Boret March 19, 2009 Share March 19, 2009 (edited) I am in the market for a new skimmer. I currently have a GSA Shorty but I need something more powerful. Nowadays there a tons of new options and many seem pretty interesting. I have spent the last week or so going over as many threads as possible on Reef Central and instead of helping me decide all I have is many more questions. I was wondering if maybe I could get some input from you as to the different models available, at least the ones I narrowed it down to. My tank is a 92 with a 30g sump and eventually a 20g fuge. This gives a total of close to 150g. I will be heavily stocked with about 25 inches or more of fish and SPS intensive. These are some of the options, all of them bellow the $600 mark which is the upper limit I set myself. MSX/SWC Extreme 200 $289.99 8" diamter, 4" neck, sicce psk2500, 21w as a pinwheel or 35w or less as a meshweel. 700-1400lph air. Footprint of 10.5"x13" and is 23" tall. Needs 1/2" to take off collection cup. Comes with silencer, pw and meshwheel. Plug it in, adjust water height and let it skim. Performs best in 8-10" water. MSX/SWC Extreme 250 $419.99 10" diameter, 5.5" neck 24.75" high. Footprint of 16x16" Best performs at 8-10" water depth. Uses two sicce psk2500's. Comes with meshwheels and pw's. Wattage used is 42-70w depending on pw or meshwheel. Air pull is 1400-2800lph. MSX/SWC Extreme 300 $479.99 12" diameter, 5.5" neck diameter, 24.75" tall. Footprint is 13x17" needs to be in 8-10" water depth. Powered by two sicce psk2500's. Wattage is 42-70w and air pull is 1400-2800lph. You will receive the pinwheel and meshwheel impeller. Bubble-Magus BM160 Skimmer $284.95 Supplied with an German made Aquabee 2000/I pump and optimized pinwheel. Bubble Magus pinwheel draws more air than any other pinwheel skimmers at similiar wattages. High quality 5mm cast acrylic body for maximum durability. Dimensions: 12.20" x 9.5" x 23.6" (L*W*H) Cylinder diameter: 6" Neck diameter: 3.2" Pump: Aquabee 2000/I 115V Power Consumption: 20 KWH Air intake: 700 LPH Bubble-Magus BM260 Skimmer $449.99 Bubble-Magus BM260 skimmer is a recirculating skimmer with two Aquabee 2000/I pumps, designed for external or internal use. Dimensions: 19.1" x 12.40" x 27.95" (L*W*H) Cylinder diameter: 8" Neck diameter: 4" Pump: 2 x Aquabee 2000/I 115V Power Consumption: 40 KWH Air intake: 1400 LPH Reef Octopus DDNW-150 $399.95 - 6" Diameter - 28" Tall - Recirculating Pumps (included): 2 x Octopus OTP 2000 - - Requires additional feed pump with gph rating at approx. 1.5 times volume of your system. - Recommended for aquariums up to 300 gallons - Approx. Footprint 16.5" x 7.5" Reef Octopus DDNW 250 $599.95 - 10" Diameter - 30" Tall - Recirculating Pumps (included): 2 x Octopus OTP 3000, 65W, 790GPH. - - Requires additional feed pump with gph rating at approx. 1.5 times volume of your system. - Recommended for aquariums up to 650 gallons - Approx. Footprint 22.5" x 12.5" ATI Bubble Master 200 Protein Skimmer $549.95 Dimensions: 12.6" x 8.5" x 19.6" (L x W x H) Complete with collection cup, built-in gate valve to fine tune the skimmer's performance, air silencer and submersible ATI-Sicce pump. In-sump installation only. "Thread-Wheel" design and super efficient ATI-Sicce pump produce an extremely dense water/air mixture that outperforms much larger skimmers while consuming less electricity and transferring less heat to the aquarium. For every 3 parts of water the pump pulls in 2 parts air for an efficiency rating of approximately 67%. Most other skimmers on the market have an efficiency of less than 35%. AquaEuro PS-400 Needle Wheel $329.95 * Height: 23.90" * Diameter: 9.85" * Footprint: 16.3" x 14.5" * Pumps: 3 x NW EU590 Warner Marine R150 Recirculating $489.00 * Height: 26" * Body Diameter: 6" * Neck Diameter: 3.5" * Pump: Sedra 7000 Here are some of the thoughts about these skimmers and the different options: The ATI bm200 and MSX/SWC 200 are using the same pump except the MSX/SWC 200 is designed better. The ATI doesn't have as much dwell time and the large extended chamber on the inside acts like a foam cannon. The price for the ATI is nearly double. The skimmers with the sicce pump's must be ran internally, if you were to recirc the skimmer and run it external the pump's would burn up. If you must have external then the bubble magnus seems a great fit. Two aquabee pump's aren't going to be as good as two sicce pump's but for the price its the best recirc out there. The octopus 250dn has the junky pump's. OTP pump's fail often and do not pull great air #'s. The Aquaeuro is a massive skimmer with 3 pumps!! However the pumps are horrible, use up a lot of Watts and need