temperature/allelopathy tolerance of elegance corals

[astroboy]

Hello!

 

About six weeks ago I bought an Aussie elegance coral, and while it seems to be healthy and eats everything it just won't open up very much at all. I had an elegance that died from the standard mystery disease a year ago, and I don't think my present elegance has that.

 

My tank is at 83 degrees. Is that too warm?

 

Also, I had a leather toadstool coral which I put into another tank a month ago and did 3 30% water changes, thinking that there might be some allelopathic problem, but that doesn't seem to have made any difference. Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this? If there was an allelopathic problem, how long would it take something like an elegance to clean the poison out of its system? Assuming that would happen....

 

The current where I have the elegance placed is fairly low; it seems ideal for the frogspawn nearby. I've tried upping the current a bit but that doesn't seem to make any difference either. Do elegances need more current than I'm thinking?

 

Thanks for any thoughts.

 

Mark

 

75 gallons, 360 watts compact fluorescent,100 lbs live rock

pH 7.9-8.1

temp: 83 degrees, sometimes a bit higher

KH: 3-4 dkH

Ca: 350-400

Mg: 1200

N03: zip

 

Inhabitants:

2 clowns

2 cleaner shrimp

large pearl

medium frogspawn

lots of mushrooms

1 duncan

1 montipora

2 acropora

alot of zoo's

3 torches

1 hammer

1 chalice

 

The tank's been running for 18 months, except for the elegance everything is doing great.

[vaironman]

83 is hot. Try to use a chiller or put a fan on top of your sump (if has one) or on top of your tank to help cool the tank.

 

Good range of water temperature is to keep it constant and the range is: 76 - 80. 76-77 will keep the fish more less suseptible to disease, 78-80 is nice warmer water for the coral, I believe.

[Freezerburn]

I had a elegance coral that didn't open up fully for 5 weeks. after that the thing opened right up. think I had my water around 78 it was in my 29G sps tank with 250W MH.

[vaironman]

Wetwebmedia.com

 

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/elegance.htm

[Highland Reefer]

Wetwebmedia.com

 

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/elegance.htm

 

Amazing, great article.

Edited May 9, 2008 by Highland Reefer

[Mark Quigley]

Thanks for the information. I checked the temperature of my tank and it was reaching 87 at the end of the days when the weather was on the warm side last week. That is a bit toasty, I suppose, especially since the temperatures were only getting down to about 84-85 overnight.

 

I've got a couple small computer fans blowing on the sump and the temperature is now 79-81 for the past two days. The elegance is opening up a bit more, and some fuzzy mushrooms have expanded more than they have in the past. I'm buying a bigger fan tomorrow at Radio Shack and that should knock the temperature down a 1-2 degrees more, hopefully with good results.

 

I won't say I'm out of the woods yet by any means, but unquestionably this has been a step in the right direction.

 

Mark

 

 

83 is hot. Try to use a chiller or put a fan on top of your sump (if has one) or on top of your tank to help cool the tank.

 

Good range of water temperature is to keep it constant and the range is: 76 - 80. 76-77 will keep the fish more less suseptible to disease, 78-80 is nice warmer water for the coral, I believe.

[astroboy]

Thanks for the information. I checked the temperature of my tank and it was reaching 87 at the end of the days when the weather was on the warm side last week. That is a bit toasty, I suppose, especially since the temperatures were only getting down to about 84-85 overnight.

 

I've got a couple small computer fans blowing on the sump and the temperature is now 79-81 for the past two days. The elegance is opening up a bit more, and some fuzzy mushrooms have expanded more than they have in the past. I'm buying a bigger fan tomorrow at Radio Shack and that should knock the temperature down a 1-2 degrees more, hopefully with good results.

 

I won't say I'm out of the woods yet by any means, but unquestionably this has been a step in the right direction.

 

Mark

 

Interesting results: The fans lowered the temperature of my main tank (75 gallons) to about 78-80 degrees, and the elegance opened up to some degree, but never all the way and the tentacles in particle remained retracted. Not good.

