DIY biopellets

[zygote2k]

Anyone have any nitrate reduction results to share using the PCL at this point?

 

My No3 has dropped from 40ppm to 16ppm over the course of the last 2 months of using PCL pellets in a mesh bag.

[davelin315]

So, from following this thread after missing the group buy I am thinking the following for my system:

 

1. I have nitrates through the roof, somewhere between 50-100ppm.

2. The RDSB has not dented the nitrates in the time that I have had it installed.

3. Bio-pellets are probably not a good idea due to the fact that the nitrates are so high and the bacteria could end up eating up all of the oxygen from the system and killing the fish.

4. Rice is not a good idea for the aforementioned reasons coupled with the fact that it has not been proven to work by the various people experimenting with it on RC.

 

So, is this a good idea for my system or a bad one given my fish load? My assumption is that it is not a good idea, but I'd love to resolve the nitrate issues I have.

[OldReefer]

I'd say the best approach with nitrates that high would be to start with a modest amount of pellets to limit the size of the bloom. Once you get past the initial bloom, you could increase the amount of pellets in the reactor.

 

Just a thought...

[Guest thefishman65]

Dave,

 

There is a second group buy going on for the generic pellets.

Second Group Buy

[ctenophore]

So, from following this thread after missing the group buy I am thinking the following for my system:

 

1. I have nitrates through the roof, somewhere between 50-100ppm.

2. The RDSB has not dented the nitrates in the time that I have had it installed.

3. Bio-pellets are probably not a good idea due to the fact that the nitrates are so high and the bacteria could end up eating up all of the oxygen from the system and killing the fish.

4. Rice is not a good idea for the aforementioned reasons coupled with the fact that it has not been proven to work by the various people experimenting with it on RC.

 

So, is this a good idea for my system or a bad one given my fish load? My assumption is that it is not a good idea, but I'd love to resolve the nitrate issues I have.

I think you would be fine as long as you have a backup aeration device on hand. Maybe a big air pump with a few limewood airstones in your sump. Or, run UV or Ozone to control free-floating bacteria. Be ready to empty your skimmer cup a lot for a while.

[Guest thefishman65]

Can one of you "experts" tell me/us how many liters of these pellets are in a kilogram?

 

Thanks

[Chad]

So, I have to say that this stuff really intrigues me, however, I have two reservations that I havent found a lot of info on and my gut is telling me to hold back... What do you all think?

 

First, my system is skimmerless (nitrates and phosphates are not measurable on normal kits). I have a big AquaC 400ev that is plumbed into the system and I can run it if necessary, but I like the cool stuff that grows in natural systems without skimmers. What are y'alls thoughts on polycaprolactone pellets without a skimmer?

 

Second, I am worried about my seahorses. I run my system with the needs and quirks of the seahorses in mind first, all other considerations are second. That being said, seahorses are particularly susceptible to bacterial infections, and anything that creates a situation where bacterial blooms could be a consequence causes alarm bells to go off in my dead. Do you all think I am overly worried on this one?

 

I am especially worried about bacterial blooms and the like without a skimmer running on a regular basis. Anyone besides Rob and me running a skimmerless system that can weigh in on this? (Rob, you can weigh in too if you want).

Edited August 12, 2010 by Chad

[zygote2k]

FWIW, I never experienced a bacterial bloom in my tank after using the pellets. All I did was rinse them and place them in a mesh bag in the heavy flow area of the sump. I dosed about a quart of MB7 over about a week then let nature take its' course.

[Chad]

Without a skimmer, what is the phosphate/nitrate reduction method with carbon dosing?

 

My understanding of carbon dosing is that the removal method is via removing bacteria after they have consumed nitrate and phosphate for biological needs... Hence, removing the bacteria = removing the nitrates and phosphates.

 

However, in a skimmerless system, I would assume that corals, worms/sponges, and various other detrivores would need to increase to take up this function. Hence turning nitrates and phosphates into biomass.

 

Does this seem accurate?

[bankyf]

Can one of you "experts" tell me/us how many liters of these pellets are in a kilogram?