to be replaced (they rust!!!). For $330 its a great deal for the body, but will have to spend another $150 to fit it with better pumps which puts it at $480. In Sump or Recirculating? I have little room, so In Sump makes sense, however, this type of skimmers are very sensitive to water level in the sump, it will "force" me to get a higher sump to have enough water level up to 10" for some of them, and enough for overflow. We are probably talking about 15+ inches of height in the sump. One advantage is not needing a pump to feed the skimmer. Recirculating skimmers get great reviews. More contact with the water allows for better skimming. I can place it wherever I want, and will allow me to have "other" things in the sump, like extra live rock. 1 or more pumps? 1 pump will use less watts, will be easier to do maintenance on. 2 or more pumps will improve performance and provide an extra layer of safety, if one fails for whatever reason you will keep skimming with the remaining pump/s. Is bigger better? Does it make much of a difference to have a bigger chamber and a bigger neck? With the MSX 300 I can have a "huge" skimmer with 2 pumps for less than the ATI BubbleMaster 200. Not to mention the Aquaeuro, that one is a monster with 3 pumps. The Bubble Magus,a copy of the Bubble Kings, seems a great deal for the a recirculating and the 260 version has a 8" chamber and 4" neck with 2 pumps. Same dimensions as the MSX200. The MSX has 1 pump and its in sump but it is "only" $290. As you can see there are too many options and all of them have strengths and weaknesses. I haven't even mention the new Cone skimmers from iTech. For about $500 I can get an iTech 200 with the new Tunze Hydrofoamer pump.... These get great reviews on ReefCentral but they are really new and there is no long term data. Any input or personal experiences are really appreciated. Edited March 19, 2009 by Boret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAGA March 19, 2009 Share March 19, 2009 Bubble King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leishman March 19, 2009 Share March 19, 2009 I'll sell my Deltec AP702 for $1200 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boret March 19, 2009 Author Share March 19, 2009 (edited) Bubble King I'll sell my Deltec AP702 for $1200 Maybe I need to emphasize my $600 upper limit? No opinion on the skimmers I posted above? Edited March 19, 2009 by Boret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L8 2 RISE March 19, 2009 Share March 19, 2009 bubble master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boret March 19, 2009 Author Share March 19, 2009 I really like the MSX/SWC Extreme 300..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boret March 19, 2009 Author Share March 19, 2009 (edited) Double post! Edited March 19, 2009 by Boret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM March 19, 2009 Share March 19, 2009 (edited) I have about the same water volume as you are going to have, 150 total gallons. I had the Octo Extreme 200 and had terrible luck with it. I sold it and got an ATI Bubblemaster 200 and it is great. I would highly recommend it. Edited March 19, 2009 by SteveM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelson_crn March 19, 2009 Share March 19, 2009 SteveM--I was looking to buy an octo extreme 200 for a very similar setup. What kind of problems did you have? I thought they were supposed to be a pretty decent skimmer (for the $$). Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the MSX and Octopus brands were the same thing. ??? Given your argument Boret I would probably go with Bubble-Magus BM260 Skimmer. It seems to have a lot of pros (other than the price) and if you can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDiver March 19, 2009 Share March 19, 2009 (edited) +1 on the Bubble Magus..read a lot of good things on them and apparently compares to a BK at a fraction of the cost..they previously had problems with the previous pump catching on fire but they've since fixed the problem..I plan on getting one for my next setup.. Edited March 19, 2009 by DDiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zygote2k March 20, 2009 Share March 20, 2009 Do yourself and your tank a favor. Scrap the idea of getting any of those skimmers and go with a way more reliable and efficient skimmer like an ASM. I have an ASM G1x on a heavily stocked 150 and it pulls tons of crap from the water. It is extremely easy to install, adjust, and operate. There are no issues with water levels in the sump affecting the performance either. As long as the pump is drawing water, it works. Parts and replacement pumps are readily available from many local