 

I finally decided to move it to my 30 gallon where it opened up dramatically over a period of 4-5 days. The only significant different between the two tanks as regards flora, lighting, local current and water parameters is that the original tank had alot of starburst polyps.

 

Has anyone ever heard of an allelopathic problem between elegances and starburst polyps?

[phisigs79]

with temps up to 87 your lucky anything at all made it. I say its the temp that caused a problem with your elegance.

[astroboy]

with temps up to 87 your lucky anything at all made it. I say its the temp that caused a problem with your elegance.

 

I seem to recall some discussion, probably by Eric Bourneman, where he measured temps into the upper 80s in reefs during the day, dropping a few degrees in the night, and figured mid-upper 80s were OK over long periods of time as long as the temps changed slowly. Not sure if I believe that, nor am I tempted to experiment with my tank. I'm glad its cooler now and I'm grateful for the advice.

 

Let me state the situation with the elegance more precisely:

 

The elegance didn't open up hardly at all for three weeks, with temperatures ranging from 83 at night to as much as 87 on some hot days. It ate anything that came its way and seemed healthy (for the time being, at least) otherwise.

 

After lowering the temp to 78-70 degrees for two weeks it opened only a little more. I then moved it to a smaller tank with the same light & water parameters and fauna, except this tank usually runs around 84 degrees. Its only 30 gallons, no sump, so its hard to cool with fans. The larger tank has alot of starburst polyps, the smaller tank has none.

 

After two days the elegance really started to open up, and has looked better every day since (one week). A rather dramatic change.

 

The only real difference I can see is the presence of the starbust polyps or lack thereof. I was wondering if anyone has ever heard of any allelopathic problems between starbursts and (Australian) elegances. From my reading I had the impression starbusts were fairly innocuous, although I suppose with alot of them the overall levels of the compounds they secrete might accumulate over time to where they might be a problem for some other corals. I'll note that I was very good with water changes and activated charcoal and chemi-pure with the original tank, so if allelopathy was the problem it was occuring at fairly low levels, I'm imagine.

 

Of course, the change in the elegance could be coincidence or due to some other cause. I just thought I'm ask if anyone had any ideas and just make the observation about the starbursts, for what its worth.

[astroboy]

Just to make an end to the story, I was out of town for a couple weeks, leaving the care of the tank to a friend, and when I returned the elegance had died.

 

I had been running fans which kept the temperature at about 78-80 degrees; other water parameters were pretty good. I had been using chemipure, which looking back had outlived its useful life: the water tended to have a very faint tinge from time to time. All the other corals I had did OK while I was away, a few had noticeably grown.

 

It could well be that the high temperatures earlier in this saga damaged the coral to the point where the slight degradation in conditions, such as alot of RODI water being poured directly in all at once, were enough to tip the scales.

 

Thanks for the info on all this. Using fans I was able to lower the temperature of both my tanks and the corals I have which weren't looking 100% definitely perked up. Except the elegance. Oh well....

[DDiver]

if you are worried about alleopathy then try running some carbon or polyfilter..

[ctenophore]

You mentioned that you kept one of the infected Indo elegance corals in the tank previously. The current theory is that the pathogen that affects elegance corals will remain in a system indefinitely, so most likely it infected the Aussie elegance, causing it's eventual demise.

[Amuze]

I've read if the pathogen doesn't have a host, it will not survive. So if it's been a while since he's had his first elegance, he should be fine. Those temps however are not fine. Elegance coral also requires a high 02 level in the water. If you're tank is over stocked for it's size, this may be or become a problem. They react very poorly if there is not enough 02 to suit their needs. You could try feeding it some mysis also. Mine retracted from lack of 02 when I my return pump failed. It never came back and started to die off, so I removed it. They are nasty when they die off and I didn't want that "soup" going into my water.

