bcjm January 28, 2003 Share January 28, 2003 1. How does the low PH out water from the reaction chamber affect the PH in the main tank? 2. Isn't the ca reactor almost the same as a fluidized bed filter? It fluidized bed filter is a no no why it is OK to use the ca reactor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Grenier January 28, 2003 Share January 28, 2003 No expert here but a fluidized bed is a biological filter and a calcium reactor is to maintain calcium levels; very different. The media in a fluidized bed are to allow a large amount of surface area to be exposed to a large amount of circulation(oxygen) to allow for a thriving community of denitrifying bacteria. The media in a calcium reactor is supposed to slowly disolve wit the help of a low pH C02 addition and release calcium into the tank. Hopefully some folks can better explain the calcium reactor side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pez January 28, 2003 Share January 28, 2003 Larry is correct. A fluidized bed filter is used for biological filtration only. A Ca reactor is used to supplement Ca and Alakalinity by dissolving CaCO3 based material using CO2. The CO2 lowers the pH in the chamber, causing the material to dissolve. The "liquid" is very high in Ca and CaCO3, which added Ca++ and alkalinity to the tank. However, the effluent coming out of the reactor is high in CO2 and low in pH. So a lot of effluent in the tank will lower the tank's pH dramatically. -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcjm January 28, 2003 Author Share January 28, 2003 I understand the difference between the two. Maybe I should be more clear. Isn't the ca reactor is acting just like a fluidized filter other than producing ca? Bacteria grows on the substrates and the tank water runs through them. Anything bad about the fluidized bed filter should apply to the ca reactor also. About the PH, doesn't the ca reactor water lower the PH in the tank? It seems that we are lowering the tank PH and adding a nitrate factory (fluidized bed filter) by using the reactor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Grenier January 28, 2003 Share January 28, 2003 Calcium Reactor - Water slowly runs from the tap to the RO unit to the reactor and into the tank or sump. Fluidized bed - Tank water circulated from tank to filter to tank and so-on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcjm January 28, 2003 Author Share January 28, 2003 I see. So the ca reactor is on only when the water evaporates to a certain level like the water make-up system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Grenier January 28, 2003 Share January 28, 2003 Yup :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kimo January 28, 2003 Share January 28, 2003 Wait a minute - That sounds more like a Kalkwasser reactor...A calcium reactor is fed by a powerhead/pump and has a fairly low flow rate in and out, but it is circulated within the reactor by the circulation pump. It should be constantly running, not just when evap brings the water level down. The idea is to enrich you TANK water with calcium and buffer, not your make up water. Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cbo January 28, 2003 Share January 28, 2003 And maybe more importantly for your question(bcjm), is that the water in a Ca reactor is pure and not tank water. In otherwords it does not contain the food required by the bacteria that colonize a fludized bed filter. I see from kimo's reply that he circulates tank water through his Ca reactor, so maybe I am mistaken. cbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelg January 28, 2003 Share January 28, 2003 No- not pure water by any means- same as where it is being drawn from. Couple things here that I suspect make a big difference and why you don't see a nitrate spike associated with running a calcium reactor (not a kalk reactor that larry so well described). First, the water input into the reactor is minimal- even at full output, the amount of water going through there is relatively small. There is a fair amount of turnover, but it is from re-circulation of the internal water, not from new water entering. The fluidizing effect is seen in bottom up reactors such as mine- principle is the same, increased contact with the surface, as more surface area is exposed. Second, you have an oxygen poor environment and excessive amount of CO2- very different from a FB filter. Not sure of pH at contact point with substrate where the substrate is being dissolved, likely less than ideal for nitrosomas, but to be honest I don't know. Third, the substrate is constantly dissolving. Yes I imagaine that there are some bacteria on it, but given the above 3 factors, it is essentially neglible in the affect it has on water quality. Hope that helps a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Grenier January 28, 2003 Share January 28, 2003 Ok ok ok fine. The main point is that either reactor is for replacing evaporated water with calcium-rich and buffered makeup water. However, the fluidized bed works on the same principal as the sponge in a powerfilter but suposidly more efficient; but of-course our live-rock and DSB does the work instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JFish January 28, 2003 Share January 28, 2003 Actually no...That is the point KIMO was trying to point out. A CALCIUM Reactor is used in this manner: 1. pump from tank pushes water into the unit at a few drops a second. 2. water in the calcium reactor is circulated within the unit to increase contact time between CO² and calcium medium. 3. The high in calcium water is then returned to the tank at the same rate new water, from the tank, is being pushed into the calcium reactor. ***This is run 24/7 and has nothing to do with make up water...it is simply adding calcium to the water that the corals are taking out of the water to then grow*** A Kalkwasser is used in this manner (I believe): 1. Water enters the reactor from a fresh supply of FRESH make up/top off water from a resevoir of some sort. 2. The water is mixed within the reactor via a stirring method or recirculation pump. 3. As the water in the sump of the tank lowers a float valve then uses this kalkwasser rich water to make up for the evaporation loss. Only in the first method can what BCJM happen because it is recirculating with TANK water. It can act as a "nitrAte factory" but I suspect at such a small amount of water being pumped through the media at a time...again, drops/second...that any nitrAte returning to the tank would be quickly taken out of the water by means of a DSB or mAcro algae using it as fertilizer. I don't really see any reason to worry about this...with a fluidized bed filter you are in effect (without the CO² injection) running the same thing as the calcium reactor but you're pumping a lot more water through it making denitrification work much better and much faster, meaning the end product is then a lot of nitrAtes. I don't believe in any healthy system that a denitrification filter would really do any harm to a tank and certainly if you have a DSB and a good supply of Macro algae then you most likely wouldn't even see a nitrAte spike even with added biological filtration... This nitrate factory stuff kind of gets to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Grenier January 29, 2003 Share January 29, 2003 Well bust my freekin britches... how embarrasing!:( I thought that the source water for a calcium reactor was fresh water and not from the tank just like a kalkwasser reactor. Do they always work that way? What pump do you use to supply the slow input to the calcium reactor from the tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelg January 29, 2003 Share January 29, 2003 I use a small maxijet. On plumbing the next tank I will probably use a T that has 3/4" on the straight sides and a small nipple for water to the reactor on the other. It doesn't need to be strong. Yes- calcium reactors are always done this way. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatortailale January 29, 2003 Share January 29, 2003 I use a Maxi-jet 900 to feed my calcium reactor (it's in the sump and runs 24/7) I have a MJ 600 on the reactor (dual chamber coralhound) for recirculation. Effluent drip is about 65 - 70 ml per min with about 80-90 bubbles /min of co2 [at least that is where I set the sucker last week and I have seen tank ph go up a lot - was running at 110 ml drip and 90-100 bubbles and I think it was just blowing the co2 through to fast and lowering tank PH] PH out of 2nd chamber effluent drip the other day was 6.72. Will try to test alk tonight out of effluent and post results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatortailale January 30, 2003 Share January 30, 2003 Got these Alk #'s last night at 10:30 pm tank - 11.2 dkh effluent drip - 23.8 [bubble of 80-90/min and 70 ml/min with koralith] Week prior I was at tank 8.4 effluent - 14 [110 ml drip and 90-105 bubbles ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquariareview January 30, 2003 Share January 30, 2003 Has anyone here tried using a fluidized bed filter with aragonite sand instead of silica. I have a friend in Florida who has been. He says it breaks down fast and really buffers the calcium levels well. he told me that he has to replace about 20% of his sand every 6 weeks. He is not driving the chamber hard enough to blow the sand out of the system, so the only place it can go is to break down and feed its elements into the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Grenier January 30, 2003 Share January 30, 2003 That sounds too good to be true. That would make calcium reactors obsolete. Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgasmd January 30, 2003 Share January 30, 2003 Has anyone here tried using a fluidized bed filter with aragonite sand instead of silica. I have a friend in Florida who has been. He says it breaks down fast and really buffers the calcium levels well. he told me that he has to replace about 20% of his sand every 6 weeks. Can and will happen, but too slow to make stable changes. I have read of people in RC that will palce about 20 Lb of aragonite sand or crushed coral in their sumps and it dissolves half by the end of the year. It is just not enough by any means!! I believe there was a thread in RC not too long ago about aming reactors with fluidized beds instead of the coarser media to amke it dissolve easier and faster. The trhing is that the guy that tried it reported he saw no benefit whatsoever from doing this. The only valid point would be to make it more efficient, but since the CO2 and the aragonite or crushed coral is so darn cheap, it defeats the purpose. I feed my Ca reactor with a MJ1200 I had laying around. Works great. It did take me a long time to get my CO2 adjusted because the needle valve I am using is pure kaka. I did noticed the unit does not keep up with the alkalinity well if I run the second chamber pH above 6.8. Once I keep it between 6.6-6.8 from the second chamber, things stay rock solid. Mine is a pretty big unit though. I use no other supplements whatsoever. Alberto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Hind January 30, 2003 Share January 30, 2003 Gator-It looks like your getting more with less! Just wondering why you decided to lower the bubs and drips? I have read of people in RC that will palce about 20 Lb of aragonite sand or crushed coral in their sumps and it dissolves half by the end of the year I have read that crushed coral w/o water flowing through it causes the Alk and PH to drop in the tank due to calcite crystals forming on the media surface. It causes it to precipitate from the water. Has any one else heard that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pez January 30, 2003 Share January 30, 2003 The fluidized bed type calcium reactors are very popular in Europe from what I under stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgasmd January 31, 2003 Share January 31, 2003 I have read that crushed coral w/o water flowing through it causes the Alk and PH to drop in the tank due to calcite crystals forming on the media surface. It causes it to precipitate from the water. Has any one else heard that? Yes, I have. Actually this is the reason why crush coral beds tend to turn into one big block of rock after a while int anks where either kalk or Ca reactors are run. I read an article about it a while ago, but can't remember where. I think I got it off a search in RC though when I saw my previous crush coral bed doing it. As far as the fluidised reactors in Europe, I really don't know. I correspond with a guy in England that has a fairly large tank and he has a reactor similar to the ones used here. It is a Koralith or something like that. He tells me those and the Deltec (spelling??) units are the most popular there. Don't know about the rest of Europe though. Alberto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatortailale January 31, 2003 Share January 31, 2003 I think it was just blowing the excess CO2 i was feeding it through the system and into the tank. I had supressed PH levels. PH was at like 7.95 at 7:00 am each day. Now this week it has been at 8.1 plus at 7:00 am this week Only catch will be that my pinpoint monitor may need battery change. No the low battery light in not on yet, but I remember in the past that I get reported high PH about 2 weeks prior to battery running out. I'll have to change it this weekend when I get chance to buy one. I"M praying that it's just a more stable tank that is keeping pH up and not my battery. ALSO: when I was helping michael, i noticed was barely dripping his effluent. Yes he is running it on a 30 gal tank and i have a 125, but for a year I ran it with a faster drip rate than bubbles and never seemed like it did much to keep up with alk demand. With my current rates (bubbles and effluent drip) I have tested the highest alk coming out of effluent I have ever had. I'll test again tonight to see where it is. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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