pet stores. Cell cast acrylic, multiple pumps, mesh mods, etc. are just gimmicks that usually add to the cost and rarely add to the performance. I'll bet dollars to donuts the G1x will outperform any of those aforementioned skimmers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctenophore March 20, 2009 Share March 20, 2009 I'll bet dollars to donuts the G1x will outperform any of those aforementioned skimmers. I like ASM skimmers too, but those ones listed above are several generations newer and have many more refinements not found in the old ASM design. Whether or not Boret needs that much skimmer for 150 gal is certainly debatable, but every one of those skimmers listed above are more efficient than a G1x. The MSX look really nice for the price, that's what I'd get (the smaller one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDiver March 20, 2009 Share March 20, 2009 i'm running an ASM G3 right now and it does an incredible job at pulling out nasties...i couldn't be any happier with its performance.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boret March 20, 2009 Author Share March 20, 2009 Do yourself and your tank a favor. Scrap the idea of getting any of those skimmers and go with a way more reliable and efficient skimmer like an ASM.I have an ASM G1x on a heavily stocked 150 and it pulls tons of crap from the water. It is extremely easy to install, adjust, and operate. There are no issues with water levels in the sump affecting the performance either. As long as the pump is drawing water, it works. Parts and replacement pumps are readily available from many local pet stores. Cell cast acrylic, multiple pumps, mesh mods, etc. are just gimmicks that usually add to the cost and rarely add to the performance. I'll bet dollars to donuts the G1x will outperform any of those aforementioned skimmers. Something like this ASM G5 for $539.95 I like ASM skimmers too, but those ones listed above are several generations newer and have many more refinements not found in the old ASM design. Whether or not Boret needs that much skimmer for 150 gal is certainly debatable, but every one of those skimmers listed above are more efficient than a G1x. The MSX look really nice for the price, that's what I'd get (the smaller one). The smaller one you mean the 200 or the 250? For less than $600 I can get the 300 which is a monster and gets great reviews.... I am curious about the point you raise about going "too big". I thought there wasn't such a thing as overskimming... Am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami March 20, 2009 Share March 20, 2009 (edited) Boret, the numbers look really nice on that MSX 250 (close to 50-100 SCFM of air, though I haven't any idea of what kind of contact time you'll get).... Some of the user feedback I've seen make it out to be very good. I have no personal experience with it, however. If you do wind up with one, be sure to post a review. Get some pics of it in action, too, over several days so we can see what kind and how much gunk it pulls out. Edited March 20, 2009 by Origami2547 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctenophore March 20, 2009 Share March 20, 2009 The smaller one you mean the 200 or the 250? For less than $600 I can get the 300 which is a monster and gets great reviews....I am curious about the point you raise about going "too big". I thought there wasn't such a thing as overskimming... Am I wrong? The smallest one you listed, the 200 I guess. I would buy the one that is easiest to maintain, whether that is pump maintenance, cup removal, physical dimensions (is it hard to get to under your stand, etc). The most efficient skimmer is one that gets maintained the best. I don't think you can overskim, but at some point you really get into diminishing returns. Sure you can drive a F-350 dually pickup to your desk job every day, it gets you there but is it overkill for the job? Yes. I don't think you need anything more than that smallest skimmer above to maintain a healthy high bioload 92 gallon tank, and even the skimmer you have is certainly capable of doing the job. Honestly I'm not sure why you think you need a new one. If you are having water quality problems, perhaps look at other factors of tank maintenance like food amount & composition, water flow patterns and rock structure, etc. Throwing equipment at a problem (real or imagined) doesn't always work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Origami March 20, 2009 Share March 20, 2009 Boret, the numbers look really nice on that MSX 250 (close to 50-100 SCFM of air, though I haven't any idea of what kind of contact time you'll get).... Some of the user feedback I've seen make it out to be very good. I have no personal experience with it, however. If you do wind up with one, be sure to post a review. Get some pics of it in action, too, over several days so we can see what kind and how much gunk it pulls out. !! I meant SCFH. It'd be a geyser otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM March 20, 2009 Share March 20, 2009 SteveM--I was looking to buy an octo extreme 200 for a very similar setup. What kind of problems did you have? I thought they were supposed to be a pretty decent skimmer (for the $$). Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the MSX and Octopus brands were the same thing. ??? I believe the Octopus and MSX are the same skimmer. For whatever reason, I could not get the skimmer to work correctly. After several months of trying to fix it over the phone with customer support, they finally had me send the pump back to them. The problem was that it kept overflowing the skimmer cup. It would work great for 2-3 days and start collecting a lot of waste in the cup and then out of nowhere it would overflow sending all the waste back into my system. Apparently the needle wheel inside the pump was out of round and causing the problem, but even after getting the fixed pump back I could never get it to work well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boret March 20, 2009 Author Share March 20, 2009 The smallest one you listed, the 200 I guess. I would buy the one that is easiest to maintain, whether that is pump maintenance, cup removal, physical dimensions (is it hard to get to under your stand, etc). The most efficient skimmer is one that gets maintained the best. I don't think you can overskim, but at some point you really get into diminishing returns. Sure you can drive a F-350 dually pickup to your desk job every day, it gets you there but is it overkill for the job? Yes. I don't think you need anything more than that smallest skimmer above to maintain a healthy high bioload 92 gallon tank, and even the skimmer you have is certainly capable of doing the job. Honestly I'm not sure why you think you need a new one. If you are having water quality problems, perhaps look at other factors of tank maintenance like food amount & composition, water flow patterns and rock structure, etc. Throwing equipment at a problem (real or imagined) doesn't always work. Thanks for the explanation. I don't have water quality problems. As a mater of fact it is a brand new setup with established live rock, new sand seeded with old live sand and brand new water. Parameters, to the best of my abilities and the correctness of my test kits, is great. I am limited in the space available that is why I setup the 92. Total volume, after I am done, should be around 150, even more if I can squize a fuge undernith the stairs!!!. I am probably getting carried away with the "big" skimmers, but so far I have had low end equipment and I wanted to step up a bit. It will eventually be a heavily stocked SPS intensive tank. I feel ready to acquire the nice (expensive) corals and I don't want the skimmer or any other part of the equipment to be the reason for livestock loses. As far as water flow, I think I have a pretty good design. This is the picture of the Close Loop that is powered by a LittleGiant 4 that goes into an OceanMotions 4. I have water movement everywhere, even behind the rocks in the far end corner. I have been dialing the water flow for the last few weeks because it was actually creating cloudiness in the tank because of the sugar fine sand. The main return, a Mag 9.5 that I will eventually upgrade to a Mag 12 , feeds a SeaSwirl and I even placed a Koralia inside the tank on the left top corner to increase flow even more. That powerhead I will remove once I am satisfied with the final placement of the loc-lines off the Close Loop. A few days back I figure out that the output sending water in the back corner was the one moving the sand and producing the cloudiness, for the last few days it looks pretty clear. I can see your analogy with the pick up truck. Somehow, I know I will manage to get the wrong skimmer.... I always do, but there is a bit of hope that this time around I will get the right one. Thanks, B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boret March 20, 2009 Author Share March 20, 2009 You might be able to see the CL design better in these pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boret March 20, 2009 Author Share March 20, 2009 This is how I started a week ago This is what it looks now without so much rock and with a bunch of corals out as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gioNVA March 20, 2009 Share