[astroboy]

I've read if the pathogen doesn't have a host, it will not survive. So if it's been a while since he's had his first elegance, he should be fine. Those temps however are not fine. Elegance coral also requires a high 02 level in the water. If you're tank is over stocked for it's size, this may be or become a problem. They react very poorly if there is not enough 02 to suit their needs. You could try feeding it some mysis also. Mine retracted from lack of 02 when I my return pump failed. It never came back and started to die off, so I removed it. They are nasty when they die off and I didn't want that "soup" going into my water.

 

 

I tested the oxygen in both the tanks I had the elegance in and the water was well oxygenated, even when the temperatures were around 87; I don't recall the exact numbers. My guess is that the high temps stressed the elegance to the point that the neglect while I was out of town, such as variations in water level/salinity, lack of feeding, etc., put it over the edge.

 

Still I do wonder if alleopathy of some sort didn't have something to do with it also.....

[traveller7]

I've read if the pathogen doesn't have a host, it will not survive.

As one of my favorite corals, I try to keep up with the new data. Have a link to conclusive evidence on host base survival needs?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Amuze]

As one of my favorite corals, I try to keep up with the new data. Have a link to conclusive evidence on host base survival needs?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Well, it is more of an educated guess than anything "conclusive", but here's is the section taken from this article by Eric Borneman which explains it. This is the article http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-01/eb/index.php

 

I am sure you have read it if you readily research information on this coral.

 

"Contagion and Theory

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Based on epizootiological, field, laboratory and aquarium studies to date, I can offer a tentative explanation of the recent history of Catalaphyllia in the trade. Early in the history of reef aquariums, Catalaphyllia were probably more common than they are today in patchy distributions in shallow, easy-to-collect-from areas. Over a period of approximately 10 years, these areas were probably overexploited and collectors moved to different and more marginal areas, including nearshore areas with higher pollution and lower water quality. Although pathogens affecting Catalaphyllia are unknown and diseased specimens appear rarely in the field, some specimens affected with ECS may have been introduced into exporters' facilities. Exporters, wholesalers and often retailers tend to keep the same species in the same tanks. A highly infectious waterborne disease that affects a single species would be expected to have ample and multiple opportunities to expose and infect healthy colonies before reaching the end users. The disease takes several weeks or months to finally kill the colony, and this time period coincides with aquarists' reports. The tissues' histology and appearance indicate that at least one, and possibly two, types of microorganisms are involved: one occurs as widely dispersed eosinophyllic bacterial aggregates that appear to be involved in disrupting cellular architecture and granulation of nematocysts; the other appears to be frequently present as green-staining rods affecting the zooxanthellae. In late disease stages, secondary opportunistic invasion occurs, including ciliates and other bacteria.

 

It is interesting that over the past year, more and more healthy appearing Catalaphyllia specimens are being found in stores, including those recently collected in Australia. The demand for this coral dropped because of its reputation for poor survival in tanks. Without a host

[ctenophore]

I've read if the pathogen doesn't have a host, it will not survive. So if it's been a while since he's had his first elegance, he should be fine. Those temps however are not fine. Elegance coral also requires a high 02 level in the water. If you're tank is over stocked for it's size, this may be or become a problem. They react very poorly if there is not enough 02 to suit their needs. You could try feeding it some mysis also. Mine retracted from lack of 02 when I my return pump failed. It never came back and started to die off, so I removed it. They are nasty when they die off and I didn't want that "soup" going into my water.

How much higher O2 than other corals? Elegance come from calm, warm water such as grass flats, which suggest the reverse is true- they can tolerate lower O2 levels than e.g., stony reef-crest corals. Did you measure O2 levels before and after your pump failure? How do you know that yours died due to low O2?

 

Re: pathogen. There are examples of pathogens that can survive without a specific host for quite a while. Monti nudibranchs come to mind, as they can live off photosynthesis byproducts of zooxanthellae from their hosts incorporated into their tissues for up to a year. It is very possible that whatever causes elegance disease is capable of surviving without an elegance, perhaps even on other corals- it may simply not kill those other species it lives on.