 

Thanks

 

1 liter weighs .75kg

[Highland Reefer]

Ebay sells a PHA product: Mirel P1003

 

http://compare.ebay.com/like/400128687207?ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar

 

 

That's a great price: Mirel P1003 Injection Molding Grade Resin 55lbs Price: US $145.00

 

 

Mirel P1003 data sheet:

 

http://www.mirelplastics.com/imagesupl/Mirel_P1003data_standard_Aug09.pdf

 

 

 

 

[Guest thefishman65]

Is there an advantage of these over the polymorph? Other than price

[Origami]

Is there an advantage of these over the polymorph? Other than price

 

PHA is thought to be the same polymer used in the commercial product NP Biopellets.

 

PCL and PLA are other biodegradable plastic options that hobbyists are experimenting with. Polymorph is PCL, and is generally more available.

 

The price that Cliff posted is very good.

[Chad]

Without a skimmer, what is the phosphate/nitrate reduction method with carbon dosing?

 

My understanding of carbon dosing is that the removal method is via removing bacteria after they have consumed nitrate and phosphate for biological needs... Hence, removing the bacteria = removing the nitrates and phosphates.

 

However, in a skimmerless system, I would assume that corals, worms/sponges, and various other detrivores would need to increase to take up this function. Hence turning nitrates and phosphates into biomass.

 

Does this seem accurate?

 

I am sure there is a bioefficiency question that I am not taking into account here, anyone have thoughts?

[Highland Reefer]

Ebay sells a PHA product: Mirel P1003

 

http://compare.ebay....mTypes&var=sbar

 

 

That's a great price: Mirel P1003 Injection Molding Grade Resin 55lbs Price: US $145.00

 

 

Mirel P1003 data sheet:

 

http://www.mirelplas...ndard_Aug09.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't read the part on the right of the data sheet:

 

"Mirel P1003 consists of a proprietary blend of polyhydroxyalkanoate (PHA) based polymer, additives and mineral fillers."

 

I don't believe we would want to try this product, since it it a blend and has minerals. :(

 

Sorry.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Highland Reefer

[Origami]

Interesting, Cliff. But do we know what "additives and mineral fillers" are present and in what proportions they're present? Has anybody looked into this over at RC? It makes me wonder if most beads like this have such to facilitate fusion, mold release, or other factors critical to manufacturing.

 

Your data sheet source is different than mine. I saw this copy, listed as provisional, and specific to P1003-F1005 products:

http://www.mirelplastics.com/imagesupl/P1003_F1005%20Provisional%20Product%20Data%20sheet.pdf

 

No mention is made of these additions in that datasheet. But I do see them mentioned in their processing guide:

http://www.mirelplastics.com/imagesupl/InjectionMoldingProcessGuide-Standard-Final_July2010.pdf

 

Finally, the MSDS is rather useless for a determination of the composition:

http://www.mirelplastics.com/imagesupl/Mirel%201000%20Series-MSDS_Standard_Mar10.pdf

[Highland Reefer]

Tom,

 

All good points you have stated. This material may be safe, but there are unknowns based on what is presented in the data sheets, which don't provide the info we really need.

 

No one that I am aware of is using the Mirel products.

 

FWIW, posts regarding all the solid dosing polymers are showing mixed results when it comes to reducing nitrate in a reef tank. Those hobbyists that have low nitrate level seem to like them with good results. Those hobbyists with high nitrates like above 30 ppm, seem to be having problems reducing the nitrate without resorting to liquid carbon sources like vodka and vinegar. There is an alarming number of hobbyists who experience bacterial blooms while using the solid carbon sources sold the the hobby manufacturers. Perhaps starting with lower amounts of these carbon sources then recommended may help prevent bacterial blooms. Then slowly increase the amount used in reactors or filter bags. The hobbyists who have experienced bacterial blooms do not seem to have any problems with fish and coral, but I don't like the idea of bacterial blooms because of possbile dangers.

[Origami]

... There is an alarming number of hobbyists who experience bacterial blooms while using the solid carbon sources sold the the hobby manufacturers. Perhaps starting with lower amounts of these carbon sources then recommended may help prevent bacterial blooms. Then slowly increase the amount used in reactors or filter bags. The hobbyists who have experienced bacterial blooms do not seem to have any problems with fish and coral, but I don't like the idea of bacterial blooms because of possbile dangers.

