what you're saying is..." a mag 12 is more than enough? In my mind, one of the benefits a sump provides comes from the water turbulence. Higher flow means more water gets turbulated! Still, with the skimmer that's less of an issue.

 

As for the sump, I'm a big fan of "bigger is better" so I'd use the 90. I'm also a fan of having the drain on one end, fuge on the other, & return in the middle. This allows BOTH the fuge & the skimmer to get raw water, which both can process.

sounds like there's some consensus on the idea that water shouldn't flow THROUGH the fuge. Whereas I had thought allowing water to flow through the fuge would pick up more critters and take them to the return pump. Hey, pump-kill dead food is still good food. I can see some of the benefits of putting the skimmer on the same side as the incoming water.

 

Here's a link to Melev's model "F" - the single best design I've seen for sumps. It can be scaled to fit any size -

I was looking to maximize refugium space. Is that inappropriate?

 

Also, is that 2" holes (as in for a 1.5" bulkhead)? or holes for 2" bulkheads? A single 1.5" bulkhead can run 1300gph, two of them would allow serious flow?

This is where everything I know about aquarium plumbing gets exposed as absolutely nothing. Frankly, I've never hard plumbed a tank properly though I'm interested in doing so. What size of holes DO I want? What kind of bulkheads do I use and how do I 'hook it all up' ? I have no idea.

 

As opposed to the Tunze stream(s) have you considered the wave box?

Well the wave box as I recall is a good bit more. and all that water sloshing around makes me nervous. maybe I'm just old fashioned.

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OH WRONG AGAIN YOUNG GRASSHOPPER!

72"x24"x25" = 43,200 / 231 = 187.02 gallons

IT'S A MONSTER!

:P

 

Being that it's a 187 gallon tank :)

I would recommend the MAG18 minimum with an External IWAKI even more!

IMO

Two 2" Inside Diameter PVC Pipe Bulkheads, See TRT for drilling those if you haven't already!

Chip "Flowseller" has this same tank, you might one to contact him on his setup and see what he did for overflows, etc. Very quite tank!

Higher GPH: Water flow in the ocean mean healthy corals and fish. The more is the better within reason. From what I've seen and read, most experienced Reefers recommend over 20gph flow per gal vs. some recommendations of 10gph flow per gal. Basically most recommend the water to a slow roll on the surface. I've seen both types of tanks and both are doing well, so I guess it's a matter of preference?

Fuge Space: figure out what you need for pumps, skimmers, baffle area's and the rest to go to the fuge area!

Howard

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I stand by my suggestion of a bigger pump, but understand the argument in favor of a mag 12.

 

Not sure you are getting what we are saying about skimmer on one side, fuge on the other, return in the middle. If the skimmer was after the fuge, pods and good stuff would get skimmed out.

 

You would need to have tank water coming into each side... fuge and skimmer, then flow into the center and back to tank. Chopped pods, even live pods and other good stuff will make it back to the tank.

 

If you want to use the 75 as the sump, just make a "temporary" sump out of a $8 30 gal rubbermade tub. Make the transition and then turn the 75 into the long tern solution... then again you could prolly find a used 90.

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Not sure you are getting what we are saying about skimmer on one side, fuge on the other, return in the middle. If the skimmer was after the fuge, pods and good stuff would get skimmed out.

 

You would need to have tank water coming into each side... fuge and skimmer, then flow into the center and back to tank.  Chopped pods, even live pods and other good stuff will make it back to the tank.

 

No no, I get what you're saying. But I think I can accomplish this by the following -- Looking at the tank from the back:

 

 

return | fuge | incoming water and skimmer

 

where the water if generally flowing right to left across the 90g depicted textually above. Yah? The skimmer is "before" the fuge.

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Also, is that 2" holes (as in for a 1.5" bulkhead)? or holes for 2" bulkheads? A single 1.5" bulkhead can run 1300gph, two of them would allow serious flow?

 

Well... with the recent reading I've done and taking in the opinions of all parties (i.e. MORE flow people and LESS flow people), I think I'm settled on a mag 12. I can always change this later (provided the holes I drill are big enough). Now... my 75G I have now is a custom jobbie with a single 4" hole in the back. Yes, it allows for SERIOUS flow... but I don't need to use it.

 

So, given this, what size holes do I ask for? And we're talking diameter here not radius, right? Are you saying that a 1.5" bulkhead is actually about 2" in diameter where it straddles the glass? And the PVC you'd use on both sides would be 1.5" ? Forgive me, I'm a plumbing neophyte.