 

Since nobody has conclusive evidence yet, the best we can go on is anecdotes. The ones I've heard suggest that once you introduce the pathogen, you're pretty much done keeping elegance in that system. It may be fine after 2-3 years or something, but considering how much change the average tank undergoes in that time frame, it's essentially "forever".

[Amuze]

How much higher O2 than other corals? Elegance come from calm, warm water such as grass flats, which suggest the reverse is true- they can tolerate lower O2 levels than e.g., stony reef-crest corals. Did you measure O2 levels before and after your pump failure? How do you know that yours died due to low O2?

 

Re: pathogen. There are examples of pathogens that can survive without a specific host for quite a while. Monti nudibranchs come to mind, as they can live off photosynthesis byproducts of zooxanthellae from their hosts incorporated into their tissues for up to a year. It is very possible that whatever causes elegance disease is capable of surviving without an elegance, perhaps even on other corals- it may simply not kill those other species it lives on.

 

Since nobody has conclusive evidence yet, the best we can go on is anecdotes. The ones I've heard suggest that once you introduce the pathogen, you're pretty much done keeping elegance in that system. It may be fine after 2-3 years or something, but considering how much change the average tank undergoes in that time frame, it's essentially "forever".

 

 

Eh, All I know is my pump was not working properly for a few days (possibly a week) and the only thing that died or stressed was the elegance. I keep frogspawn and torch in my tank also and they were not affected. So I'm just saying what my experience was. It was a very healthy aussie coral before the failure. I only noticed when I went to do a water change that the pump wasn't working. (Mad at myself for that)

 

When I first started reading about elegance, the first things I read were that these corals require an ample supply of 02 to do well (and no, I don't believe every single little thing I read). Elegance come from a few different places. Some are from deep water also.

 

What has your personal experience been with keeping elegance coral? Mine started out great and ended poorly very fast. It is one of my favorite corals, but I won't be keeping one again. At least not any time soon.

Edited August 28, 2008 by audible

[ctenophore]

Eh, All I know is my pump was not working properly for a few days (possibly a week) and the only thing that died or stressed was the elegance. I keep frogspawn and torch in my tank also and they were not affected. So I'm just saying what my experience was. It was a very healthy aussie coral before the failure. I only noticed when I went to do a water change that the pump wasn't working. (Mad at myself for that)

 

When I first started reading about elegance, the first things I read were that these corals require an ample supply of 02 to do well (and no, I don't believe every single little thing I read). Elegance come from a few different places. Some are from deep water also.

 

What has your personal experience been with keeping elegance coral? Mine started out great and ended poorly very fast. It is one of my favorite corals, but I won't be keeping one again. At least not any time soon.

My first one was back in ~1992 and did great. One of the hardiest corals in the tank. I got rid of it when I went off to school. After that, I had probably two or three in 2000-2002, which did fairly well. I lost them in a major tank crash 2002. I didn't get a new one until probably 04, which promptly died from the elegance disease, followed by several more over the next few years. I haven't had one in my display tank since, but I do have one in FL awaiting propagation. You may be right on about O2 levels, but the healthy ones I've had I found to be remarkably resilient compared to even other LPS. Certainly more tolerant of poor conditions than acros.

[Amuze]

My first one was back in ~1992 and did great. One of the hardiest corals in the tank. I got rid of it when I went off to school. After that, I had probably two or three in 2000-2002, which did fairly well. I lost them in a major tank crash 2002. I didn't get a new one until probably 04, which promptly died from the elegance disease, followed by several more over the next few years. I haven't had one in my display tank since, but I do have one in FL awaiting propagation. You may be right on about O2 levels, but the healthy ones I've had I found to be remarkably resilient compared to even other LPS. Certainly more tolerant of poor conditions than acros.

 

That's cool. Post pics when your new one comes in. It's just odd that my sps are all doing great, but yet the elegance went south so fast... Either way, it was one of my favorites as well. I might give it a go and add one at a later time, but we shall see. Room has become a factor now and I'm going for an almost all sps tank.

Edited August 29, 2008 by audible