March 20, 2009 I ran the MSX 200 skimmer (mesh modded) on my ~200g setup. This would be perfect for your tank. The trick with these skimmers or any other ones that use the Sicce or Askoll is that the outlet of the skimmer needs to be above the water by a little bit (not fully submerged). From what I understand, if the outlet is fully submerged, an air pocket develops in the outlet pipe over time and it restricts the output flow. This maybe related to why it would work fine for 2 days and then overflow all of a sudden. Here's what the MSX200 would pull in less than 24 hours in my system: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbuf March 20, 2009 Share March 20, 2009 I've known many people in wamas who had the Bubble Master skimmers and didn't like them. If I recall correctly, BRK had one on one of their systems and ended up getting rid of it. I remember them saying they had issues with consistency with them. I used one of the recirculating Octopus skimmers on my Mom's tank, and it worked pretty well for the price. Only reason I sold it was because I got a crazy deal on a Deltec ap600. Can't comment on the longevity of the pumps/skimmer since I only used it for maybe 6 months. I'd certainly try one again though after the experience I had with them. I've used ASM skimmers and they do work pretty well. I've had a ASM 3, 4, and a 5 on my old 180gal. They do work pretty well, but the pumps aren't the greatest. I ended up modding the G5 and made the pumps into recirculating pump, and fed the skimmer with another pump. I saw a HUGE difference in skimmate production. Nothing else changed in the tank. Same fish, livestock, etc,. After the skimmer was modded, it produced more and darker skimmate. That is a big reason why I will never ever buy a none recirculating skimmer again. The bubble producing pumps stay cleaner longer. The first time I cleaned the pumps on the ASM there was snail shells and other crap stuck in between the pins on the needlewheel. That has to cut down on the efficiency of the needlewheel. I've never had that problem with any of my recirculating skimmers. I usually feed my recirculating skimmers with a maxijet that has the slotted plastic cap, to make sure no large particles get inside the main body of the skimmer to clog up the needlewheel. It has worked for me thus far. I like to think I've been around the block in regards to skimmers. Prizm, Red Sea Berlin, ETSS downdraft, ASM, Euroreef, Octopus, Deltec, Grey Seas, DAS, AquaC, Tunze, and Reeflo Orca. I personally think the most important aspects of the skimmer are the quality of the pump, and the recirculating design. My old Deltec 851 and old Grey Seas both used Eheim pumps, and both worked incredible. Both were also recirculating. The Deltec I have on my Mom's tank (AP600) uses an aquabee pump and it is an incredible skimmer. That little skimmer probably pulls out the nastiest skimmate I've ever had, nastier than my other Deltec and the Grey Seas even. Yes, I'm sure minor tweaks in the needlewheel design might account for a small fraction of difference in bubble production, such as between the ASM and Deltec needlewheels, but I still think the overall quality of the pump and the recirculating design have more of an impact on overall quality of the skimmer. I firmly believe that you'd get better production out of the ASM skimmers if they had Eheim pumps on them instead of the Sedra pumps. The bubble production is out of this world from the Sequence pump I have on my Orca 250 I'm running right now. Best ever. I wish I had some experience on the Bubble-magus skimmers. The one for $450 looks pretty good, and they are using Aquabee pumps. Of the skimmers you have listed, I would probably go with the Bubble-magus skimmer with the dual aquabee pumps, or go with a recirculating Octopus skimmer. You could always hold out for a good used skimmer to come along too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyBackm March 20, 2009 Share March 20, 2009 I have an MSX 200 on my 120 SPS tank--it's an outstanding skimmer, plug and play. Highly recommended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boret March 20, 2009 Author Share March 20, 2009 Great input guys!!! Very informative James! Thanks buddy! It is always a tough decision to get a skimmer. So many opinions... but it is great to be able to feed from all the information that you guys are providing! Keep it coming!! I am in between the Bubble Magus and the SWC300, its a monster!!! if it doesn't skim I could always use it as a washer!! lol The only concern with the BM is that they come from China and support is very weak to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now