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I think the Mag12 will be fine, I didn't mean you should necessarily go smaller. As for airation the skimmer and the surface agitation will provide most of it, most likely more than increasing the amount of water that flows through the sump.

 

As for the sump. If you look at Melev's design the layout is (looking at the side of the sump) Drain/skimmer | return | fuge. The drain is tee'd off & part of the flow goes to the fuge w/ the remaining (most) of the water goes to the skimmer section. This give both the fuge & the skimer raw water. Having the fuge after the skimmer gives the fuge skimmed water & cuts down on the nutrients that the pods need - not the best IMHO. It's a simple matter to use ball valves to control how much flow each area recieves.

 

Drains? The RC main page has a drain size calculator. You simply plug in the amount of water you want to drain & it gives you the pipe (and overflow area) you'll need. 1.5" Bulkheads require (in general, they are brand specific to an extent) a 2 5/8" hole & the flanges are larger than that - they are pretty big holes. One 1.5" will flow 1300gph. Two would allow a serious amount of flow....but...they are large. If I were going to use 1.5" drains I think I'd have to use an overflow to hide them.

 

If you're going w/ glass cages you can just tell them to put X size bulkheads in Y position - they sell bulkheads w/ the tanks (I believe). I would be up to them to size the holes correctly. If that's not the situtation then I suggest ordering the bulkheads - then you'll know the hole size & can just tell the maker I need X sized holes in Y location(s). MarineDepot lists the hole sizes for the bulkheads they sell - I used this to tell the builder the size of the holes (actually ordered them from Savko). As I mentioned it's a tad risky but by & large most sch 40 bulkheads are the same (LifeReef brand).

 

Truthfully I haven't priced a wave box so I don't know if or how much more they cost - I guess that would depend on which stream unit :lol: I guess which stream would depend on the livestock - for SPS you're talking high flow which might require a couple of the larger streams.

 

And the PVC you'd use on both sides would be 1.5" ? Forgive me, I'm a plumbing neophyte.

If that's the size of the bulkhead you decide on then yes. 1.5" pvc.

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Drains? The RC main page has a drain size calculator. You simply plug in the amount of water you want to drain & it gives you the pipe (and overflow area) you'll need. 1.5" Bulkheads require (in general, they are brand specific to an extent) a 2 5/8" hole & the flanges are larger than that - they are pretty big holes. One 1.5" will flow 1300gph. Two would allow a serious amount of flow....but...they are large. If I were going to use 1.5" drains I think I'd have to use an overflow to hide them.

 

So... seing as I don't necessarily want overflow areas, just elbows... maybe I should ask for 1" bulkheads? Or do they go smaller?

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They go smaller - down to 1/4" bulkheads for RO stuff. With a mag12 you'd want at least 1200gph capacity @ the bare minimum that means 2x1" (1" flows 600gph max). though if I was cutting it that close I'd go 3 (I like to have a safety margin).

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They go smaller - down to 1/4" bulkheads for RO stuff. With a mag12 you'd want at least 1200gph capacity @ the bare minimum that means 2x1" (1" flows 600gph max). though if I was cutting it that close I'd go 3 (I like to have a safety margin).

 

Hmm... if I go three, then I can just take two of them to feed the simmer and one to feed the fuge with return in the middle, yah?

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Hmm... if I go three, then I can just take two of them to feed the simmer and one to feed the fuge with return in the middle, yah?

And you call yourself a plumbing neophyte :lol: Sounds like a good idea to me & it would prevent having a run across the sump to feed the fuge. Still might need ball valves to control what area get what flow.

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Okay, I've updated the pic at the top of this thread to reflect changes based on y'all's inputs. So in summary:

 

[ skimmer |baffles| mag12 |baffle| refugium ]

 

Three 1" PVC pipes coming down from 3 1.5" bulkheads. Two of them join and end up feeding the skimmer. The other feeds the refugium and has a ball valve to control flow.

 

MAG12 provides return into a SCWD. Not REALLY using SCWD for wavemotion since the Tunze Stream is there, but I'd rather not have to be pushing current in one direction constantly if I can avoid it.

 

this all seem reasonable? I'll need some SEROUS advice when it comes time to put PVC cement to the tubing...

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I'll need some SEROUS advice when it comes time to put PVC cement to the tubing..

Pretty easy -

 

#1 - Cut pipe & de-burr the inside

#2 - Wipe both sections w/ primer

#3 - Coat one piece with cement (I like to do the pipe)

#4 - Push pipe into joint & turn 1/4 turn

 

Let dry, 5 minutes & it's firm enough for pressure (continued piping), 24hrs & it's cured for tank use (though I've done a couple of hours w/ no effects).