 

I've not used any of the products or hobbyist substitutes, but isn't this the standard protocol (to start small - 1/2 of the required amount, I believe - and to build up the quantity a few weeks later) for these products? I agree that sudden bacterial blooms can result in a transient conditions that can be deadly. We've seen the same effect with overdosing liquid carbon sources such as vodka, vinegar, or sugar. I do have a bag (about 3 pounds) of PLA, but have done nothing with it.

 

I'm surprised that nobody's testing this stuff from Mirel. Initially, I believe there was speculation that the original N-P biopellets was really PHA from Mirel. That, I figured, would have had someone looking to get their hands on the stuff to try.

[Highland Reefer]

I've not used any of the products or hobbyist substitutes, but isn't this the standard protocol (to start small - 1/2 of the required amount, I believe - and to build up the quantity a few weeks later) for these products?

 

The directions for the BP Biopellets, I believe, state to use a certain amount per water volume. They don't provide much help on the label from what I understand. I have not seen the label. They do state to use enough flow through the reactor used to keep the Biopellets moving. I believe that some hobbyists have too much flow, which may cause problems. Enough flow should be used to keep the reactor basically aerobic & produce no sulfur odor.

 

I agree that hobbyists should start with a small amount and increase it slowly looking for signs of bacterial blooms. Most hobbyists want to see results within a month, which may not be the case if they have high nitrate levels. It takes time to reduce high nitrate levels safely IMHO. Once nitrate is dropped to a zero reading, I would assume that reducing the amount used to 1/2 the amount would be appropriate and work from there. This is what is recommended for vodka dosing.

 

Tom, if you decide to use the Mirel products, I would be interested in the results. I have not seen posts where you could buy the product until the above. Perhaps this is why hobbyists have not tried it.

 

 

 

 

[Origami]

I have not seen posts where you could buy the product until the above. Perhaps this is why hobbyists have not tried it.

 

That was my thinking. My attempts at trying to get a sample of Mirel was a dead end. I did convince a distributor to send me those few pounds of PLA that remain unused at this time.

[CHUBAKAH]

Anyone given this a try?Seems everyone is coming out with some sort of bio pellet.

[ctenophore]

Anyone given this a try?Seems everyone is coming out with some sort of bio pellet.

I may try it next to the PCL pellets to see which one is used up faster in my system. The only problem is that nutrients are really low, undetectable NO3 via salifert and undetectable PO4 via Hach/Deltec kit. The pellets don't seem to be dissolving nearly as fast (if at all) as they did in the experimental 40g tank, where half the pellets disappeared within 3 months.

 

I am curious to see if this media (assuming PHA) would be consumed faster than the PCL.

[ctenophore]

I didn't read the part on the right of the data sheet:

 

"Mirel P1003 consists of a proprietary blend of polyhydroxyalkanoate (PHA) based polymer, additives and mineral fillers."

 

I don't believe we would want to try this product, since it it a blend and has minerals. :(

 

Sorry.

 

I seem to recall one of the biopellet resellers talking about theirs being filled with 10% calcium carbonate or something similar. How many different Mirel PHA blends are there? I believe the "original" NP Biopellets are Mirel material.

[Origami]

That was what I was saying. The original speculation was that NP Biopellets are PHA but that their unavailability, compared to PCL kept hobbyists from working with them. I think that the datasheets that I've seen that mention these fillets were not product number specific. In that sense, they were not datasheets so much as a product summary.

 

Sent from my phone using Tapatalk.

[davelin315]

If all of you chemistry experts want to weigh in, I'd be willing to try these on my system since I've been having very little luck with my RDSB. I will test my nitrates again and see how the system works over the course of a few months. Here's a question for you, though, if skimming is what removes the stuff, would it be best to run the bio pellets off of a skimmer, or perhaps even in the skimmer itself in a loose bag or compartment? I have a Dan special in my system that runs off a herbie (think I'm getting the term right). If I have the tank drain directly through the pellets and then into the skimmer, wouldn't that help to reduce the nitrates more? I'm not sure of whether the theory behind the pellets is that you inundate your system with new bacteria or if you simply increase the bioload near the pellets. Of course, much of the free floating bacteria will spread throughout the tank regardless of location of the pellets, but if they exhaust straight into the skimmer, thereby removing as much as possible, would that work the best?