 

Tips -

 

- Dry fit plumbing first

- Glue small sections first, parts are easier to handle

- WELL ventilated area, if indoors have a fan sucking air out of the room - the stuff REEKS

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Yanek,

Stop over again and take a close look at what I've done to the back of my 90g tank. Pretty much what your looking to do here:122DIY_ChipOSkimmer-med.jpg

A couple of issues that I want to address:

#1 Your showing SCWD up high, I would lower to just above the tank with soft PVC piping from your MAG12. This would allow more punch to get through the SCWD and then run to corners for returns.

#2 With a 90g Sump, you will have alot of room for the refugium. IMO, I would add second setup of baffles, to eliminate having a waterfalling effect into return pump area, creating a mass of bubbles. Also the final glass/plexiglass panel should be canted to allow the water to SLIDE down glass to MAG12. I can't remember who to give credit to this tip at the LIGHT PARTY, but proved to be invaluable!

#3 I'm NOT crazy about adding anything to restrict water in the overflow pipes. So far, I like the idea about building a small chamber/box in the sump filled with LR to catch overflow water in my tank. With a glass about 1" lower than exit baffle area to allow water to gently flow over and out of Single Overflow Catch Basin into and over fuge towards baffles.

#4 I'm a big fan of Soft PVC plumbing vs Hard PVC. Alot more forgiving.

BTW, Would love to be able to need a 90 gallon sump!!

Howard

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Stop over again and take a close look at what I've done to the back of my 90g tank.

Yeah it's a good bet you've got going some of the things I'll want to look at when the time comes. I think I'll use slightly more hard plumb... not exclusively though. Returns will probably be soft.

 

#1 Your showing SCWD up high, I would lower to just above the tank with soft PVC piping from your MAG12. This would allow more punch to get through the SCWD and then run to corners for returns.

Ok. I wouldn't have thought positioning of the SCWD would affect much...

 

#2 With a 90g Sump, you will have alot of room for the refugium. IMO, I would add second setup of baffles, to eliminate having a waterfalling effect into return pump area, creating a mass of bubbles. Also the final glass/plexiglass panel should be canted to allow the water to SLIDE down glass to MAG12. I can't remember who to give credit to this tip at the LIGHT PARTY, but proved to be invaluable!

Mmm... yeah, I think you mentioned that earlier. I could lean both the final baffle in the set AND the baffle coming from the refugium. I don't think I want to take any more space away from it. Bubbles aren't really a big problem for me right now and I've got nothing in the way of baffles.

 

#3 I'm NOT crazy about adding anything to restrict water in the overflow pipes.

Hmm... I guess there is some risk of stuckage...

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#1 - Cut pipe & de-burr the inside

#2 - Wipe both sections w/ primer

#3 - Coat one piece with cement (I like to do the pipe)

#4 - Push pipe into joint & turn 1/4 turn

 

Right right... but it's a matter of having the right PARTS to hook up various sections. I know how to glue general CVS pvc together more or less (what's de-burr?). But... mixing hard and soft pluming (if I do that) I don' t know how to do. Also the particular pieces involved in the bulkhead with the elbows I'm not sure how to put together. Maybe glasscages will do that for me. Finally, attaching something reasonable to the return lines that produces a wider spread of water... dunno whats' involved there.

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Right right... but it's a matter of having the right PARTS to hook up various sections

 

Ah, no worries - no matter what you get you'll still have to run to the Home Depot/Lowes for some pieces you forgot :lol: I like to call PVC "legos" for adults.

 

Some common PVC terms

 

slip x slip - this means that pipe "slips" into both sides of the connector (use glue)

 

slip x thread - means one side is threaded & the other is slip. All PVC threads are NPT unless stated.

 

Union - a device that connects two pieces of PVC w/ threaded collars for removal

 

Bushing - used to reduce the size of the pipe (or increase in reverse)

 

Elbow - used to make a turn, 90* or 45*. Pipe slides into both ends

 

Street Elbow - used to make a 90* - except one end of elbow goes INTO the joint = less space.

 

Coupling - joins two pieces of pipe, like a splice

 

Male adaptor - threaded end is male & slip on the other end.

 

Female adaptor - threaded end is female & slip on the other end.

 

Using your diagram (from the bulkhead)

 

Blkhd -> short piece of PVC, about 1.5" -> 90* to length of pipe (for all three runs)

 

At the end of the run on the "left" attach a "T", at the end of the center run attach a 45* elbow & run pipe to the "T". Bottom of the "T" gets pipe into the sump. The third run is just straight pipe to the fuge.

 

Return might be (given a mag12) -

 

Mag12 -> 3/4" female adaptor -> 3/4" PVC -> 3/4" female adaptor -> 3/4 barb adaptor -> 3/4" ID hose -> SCWD -> 3/4" ID hose -> 3/4" barb adaptor -> female adaptor -> 3/4" pvc -> 4 90* elbows (to make a U shape). Note: past the SCWD it's 2x, one for each leg of the run.

 

FYI - "de-burr" is smoothing out the inside of the pipe, sometimes after a cut the inside can require a bit of cleanup - removing the "burrs" inside.

 

If you go to Savko.com you can use the drop down lists to get a visual picture of most every PVC fitting.

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Some common PVC terms

<snip>

Man! Thanks for the great overview. I'll definitely use this as a reference.

 

At the end of the run on the "left" attach a "T", at the end of the center run attach a 45* elbow & run pipe to the "T". Bottom of the "T" gets pipe into the sump. The third run is just straight pipe to the fuge.

Somehow under the T the pipe has to grow to accomodate flow from both 1.5" pvc pipes right, or the water could back up?

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My answer would be "it depends". If you were running the pipes near capacity the answer would be yes, since you're not (given a 1.5" pipe can flow 1300gph - more than a mag 12 w/ zero head) there would be no need to up the pipe size.

 

However, for the sake of an FYI it would be simple. It would be "T" -> piece of pipe -> 1.5"/2" bushing -> 2" pipe

 

A bushing looks like a doughnut. The smaller pipe goes inside the inner hole & the whole thing slides into the larger pipe - it can be used to reduce or increase the size of piping.

 

(and no, I have no idea why they call a reducer a bushing :lol: Not sure anyone knows why)

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I had another thought with the sump design. Based on my calculations, if under normal operations the water level is just above the mag pump, I'm not going to be able to remove water without problems. So let's say I run the water higher... I'd still need to stay low enough so that any excess overflow from the main tank doesn't cause a flood.

 

So two things:

* Can't cause flood when power goes out

* Need to be able to remove water when doing water changes before adding water.

 

This is difficult, I think. a 6" by 24" by 18" area (about the size of my return area presently) is 11 gallons. I could add six inches (refugium shrinks by 11 gallons) and return area goes up to 22. That's closer to where I want to be, I think. But it also means running my water REALLY high in the return area.

 

Thoughts?

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Okay so I had the dimensions of the 90G wrong. It's 25" tall and 18" deep not the other way around -- duh.

 

Still, there are some problems with my design I think. Let's say I run the system at "full water capacity" -- that means the return area is 21" tall with water... a total of 11.5 gallons. That ain't enough. I can only take 9 gallons out before the mag drive has no water. That's not enough for a 10% water change.

 

So let's say I double the size of the return area. I make it 12x18x21. That's a total of 19.5 gallons. But now I need 4 gallons in there to keep the mag happy. No good. I can only take out 15 gallons.

 

And already my refugium part of the sump is very small!

 

Am I doing about this the wrong way? One option would be to run the skimmer external... but I'm not sure how well my CURRENT skimmer (berlin turbo) will do that and any skimmer I get later will probably need it done differently.

 

How can I accomplish taking 20 gallons out while still running the pump? I'm trying to make water changes as easy as possible (using only knobs)... but I'm not quite there yet.

 

Seems like to achieve my goals and allow for flexibility my skimmer area should be 8" wide. Then 5 inches for baffles. If I want to run my return area no more than 12" tall, say, then I need it to be 26" wide. That leaves me with a 13" wide refugium. For a 90 gallon sump I'd say that's unacceptable.

 

Okay... solutions?

 

- A longer sump tank

Trouble with this then is getting it under the 6 foot tank. My fish room's not THAT big that I can be moving 6 foot tanks around easily. And getting it in there after the stand's built will be a challenge.

 

- Put the return pump IN the refugium.

This means getting rid of the rightmost baffle and building a little box near or on the bottom of the refugium in which I would put the pump. This means a lot of circulation in the refugium.... ?

 

- Make the refugium "squishy"

Instead of using a SOLID baffle between the refugium and the return area, drill holes in it so that water CAN flow from the refugium into the return area above a certain height. This at least keeps the refugium from turning over quite as much...

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